Trinity

[Sculptor]

How Trinity is possible if Son is united to Father but Father is the highest and knows certain things, like the end of time, that Son doesn't know?

It's not in the Bible.
It's a syncretic borrowing of Paganism.
Read 3 witches, 3 fates, triglyphs, 3 hares, Yggdrasil's three fold root, ad nauseam

It was nonsense then and remains so.

[bahman]

How Trinity is possible if Son is united to Father but Father is the highest and knows certain things, like the end of time, that Son doesn't know?

It's not in the Bible.
It's a syncretic borrowing of Paganism.
Read 3 witches, 3 fates, triglyphs, 3 hares, Yggdrasil's three fold root, ad nauseam

It was nonsense then and remains so.

I see. Why people believe such a nonsense?

[Sculptor]

How Trinity is possible if Son is united to Father but Father is the highest and knows certain things, like the end of time, that Son doesn't know?

It's not in the Bible.
It's a syncretic borrowing of Paganism.
Read 3 witches, 3 fates, triglyphs, 3 hares, Yggdrasil's three fold root, ad nauseam

It was nonsense then and remains so.

I see. Why people believe such a nonsense?

People love to seek easy answers and like to believe in magic. Why they do - I cannot say, except that some people would rather die than THINK.
Thinking is hard.
In my household as a child the air was full of superstition; black cats, wearing green, number 13, walking under ladders, touch wood, salt over the shoulder, fingers crossed, don't cross on the stairs. My Grandmother and Mother would seem to collect them like bubble gum cards.
I seemed to know how bloody stupid it was, and this gave me a skepticism for life.
I guess I'm lucky (irony intended).

[Averroes]

Discussion relocation for a discussion between members Immanuel Can and Averroes that arose on various threads and is being transferred here due to a concern of topic relevance.

History of discussion:

The discussion started on the following thread:viewtopic.php?p=474759#p474759
And it was then transferred to: viewtopic.php?p=474855#p474855
And after about nearly a week of discussion it is now being relocated on the present thread until further notice!

Below is the repost of the post that necessitated the sudden transfer to the present thread after about a week of discussion on the thread: viewtopic.php?p=475337#p475337

Repost:

1. John 8:58 ESV: Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

That statement clearly does not say that Jesus was God.

Yeah, actually, it does.  And you can see that the Jewish authorities knew it does too, because as the passage says, they immediately took up stones to stone him for blasphemy.  They were quite familiar with the use of the words "I AM" as a name of God.

The problem here is that biblical Jesus didn't say his name was "I AM", he just said at the time the statement was made that Abraham had already passed away whereas he exists. Now, a man saying that he exists is obviously saying something true!  This is obvious! The question now is why would biblical Jesus say something so obviously true?

Let us read the verses before John 8:58 to understand why biblical Jesus made such an obvious statement. There is something profound here for those who understand!

• 39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
  
  “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
  42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”[John 8:39-47]

In that passage,  biblical Jesus was telling some Jews that they were looking to kill him for telling the truth. And he also explained that this was because they followed the accursed devil and thus they didn't understand what he was saying. The accursed devil misguides whoever follows him. After he made this speech, biblical Jesus proved what he had just said previously by saying something evidently true (ie before Abraham existed and now he(Jesus) exists), and what happened next is exactly that: they wanted to kill him! So his point was proved for whoever could understand his speech!

What is also very interesting in that long passage is that through and through biblical Jesus was clearly saying that he was sent by God (ie he was a messenger of God) and he also made it abundantly clear that he was not God. Yet Trinitarian Christians don't understand that and they think of him as God Himself. They too didn't and still don't understand him, same like some Jews who wanted to stone him.

As can be clearly seen from the Bible itself,  biblical Jesus never claimed to be God. Rather the contrary is true as he clearly stated in numerous verses of the Bible that he was not God, but only a messenger of God as shown in the verses quote above and also Acts 2:22 and so many others.

So I ask: why do Trinitarians still hold on to something that barely makes intellectual sense to them? What makes them hold on to such type of evident misguidance as the Trinity? Why don't they believe and understand biblical Jesus when he says he was sent by God and he himself was not God?

According to John 8:44, biblical Jesus says that it is because they follow the accursed devil, which he says is their father.

Any thoughts?

