Trinity

[Averroes]

You are a bossy boots who thinks he knows best. But you don't.

Who does? I came on this thread to discuss the Trinity with those who believe in it. And no Christian on the forum wants to address this subject with me. I want to talk to Christians who believe in the Trinity. Where are they now? Why don't they come to discuss with me and enlighten me on the sources of their belief from their Bible. Do you want to talk to me about Trinity?

[Belinda]

You are a bossy boots who thinks he knows best. But you don't.

Who does? I came on this thread to discuss the Trinity with those who believe in it. And no Christian on the forum wants to address this subject with me. I want to talk to Christians who believe in the Trinity. Where are they now? Why don't they come to discuss with me and enlighten me on the sources of their belief from their Bible. Do you want to talk to me about Trinity?

No, because you do not even try to be objective. It is unhealthy to be unable to tolerate uncertainties.

You are not even aware there are people who think for themselves without references to any holy books or other revelations from deity.

[Averroes]

You are a bossy boots who thinks he knows best. But you don't.

Who does? I came on this thread to discuss the Trinity with those who believe in it. And no Christian on the forum wants to address this subject with me. I want to talk to Christians who believe in the Trinity. Where are they now? Why don't they come to discuss with me and enlighten me on the sources of their belief from their Bible. Do you want to talk to me about Trinity?

No, because you do not even try to be objective. It is unhealthy to be unable to tolerate uncertainties.

That's the problem with nowadays Christian. They are quick to complain, but unwilling to discuss their fundamental belief. Anyway, thank you for your contribution.

[Belinda]

Who does? I came on this thread to discuss the Trinity with those who believe in it. And no Christian on the forum wants to address this subject with me. I want to talk to Christians who believe in the Trinity. Where are they now? Why don't they come to discuss with me and enlighten me on the sources of their belief from their Bible. Do you want to talk to me about Trinity?

No, because you do not even try to be objective. It is unhealthy to be unable to tolerate uncertainties.

That's the problem with nowadays Christian. They are quick to complain, but unwilling to discuss their fundamental belief. Anyway, thank you for your contribution.

I am not a Christian. There you go again, presuming everybody has joined some group.

[Averroes]

No, because you do not even try to be objective. It is unhealthy to be unable to tolerate uncertainties.

That's the problem with nowadays Christian. They are quick to complain, but unwilling to discuss their fundamental belief. Anyway, thank you for your contribution.

I am not a Christian. There you go again, presuming everybody has joined some group.

I didn't say you were!

[Atla]

Nah, Q wasn’t stupid, for he seemed to possess a certain degree of omniscience when it came to knowing the alternate outcomes of Picard’s choices, of which Q allowed Picard to experience (at least once that I can remember – something to do with Picard wishing he had made a different choice about something in his past).

Yeah okay he also has an IQ of 2005, I just really liked the finger snap thingy

[seeds]

And as I await your rebuttal (should you choose to offer one), do you have a problem with me suggesting that the Creator of this universe, along with our ultimate purpose and eternal destiny, are infinitely more wondrous than what the Bible or the Quran have portrayed them to be?

I just want some more information about this religion/way of life you are suggesting. Is there a name for this religion you are proposing? Where can I get more information on it? I have investigated all religions I could find, practiced most of them, and finally embraced Islam.  And so far I can say with certainty that Islam is the best of all religions. But I want to investigate the religion you are suggesting. Please can you provide me some more information on it.

It’s not a “religion,” but sure, I can provide you with more information.

However, I would first like to address your statements to attofishpi...

You have shown a picture of a demolished Buddha statue in Afghanistan The Afghan can do whatever they want with their property,...

...I too have smashed all the statues and tore up all the pictures that I had before embracing Islam. Those were my properties and I disposed of them as I wished. The interesting thing is that none of those statues could protect or defend themselves when I smashed them into pieces, nor did they protest.

Well, I suggest that there comes a point where certain ancient and majestic monuments and works of art resulting from extraordinary feats of human labor, belong to all of humanity as a whole and not to just the most recent (tiny-minded) occupants of the land where the works happen to reside.

Furthermore, with the Islamic attitude in mind, then it’s just a matter of time before Muslims feel it necessary to destroy the Sphinx and the Great Pyramids because they were once a form of “idolatry” erected to honor false gods such as the pharaohs or Ra.



However, before you destroy those incredible structures of human design and engineering just because they seem like “idols” that might be an insult to Allah,...

...how about you first start out by destroying the Kaaba in Mecca...



...which, for all practical purposes, is itself nothing more than an “idol” that Muslims visit and circumambulate in a ritualistic manner, or are required to face towards whenever they are in prayer in other parts of the world.

And when it comes to your need to destroy idols, please read the following exchange I had a while back with one of our wise forum contributors named Dubious in regards to the Quran itself:

The raison d'être of Islam is the idolatry of the written word presumed sacred causing it to be severely literal, nonconformist and fundamentalist as if it were some ecumenical truth not to be negated without consequences...the implication being that idolatry is equally applicable to the written word as it is to any symbol.

....it just goes to show that no matter how much the adherents of Islam rail against any form of idolatry, in truth (if I am reading you properly), they have idolized the very words upon which Islam is founded.

You read me right. God is grounded to the written word which in practice reveals one of the most unique and intense forms of idolatry anathematizing all other forms of symbolization or spiritualization to even imagine such a being any other way. It amounts to the implosion of God within a single sacred text where the "Word" strives to make itself equal to that which it describes. Islam floats completely on the authority of those words. All other versions of credence are considered blasphemy except perhaps for a few dribblings of metaphor. In this sense, as I see it, Islam incorporates the near perfection of idolatry.

The ultimate point is, Averroes, that if you find it necessary to destroy absolutely all forms of “idolatry” on this planet, then you need to start by destroying the Kaaba, and then follow that up by destroying the Quran.
_______

[Veritas Aequitas]

Averroes, you should respect your mother and allow that her religion is her own business. Disrespect of mothers of families is not proper Muslim behaviour. Have you no father who will pull you up for disrespecting your mother?

It is a great pity that the only Muslim who frequents this board is a religious nut.You are flighty and have changed your religion too often for a reasonable man. This chopping and changing of religions rather shows you are not thinking for yourself but are a psychological chameleon who has to join something to feel real.

As for your attitude towards the Holy Trinity, there are many decent people who are Trinitarians. You are dangerously intolerant. Intolerance is often felt by converts. Have you not got an Imam who can direct you?

Herewith, Averroes is proof of how the inherent evilness within the Quran -the core of Islam - is manifesting in a Muslim subconsciously.

With Averroes insistence of doing the destruction of idols and images with glee, one should be able to sense the abhorrent evil oozing from his psyche.

If Averroes had remained a Christian - whilst he may not like the idols - he would not go about damaging idols and condone the destruction of creations of antiquity [expressions of creativeness] like what he had done and had feelings of rage for idols and statues like his Allah and Muhammad. Note the pictures of ISIS jihadists destroying statues in various Museums in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere.
I will not be surprised Averroes will become a suicide bomber or kill non-Muslims if some neural circuits are short-circuited in his brain driving him to obey the commands of Allah of the Quran literally as a religious duty.

Respect his mother??
You need to be very familiar with the Quran.
Even if he wants to respect his mother, parents, kin, relatives, his religion will not allow him to do so, that is why he is doing his evil best to convert his mother to Islam. Islam condones the killing of parents, relatives, kin and friends if they are disbelievers. Disbelief in Islam itself is recognized as a threat to Islam.

Given that the stake is [1] eternal life or [2] eternal hell, people like Averroes will selfishly opt for 1 and will have to favor Allah over his non-Muslim parents, siblings or friends.