[Immanuel Can]

Discussion relocation for a discussion between members Immanuel Can and Averroes that arose on various threads and is being transferred here due to a concern of topic relevance.

Averroes will be here by himself. He's coming over here to get away from a topic he doesn't like, and I ain't gonna play with him.

[Veritas Aequitas]

............

As can be clearly seen from the Bible itself,  biblical Jesus never claimed to be God. Rather the contrary is true as he clearly stated in numerous verses of the Bible that he was not God, but only a messenger of God as shown in the verses quote above and also Acts 2:22 and so many others.

So I ask: why do Trinitarians still hold on to something that barely makes intellectual sense to them? What makes them hold on to such type of evident misguidance as the Trinity? Why don't they believe and understand biblical Jesus when he says he was sent by God and he himself was not God?

According to John 8:44, biblical Jesus says that it is because they follow the accursed devil, which he says is their father.

Any thoughts?

You are so ignorant and desperate to the extend of resorting to deception.

I am a non-theist but I understand the Christians and the Trinitarians' perspective.
If you had read the previous threads here you would have noted the common true principles of trinity in reality, i.e. the same H2O in water, steam and ice, etc.

Note the example of the the individual ocean/seas, iceberg, mist, which are all part and interdependent of the whole body of water in the world.

In the case of the Trinity in Christianity, analogically,
God [the Father] is the whole body of water in the world and universe,
Jesus [the son] is merely analogically one of ocean with its individual characteristics, yet part of the WHOLE.

Throughout the Gospel, Jesus never claimed to be 'the Father' which is the Absolute God.
Thus Jesus never claimed he is the Absolute God [the Father].
Jesus always claimed he is the Son of the Father which is not in the physical but in the divine sense.

Thus when Christians claimed Jesus is God, it is in the sense of God-as-Son-of-the-Father.
It just like the individual ocean claiming they are the universal wholeness of H20.

In business, a Corporation is an legal entity by itself, but it very common for an CEO to represent himself as THE CORPORATION.

When Jesus claimed;

• John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

he was speaking in two senses, i.e.
He was referring to Abraham in the physical sense,
while the "I AM" of Jesus is not in the physical sense but in the spiritual sense as Son [spiritual] of the Father [spiritual].

Point is the claim by Christians that Jesus is in one sense God [not as the Absolute God (THE Father)] - is supported by many other verses throughout the Gospels, e.g.

• "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me" (John 17:20-21).
  
  John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Yes, Jesus is a messenger in one sense since he did deliver messages to the masses, but you cannot be that ignorant and stupid not to take into context all other verses [e.g. above] that cohere Jesus is also 'God' in terms of 'Son of the Father [the Absolute God].

In other perspective within those who are "enlightened", there is the idea of the losing one ego and being ONE with the Universe while at the same time physically they are conditioned in the physical world.

You are so afixed with the term 'messenger-only' because you are very desperate in imposing that term [attributed to Mohammad] from your inherently evil and fake Quran onto the pacifist Gospel.
Your Mohammad has has no spiritual credibility in comparison Jesus as God in the sense of Son-of-the-Father [Absolute God].

Here is the supporting for the fake Quran thus its fake messenger.
There are holes in the narrative of the Quran.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V73m8RPIIg

[Averroes]

If you had read the previous threads here you would have noted the common true principles of trinity in reality, i.e. the same H2O in water, steam and ice, etc.

You are ignorant and lazy. There are more than three states of matter in reality according to contemporary physics.
From Wikipedia:

• In physics, a state of matter is one of the distinct forms in which matter can exist. Four states of matter are observable in everyday life: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Many intermediate states are known to exist, such as liquid crystal, and some states only exist under extreme conditions, such as Bose–Einstein condensates, neutron-degenerate matter, and quark–gluon plasma, which only occur, respectively, in situations of extreme cold, extreme density, and extremely high energy. For a complete list of all exotic states of matter, see the list of states of matter.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_matter

Note the example of the the individual ocean/seas, iceberg, mist, which are all part and interdependent of the whole body of water in the world.

In the case of the Trinity in Christianity, analogically,
God [the Father] is the whole body of water in the world and universe,
Jesus [the son] is merely analogically one of ocean with its individual characteristics, yet part of the WHOLE.

That's indeed how some Trinitarians say they think about their god. But there is then a contradiction with that interpretation or analogy. That's obvious as even you yourself as the most intellectually challenged member of the forum can (I hope) see that. Let me explain how it is contradictory.