There are loads of verses in the Quran that condone the evil-ness against one's parents who are disbelievers and pose a threat to Islam, e.g. like praying to idols etc. Note Quran 29:8, 31:15, 4:135. 9:23, 58:22, 47:32 and others.

• Quran 9:23 O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

Per 9:23 if a Muslim choose his non-Muslims parents or bethren as friends, he is a wrong-doer. The punishments for wrong-doers is Doom and be burnt in Hell eternally.
Thus to show he is not a wrong-doer to Allah the all-knowing, Averroes set about to prove his devotion to Allah by destroying all idols of his mother in his home without any empathy for the 'poor' mother.
If he had killed his mother who protected the idols, he would be highly rewarded in paradise in accordance to the verses in the Quran, the words of Allah.

There are many verses in the Quran that exhort Muslims to be kind, good, generous to their parents and others, but that is only applicable to parents IF they are Muslims themselves.

Where the reference of kindness is to non-Muslim parents, siblings, kin, relatives, friends, they are overridden by 9:23 and similar verses and the permission to kill them is sanctioned [Q5:33] if they pose the slightest threat [fasadin] to Islam.
Note disbelief in Islam is also a general threat to Islam just as even drawing of cartoons are.

[Belinda]

Veritas Aequinas wrote:

With Averroes insistence of doing the destruction of idols and images with glee, one should be able to sense the abhorrent evil oozing from his psyche.

I do. That is why I recommend him to observe the greater jihad, and to consult with his imam.

Some people , young children for instance, are unable or unwilling to be morally self- directing and need guidance from a religious community. Averroes is at present a Muslim and needs to know how a Muslim can live within the law of America or wherever he is. That is why I recommend he looks to the greater jihad, not the lesser jihad.
I see little use in fulminating against the content of the Koran, because academic discussions won't stop criminal behaviour .

as for Averroes' attitude to his mother, it is unusual for a Muslim to proselytise, and I doubt if his imam would approve.

Here's a list of the qualities of Allah


Quality Meaning
Beneficence All good
Immanence Throughout the universe
Merciful All forgiving/ compassionate
Omnipotence All powerful
Transcendence Beyond the universe

[attofishpi]

as for Averroes' attitude to his mother, it is unusual for a Muslim to proselytise, and I doubt if his imam would approve.

WHAT!? THAT'S ALL THEY ATTEMPT TO DO.

[Belinda]

as for Averroes' attitude to his mother, it is unusual for a Muslim to proselytise, and I doubt if his imam would approve.

WHAT!? THAT'S ALL THEY ATTEMPT TO DO.

In Islam, inviting people to the religion is a meritorious activity. The Quran states, "There is no (permission) to force (anyone into following this) way of life. The truth stands clear from error. Whoever rejects falsehood and believes in Allah has grasped a firm hand-hold that will never break, for Allah hears and knows (all things). Al Baqarah ('The Cow', 2:256 – the operative phrase /lā ikrāha fī d-dīni/ literally translates as "within the religion there is no hate-mongering", which makes more difficult to relate this ayah to the topic of proselytism)". Muslim scholars consider this passage to mean that force is not to be used to convert someone to Islam. Muslims consider inviting others to Islam to be the mission originally carried out by the Prophets of Allah and is now a collective duty of Muslims. In the Quran Allah states, "Invite (others) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching, and reason with them in ways that are best. Your Lord knows best who is straying from His path and who is being guided (towards it). An Nahl ('The Bee', 16:125 – here the operative phrase /udʿu ilà sabīli rabbika/ "Invite (command to a single male subject) to the way of your Lord" expresses the element direction /ilà/ "to" that is missing in 'The Cow', 2:256)"

I and some unbeliever friends were invited to the local mosque by the congregation. We were made welcome in a normal friendly sort of manner. There was no attempt at pro-active let alone divisive proselytising. I do not think the Muslims would have wanted me to pray with the Muslimas because I ask questions.

The best way to proselytise is to demonstrate the effect of the religious practise. My visit to the mosque increased my respect for Islam. RCs I have met increased my respect for RC, which I would not have felt if I had based my impression solely on the myth and the doctrine.

Bad people use ideologies and religious practices to legitimate their greed , egotism, and violence

[Averroes]

I see that my previous posts have caused some members to get more enraged and wild as I had expected. This makes me laugh. That's good. The following is going to enrage them even more God willing.

_____________

as for Averroes' attitude to his mother, it is unusual for a Muslim to proselytise,

Inviting people to the worship of God, the Almighty alone is a duty not only in Islam but in Christianity as well. As a matter of fact the first person to educate me about God, the Almighty was my mother herself! As I already said previously, the first religious scripture that I read was the Christian Bible which was handed to me directly by my mom herself! And I read the Bible since I was about 13 years old. So proselytising as you say is, as far as I am concerned, a family tradition! We love God, the Almighty in my family and we try to live our life in accordance with His commandments. For example, when I was convincing my mom about the abomination of idols and statues, I didn't need to quote the Holy Quran but it was sufficient for me to just quote directly from the Bible that she handed to me when I was still a little boy. And that was sufficient for her to understand that these despicable idols and statues were to be destroyed. For example, the following passages of the Bible were sufficient to prove my case to her that the idols and statues were to be destroyed:

• And God spoke all these words:
  2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
  3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
  4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.[Exodus 20:1-6]

What was interesting in quoting the above biblical passage to her was that she often told me as a kid that our Lord God the Almighty is a jealous God. She told me that so often that these words became engraved in my memory! I owe her big time for having given me such a great education at a young age.

There are many other verses throughout the Christian Bible which strictly prohibits idol worship. Another verse is in Leviticus:

• 26 “‘Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the Lord your God. [Leviticus 26:1]

And there are many more verses like those. Little by little, when I showed all these verses to my mom she understood that we had been mistaken in housing those abominations and little by little it became clear to her that they were to be destroyed. As we are not arrogant people, when we make mistakes we readily recognize them and start to amend after having repented to God, the Almighty. From there I happily took the responsibility of doing what had to be done. And as I said, I greatly enjoyed my task of smashing to pieces those abominations.

I also got the opportunity of informing my parents about Islam. My mom showed great appreciation to listening to the recitation of the Holy Quran in Arabic. No need to say, she particularly liked the recitation of Surah Maryam which is named after the mother of prophet Jesus(peace be upon him). She likes it when I tell her what the Holy Quran says about the story of Mary(may Allah be pleased with her). She now even says "God willing" when she intends to do something in the future! The interesting thing is that I don't recall having told her to say that! She must have picked that up by herself from somewhere else. That was a very good thing. Of course, many of you will not like all these good news for me, but who cares what you think concerning my life?! It makes me laugh when you and others vent your frustration like cry babies!

Anyway, many Christians embrace Islam when they come to know about it. For example Yusuf Estes who is himself a convert from the US has helped thousands of Christians to embrace Islam. I like his approach of inviting people to Islam. In the following video his warmth in inviting people to Islam is clearly felt:https://youtu.be/j2mDpahBPx8

My conversion to Islam was not difficult. Praise be to Allah, the Almighty. When I compare my story with that of some Hindus like Sanjay Dwivedi in India, I understand how my environment made it easy for me. Sanjay Dwivedi's conversion to Islam was very hard. He himself has narrated it on the following YT video:https://youtu.be/tDUpVwY8Q-E

Even though Sanjay Dwivedi was born in an extremely wealthy and politically influential Brahmin family in India, after he announced his conversion to his parents, he was beaten so hard by his parents that he ended up in hospital for seven months!!  The following is what he said in the YT video.