Throughout the Gospel, Jesus never claimed to be 'the Father' which is the Absolute God.
Thus Jesus never claimed he is the Absolute God [the Father].

Indeed, biblical Jesus never claimed to be God, the Absolute Who is metaphorically referred to as the Father in the Bible (both the OT and NT). Moreover, biblical Jesus clearly distinguished himself from the biblical Father throughout the Gospels, Whom he said had sent him. However now, when one says of the biblical Father that He is the Absolute God, then one is also saying that He is independent of everything. That's the essence or definition of being the Absolute. As is said in Genesis 1:1, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

So, if one says God the Absolute, then He cannot depend on anything. Therefore the interdependence analogy is not applicable to Him as that would contradict Him being the Absolute. So the Trinitarian analogy of interdependence must be rejected as a false analogy on that ground.

Point is the claim by Christians that Jesus is in one sense God [not as the Absolute God (THE Father)] - is supported by many other verses throughout the Gospels, e.g.

• "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me" (John 17:20-21).
  
  John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

The problem then with that interpretation is that if biblical Jesus being in the Father according to John 17:20-21 and John 14:20 makes him God, then the disciples and everyone who believes too should be considered God as they too are in the Father as Jesus prayed for them to be "in us" according to the same John 17:20-21.

• 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

So if according to John 17:20-21 everyone who believes is also in the Father, does that make them God too? Moreover, as everyone is in everyone according to John 17:20-23 and John 14:20, and they are all brought to complete unity according to John 17:23, do all Trinitarians consider themselves to be God as well? As far as surveyed so far, Trinitarians have answered no to both those questions. But I invite other Trinitarians to answer those questions and to tell me whether they consider themselves to be God according to John 17:20-23 and John 14:20.

[Averroes]

Discussion relocation for a discussion between members Immanuel Can and Averroes that arose on various threads and is being transferred here due to a concern of topic relevance.

Averroes will be here by himself.

You are misguided and wrong again.

He's coming over here to get away from a topic he doesn't like, and I ain't gonna play with him. 

You said that everyone should be given a chance to defend their position. Remember:

Everybody deserves a chance to defend their position.

Now you are being given such a great opportunity to defend and explain your fundamental belief and you are quitting again and you are letting the task to be deferred to Veritas! That's fine with me though if you are happy with him being your authoritative representative.

[Veritas Aequitas]

If you had read the previous threads here you would have noted the common true principles of trinity in reality, i.e. the same H2O in water, steam and ice,

etc

.

You are ignorant and lazy. There are more than three states of matter in reality according to contemporary physics.
From Wikipedia:

• In physics, a state of matter is one of the distinct forms in which matter can exist. Four states of matter are observable in everyday life: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Many intermediate states are known to exist, such as liquid crystal, and some states only exist under extreme conditions, such as Bose–Einstein condensates, neutron-degenerate matter, and quark–gluon plasma, which only occur, respectively, in situations of extreme cold, extreme density, and extremely high energy. For a complete list of all exotic states of matter, see the list of states of matter.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_matter

Your trying to be smart in fact is making you short-sighted and stupid.

Where did I state there are only 3 states of matter, note my mentioned of 'etc.' in my above statement.
When we start at the level of the atom, then it is common to all physical matter wherein there infinite variations.

My point is whatever is an essence can manifest in various states, one example is the essence of water as H2O.
This analogy is relevant of the Christian's Trinity with God as the fundamental essence manifesting in 3 states.

Note the example of the the individual ocean/seas, iceberg, mist, which are all part and interdependent of the whole body of water in the world.

In the case of the Trinity in Christianity, analogically,
God [the Father] is the whole body of water in the world and universe,
Jesus [the son] is merely analogically one of ocean with its individual characteristics, yet part of the WHOLE.

That's indeed how some Trinitarians say they think about their god. But there is then a contradiction with that interpretation or analogy. That's obvious as even you yourself as the most intellectually challenged member of the forum can (I hope) see that. Let me explain how it is contradictory.

I don't see any contradiction at all.

Throughout the Gospel, Jesus never claimed to be 'the Father' which is the Absolute God.
Thus Jesus never claimed he is the Absolute God [the Father].