Sanjay Dwivedi said:

• In my family I have three elder sisters. I am the only single youngest son of my parents. In my house you will find all sorts of biggish people of political parties like Chief ministers of a state, Police commissioner, Collector advocate etc… In my family there are two groups of politicians. One is Congress and the other BJP.  And my father and grandfather are both BJP politicians.
  (...)
  My father used to listen one or the other comments from opposition "Look he poses to be religious, his son has left religiosity after so much of studies in religion." He(my father) used to take all his grudges on me because of all these statements. These broken teeth(he shows his teeth) are the reward of that, I was beaten hard enough to get the teeth broken. I had scalp injury too. I got electric shock on my feet too. I got my leg bone broken so was admitted in my sister’s hospital. I stayed in sister’s hospital for 7 months, but as soon as I became capable of walking, I absconded from the hospital. I was adamant, but I knew the results. The result could have been even worst. So run. I reached Bombay.

For your information, the BJP is the party of Modi. These people are real savages. Idol worship has hardened their hearts so much that this is how they treat their own son. Fortunately for me, in our understanding of the Christian Bible, my surroundings already knew that idol worship is a very bad thing and were not so much attached to pieces of clay to the point of beating their own like an animal!
Hinduism and Buddhism being throat deep in idol worship has rendered the hearts of Hindus and Buddhists so hard that they do not have mercy even for their own! Besides what else can one expect from someone who worships filthy animals such as rats, snakes, monkeys, cows and whatnot! Anyway, the story of Sanjay Dwivedi had a happy ending according to his narration in the video. Even though his parents eventually renounced him as their son, he got married and was blessed with a daughter.
______________

Averroes is at present a Muslim and needs to know how a Muslim can live within the law of America or wherever he is.

For your information smashing idols that one possesses is completely legal in America. For example, in the following YT video Christian Pastor Gino Jennings can be seen smashing an idol to pieces in his own church:https://youtu.be/5-o88dE0AJ0?t=500

Destroying idols is not much of a problem for many Christians who know the Bible. Even on this thread itself, attofishpi gave me his consent to smash idols to pieces. He is from the US if I am not mistaken. Whereas in a place like India or Burma or other such sh*th*le, I would have been hanged or lynched for as little as talking about such a thing! But that shouldn't be surprising for a people who treat their cows and monkeys better than their own men and women!

[Veritas Aequitas]

Veritas Aequinas wrote:

With Averroes insistence of doing the destruction of idols and images with glee, one should be able to sense the abhorrent evil oozing from his psyche.

I do. That is why I recommend him to observe the greater jihad, and to consult with his imam.

Some people , young children for instance, are unable or unwilling to be morally self- directing and need guidance from a religious community. Averroes is at present a Muslim and needs to know how a Muslim can live within the law of America or wherever he is. That is why I recommend he looks to the greater jihad, not the lesser jihad.
I see little use in fulminating against the content of the Koran, because academic discussions won't stop criminal behaviour .

as for Averroes' attitude to his mother, it is unusual for a Muslim to proselytise, and I doubt if his imam would approve.

Here's a list of the qualities of Allah

Quality Meaning
Beneficence All good
Immanence Throughout the universe
Merciful All forgiving/ compassionate
Omnipotence All powerful
Transcendence Beyond the universe

Nope what is stated in the Quran, Allah is not-all-Good nor all forgiving/compassionate to all human beings but ONlY to Muslims.

I wrote the following above;

• There are loads of verses in the Quran that condone the evil-ness against one's parents who are disbelievers and pose a threat to Islam, e.g. like praying to idols etc. Note Quran 29:8, 31:15, 4:135. 9:23, 58:22, 47:32 and others.
  
  • Quran 9:23 O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

Do you have anything from the Quran to counter the above?

[Veritas Aequitas]

as for Averroes' attitude to his mother, it is unusual for a Muslim to proselytise, and I doubt if his imam would approve.

WHAT!? THAT'S ALL THEY ATTEMPT TO DO.

In Islam, inviting people to the religion is a meritorious activity. The Quran states, "There is no (permission) to force (anyone into following this) way of life. The truth stands clear from error. Whoever rejects falsehood and believes in Allah has grasped a firm hand-hold that will never break, for Allah hears and knows (all things). Al Baqarah ('The Cow', 2:256 – the operative phrase /lā ikrāha fī d-dīni/ literally translates as "within the religion there is no hate-mongering", which makes more difficult to relate this ayah to the topic of proselytism)". Muslim scholars consider this passage to mean that force is not to be used to convert someone to Islam. Muslims consider inviting others to Islam to be the mission originally carried out by the Prophets of Allah and is now a collective duty of Muslims. In the Quran Allah states, "Invite (others) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching, and reason with them in ways that are best. Your Lord knows best who is straying from His path and who is being guided (towards it). An Nahl ('The Bee', 16:125 – here the operative phrase /udʿu ilà sabīli rabbika/ "Invite (command to a single male subject) to the way of your Lord" expresses the element direction /ilà/ "to" that is missing in 'The Cow', 2:256)"

I and some unbeliever friends were invited to the local mosque by the congregation. We were made welcome in a normal friendly sort of manner. There was no attempt at pro-active let alone divisive proselytising. I do not think the Muslims would have wanted me to pray with the Muslimas because I ask questions.

The best way to proselytise is to demonstrate the effect of the religious practise. My visit to the mosque increased my respect for Islam. RCs I have met increased my respect for RC, which I would not have felt if I had based my impression solely on the myth and the doctrine.

Bad people use ideologies and religious practices to legitimate their greed , egotism, and violence

It is unfortunate you are ignorant of the whole of the Quran and the overriding evil verses therein.

The supposedly 'good' Muslims whom you met and has a good impression of, are either ignorant of the whole Quran or they are merely putting a front to deceive you or are attempting to proselytize.

There are loads of verses in the Quran that command Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims otherwise they will end up in hell. Here is one verse among the many;

• Quran 3:28 [Pickthall] Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

The point is all these contractual evil laden verses against non-Muslims are overriding and imperatives for all Muslims who are contracted with Allah.
Whatever rare 'good' verses toward non-Muslims in the Quran are situational and they are abrogated by later evil laden verses.

All Muslims as contracted with Allah are obligated as a religious duty to hate non-Muslims [condemned as pigs, asses, apes, worst of creatures, etc.] and kill non-Muslims if there are the slightest threats [fasadin] to the religion of Islam.

The majority of "Muslims" are good people because they are good human beings and not because they are good-Muslims.
A contracted good-Muslim is one who will obey and carry out all the commands [within his abilities] in the Quran which comprise commands of hate and killings of non-Muslims.

Do you have any counters to the above?

[Belinda]

So here am I taking up the cause for Islam against both Averroes and V Aequitas !

For example, when I was convincing my mom about the abomination of idols and statues,

Wrote Averroes.

You think idols are statues and such like material objects. Then you are a naive literalist. Idolatry is probably the biggest sin Muslims can commit. But not only for Muslims. Worshipping any material thing is stupid whether it is a holy statue or an expensive car. But idolatry is more than worship of a material thing. Idolatry is conceited vanity that leads a man to worship a religious doctrine or any other ideology because he mistakes religious doctrine for God. Religious doctrines, same as cars and statues, are artefacts made by men. Allah is uncaused by man. If you worship your holy book or your holy prophet you are committing idolatry.To submit to Allah means you worship Allah alone. Islam is a way to Allah but only if you understand Islam is a vehicle that conveys you there.

What I say goes for any religion. A religious doctrine is not God. A secular ideology is not truth. True submission is relinquishing all certainties. Let go of all certainties is the meaning of Inshallah.

As quoted by Veritas Aequinas:

Quran 3:28 [Pickthall] Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

That is good advice for anybody who seeks the good, the true, and the beautiful, whether or no they are medieval Arabians.