Indeed, biblical Jesus never claimed to be God, the Absolute Who is metaphorically referred to as the Father in the Bible (both the OT and NT). Moreover, biblical Jesus clearly distinguished himself from the biblical Father throughout the Gospels, Whom he said had sent him. However now, when one says of the biblical Father that He is the Absolute God, then one is also saying that He is independent of everything. That's the essence or definition of being the Absolute. As is said in Genesis 1:1, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

So, if one says God the Absolute, then He cannot depend on anything. Therefore the interdependence analogy is not applicable to Him as that would contradict Him being the Absolute. So the Trinitarian analogy of interdependence must be rejected as a false analogy on that ground.

God in this case is not Absolutely-Absolute where the Trinity is concern in relation to the divine soul of the individual.
Obviously you are short-sighted in this point where you are focused on the individual as the empirical self rather than the soul as the innermost essence which is not the physical-empirical self.
God is also not Absolutely-Absolute in terms of God's creation, otherwise where is the link between God as his creations - the Universe and all else that is created by God.
Where God is Absolutely-Absolute and independent of his creations is with reference to the individual consciousness and ego of his creations and humans.

If you refer to the Hindu-Vedanta, Brahman is the Absolute, but not the Absolutely-Absolute thus co-exists with the Atman of the individual.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_(Hinduism)

Ātman, sometimes spelled without a diacritic as atman in scholarly literature,[11] means "real self" of the individual,[1][10] "innermost essence",[12] and soul.[1][13] Atman, in Hinduism, is considered as eternal, imperishable, beyond time, "not the same as body or mind or consciousness, but is something beyond which permeates all these".[14][15][16] In Advaita vedanta, it is "pure, undifferentiated, self-shining consciousness,"[17] the witness-consciousness which observes all phenomena yet is not touched by it.

In the analogy with reference to water, ice and steam;
Jesus is like the solid iceberg floating in an Ocean, while the iceberg look physically different at one level, there is in fact no difference between the iceberg and the Ocean from the perspective of H2O.
The iceberg is merely a cluster of compact H20 molecules.

Thus from the perspective of the essence of Jesus [not the empirical Jesus], Jesus is the Son-of-the-Father activated by the Holy Spirit.

Point is the claim by Christians that Jesus is in one sense God [not as the Absolute God (THE Father)] - is supported by many other verses throughout the Gospels, e.g.

• "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me" (John 17:20-21).
  
  John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

The problem then with that interpretation is that if biblical Jesus being in the Father according to John 17:20-21 and John 14:20 makes him God, then the disciples and everyone who believes too should be considered God as they too are in the Father as Jesus prayed for them to be "in us" according to the same John 17:20-21.

• 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

So if according to John 17:20-21 everyone who believes is also in the Father, does that make them God too? Moreover, as everyone is in everyone according to John 17:20-23 and John 14:20, and they are all brought to complete unity according to John 17:23, do all Trinitarians consider themselves to be God as well? As far as surveyed so far, Trinitarians have answered no to both those questions. But I invite other Trinitarians to answer those questions and to tell me whether they consider themselves to be God according to John 17:20-23 and John 14:20.

As with the water analogy,
God is the ocean, Jesus is the largest iceberg while the individual humans are water-droplets.
They are the same H2O but it is only their concentration are different.

In Jesus' case, the physical Jesus was chosen specifically and endowed with a greater concentration of God essence for God's intention.
Since the individual humans are merely water droplets they are still H20 [as part of the whole H20 wholeness] but do not have son-of-THE-FATHER status like Jesus.

Btw, I am only interpreting the above from Christianity's perspective, not my own personal belief which is non-theistic.

[Averroes]

Where did I state there are only 3 states of matter, note my mentioned of 'etc.' in my above statement.

You are stupid. You said:

If you had read the previous threads here you would have noted the common true principles of trinity in reality, i.e. the same H2O in water, steam and ice, etc.

The word "trinity" means "a group of three". What kind of stupid person are you to not know that "trinity" means three? Are you that lazy that you can't do your basic homework as opening a standard English dictionary? Yet again I have to spoon feed you with such basic knowledge.

trinity: A group of three people or things.
https://www.lexico.com/definition/trinity

My point is whatever is an essence can manifest in various states, one example is the essence of water as H2O.
This analogy is relevant of the Christian's Trinity with God as the fundamental essence manifesting in 3 states.

Your point was that you are stupid.

I don't see any contradiction at all.

That's because you are too stupid.

God in this case is not Absolutely-Absolute where the Trinity is concern in relation to the divine soul of the individual.
Obviously you are short-sighted in this point where you are focused on the individual as the empirical self rather than the soul as the innermost essence which is not the physical-empirical self.
God is also not Absolutely-Absolute in terms of God's creation, otherwise where is the link between God as his creations - the Universe and all else that is created by God.
Where God is Absolutely-Absolute and independent of his creations is with reference to the individual consciousness and ego of his creations and humans.

If you refer to the Hindu-Vedanta, Brahman is the Absolute, but not the Absolutely-Absolute thus co-exists with the Atman of the individual.

Hindu Vedanta, for example Advaita Vedanta among others, are among the means through which the Vedas were corrupted and such corruptions of the Vedas has led many Hindus nowadays to the point where they worship filthy animals such rats, monkeys, snakes and whatnot even though they are explicitely forbidden from doing so in the Vedas (Yajur Veda 40:9). And to my knowledge I know no Christian (as of yet) who worship these filthy animals.

Hindus worshipping rats: https://youtu.be/2OOs1l8Fajc
Hindus worshipping monkeys: https://youtu.be/5kxtruVHfWo

Christianity has indeed been very badly corrupted but clearly not to the extent of Hinduism so far. So a Hindu Vedanta perspective is not applicable to Christianity.
And this is clear from the Christian Bible itself, where biblical Jesus said that by himself he can do nothing but he only seeks the will of the Father Who sent him.

• I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me. [John 5:30]

So in the Bible, God, the Absolute is independent of anything and everything depends on Him, even biblical Jesus completely depended on the Father according to John 5:30.
Clearly, according to John 5:30, biblical Jesus cannot be God. Biblical Jesus acknowledged that he was weak by himself in John 5:30 whereas God the Absolute is the Almighty.

PS: On the corruptions of the Vedas: Sanjay Dwivedi who was formerly a Hindu scholar who had memorised the Vedas and later converted to Islam, explains to us in the following video how the Vedas were corrupted over time: https://youtu.be/tDUpVwY8Q-E

[attofishpi]

Averroes will you ever think for yourself or will you insist that words written down by men over a thousand year ago are the indisputable word of Allah\God...? <- quest_ion.

[Averroes]

Averroes will you ever think for yourself or will you insist that words written down by men over a thousand year ago are the indisputable word of Allah\God...? <- quest_ion.

This thread is about Christianity and particularly Trinitarian Christianity. So, I have to interprete your question in relation to Christianity. It is a historical fact that the real Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) who was only a man whom God chose to be His messenger, spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic, God, the Almighty is referred to as Allah. Indeed, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) called God by His Name "Allah". The following YouTube video is from a young Jewish scholar who confirms that in Aramaic, God the Almighty is referred by His Name Allah:https://youtu.be/oYROeBmTBbw

[attofishpi]

Averroes will you ever think for yourself or will you insist that words written down by men over a thousand year ago are the indisputable word of Allah\God...? <- quest_ion.

This thread is about Christianity and particularly Trinitarian Christianity. So, I have to interprete your question in relation to Christianity. It is a historical fact that the real Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) who was only a man whom God chose to be His messenger, spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic, God, the Almighty is referred to as Allah. Indeed, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) called God by His Name "Allah". The following YouTube video is from a young Jewish scholar who confirms that in Aramaic, God the Almighty is referred by His Name Allah:https://youtu.be/oYROeBmTBbw

One will find all sorts on an internet. And all sorts in books of over a thousand years ago. ALL made by a WO/MAN.

What if I told you that I know Jesus is alive and well, he lives in California and sometimes visits his friend, a sage that lives in a penthouse somewhere in California?

[Averroes]

What if I told you that I know Jesus is alive and well, he lives in California and sometimes visits his friend, a sage that lives in a penthouse somewhere in California?

I would say that's fine with me. And in return I would inform you that there is also a Moses who lives in California:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_R._Moses

[attofishpi]

What if I told you that I know Jesus is alive and well, he lives in California and sometimes visits his friend, a sage that lives in a penthouse somewhere in California?

I would say that's fine with me. And in return I would inform you that there is also a Moses who lives in California:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_R._Moses

It's the there is also "a" that is the problem here.. I do hope you under_stand.