I'm a Theist

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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attofishpi
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by attofishpi »

BardoXV wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:11 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:58 am
BardoXV wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:47 pm

A parabel is a made up story to illustrate a point.
That sounds an awful lot like 'parable' and is actually a homophone to it. That's amazing.
I suppose the next question is, was Jesus born with all the knowledge, or did he need to learn it. If he was born with it did he also know that one day some people would speak English?
Ah...nice.
Not sure what you mean by 'all the knowledge'. Once thing I am pretty certain about, is that Jesus knew from the outset that he was going to allow himself to be crucified. Pretty heavy know_ledge to have to deal with your entire life up to that point.
English is a construct of his 'God' system, so yes, he would have been aware of its destiny, I am pretty certain.
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Age »

DMT wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:13 am
Age wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:08 pm
DMT wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:44 am

And your notion of nature is very churchy. How Christian of you to believe that the term god is related to the human intellect. Or how dumb.......how bizaare your idea about nature only exists in what you read. Very churchy and Christian as well. Never bothered to actually put the books down and step out into it. See it all the time. Tourists.
.
Once again, I have absolutely NO idea who this is targeted at.
Simple. intelligence and reason can be performed without subjective awareness. You function interpersonally at the level of a laptop computer. Nothing to brag about psychologically imaturity isn't philosophy. .
The 'you' word gets used, BUT, I am STILL NO closer to knowing.

EVERY thing I have read does NOT relate.
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:38 am "I am frequently INFORMED, in this forum, that there is NO ONE actual Truth of things."

Yeah, they're wrong. Truth (what is real) exists.


"Was that, what 'you' call, "dumbed" down enough, for 'you'?"

Not really. Don't worry about it, I'm thick from time to time.
And, as I have stated before, I am very slow and simple. I am truly unable to express in a way that I get FULLY understood. Being able to communicate in a way so that I can be FULLY understood is what I am still in the process of learning here.

So I would suggest that 'you' NOT understanding me is NOT because 'you' are thick, from time to time, but because I am Truly unable to communicate properly.
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Age

Post by henry quirk »

"So I would suggest that 'you' NOT understanding me is NOT because 'you' are thick, from time to time, but because I am Truly unable to communicate properly."

Might be a little bit of both... :thumbsup:
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

BardoXV wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:11 am was Jesus born with all the knowledge, or did he need to learn it.
question asked and answered:

per Gospel of John - yes Jesus not only had all the answers from the beginning, he had no beginning, never having been born!

per Luke, yes and no, Jesus was born, so disagrees with John"s "from the beginning was the word" mantra/theology, and did not actually exist before his daddy YHWH impregnated Mary. (Matthew affirms this too BTW - though Mark does not, mark assumes via no mention of immaculate conception that Joe as Jesus' dad (not YHWH)).

Luke affirms that Jesus at age 12 knew things the wisest High Priests did not (refer to Gosp of Luke).

Matt is silent on the young christ's knowledge of the "kingdom of god".

Per Mark, we can assume Jesus had no/little knowledege, but as a good guy, and so God adopted him on the river Jordan via John the Baptist, and gained wisdom via his adopted father ("God").

BardoXV wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:11 am
If he was born with it did he also know that one day some people would speak English?
ask the Gospels.

Mark - Jesus born as a mortal via mortal parents (Mary and Joe)

Matt/Luke - Jesus born as the Son of God via mortal Mary and father YHWH

John - Jesus never born. always was and is - same as YHWH.

-----------------

pick your poison.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:31 pm per Luke, yes and no, Jesus was born, so disagrees with John"s "from the beginning was the word" mantra/theology, and did not actually exist before
Theologians and Biblical scholars generally do not agree with this claim, and do not see the conflict you suggest. They do not share your conclusion that incarnation conflicts with pre-existence, as if "existence" had to begin with incarnation and terminate with death. Rather, they point to the various references to Christ's pre-existence, and make distinction between the two.
Matt is silent on the young christ's knowledge of the "kingdom of god".
Well, that's to be expected: Matthew is completely silent on the early years of Christ on all counts. He tells us only of the incidents of Herod and the trip to Egypt, but otherwise picks up the narrative at John the Baptist. So the silence on that score is totally unremarkable.
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:45 pm
gaffo wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:31 pm
Matt is silent on the young christ's knowledge of the "kingdom of god".

Well, that's to be expected: Matthew is completely silent on the early years of Christ on all counts.
as is Mark and John.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:45 pm He tells us only of the incidents of Herod and the trip to Egypt, but otherwise picks up the narrative at John the Baptist. So the silence on that score is totally unremarkable.
and why i like you (you seem a nice guy (I assume you are a guy - if not a guy correct me please) I know you are nice........lol. you know your "Stuff" "bible stuff" - and why i like "talking to you (and you are not a dick) - I have no time for dicks or non-dicks per "religion" (not saying religous ignoramos' are dicks, just not worth my time talking about religion - same for well educated "believers" - who are also dicks.

you are not dick, but well educated. so welcome disscussion (though "I'm born to Burn - forever" per your Religion).

I have a problem with that (I noted i asked this many time to your in many threads - so your silence on the matter of souls in Hell/Heaven are just robots with no freewill to repent/sin (per their plight in the afterlife-place)?

what does your silence say?

to me it mean much (ALL) in fact, since this life is short per timeline - literally 0.00000000000000000000001 of.

and noting this FACT. i think a sin in this life would mean nothing per the rest of "life"...............the other 99.99999999999999 of souls in Hell/Heaven.

but whatever, you were silent in my inquiry on the matter of "your God making the dead into robots - so no freewill/no repentance - Hell/Heaven forever - per the actions of said souls in this 0.0000000000000001 "life" on earth.

so thanks for the nothin Sir.
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Emanual, you a good guy, and a Christian.

me a good guy and not a Christian.

so AGAIN- 3rd time? (have been noting your silence in the matter the last 2 months (and "The bible" does not offer an answer" - so its left to your conscience).

does a just God send persons that do did not believe your God had a son named Jesus to Hell forever (FOREVER) - for this non belief.

in spite of goodworks...............stepping on sidewalk's crack, break mothers back (though monster like Stalin/Hilter - in the last 0.0000001 sec before death may affirm your Christ as God/son of and so saved.

your God too small (in character) to allow folks in Hell - like where i will go being an Athiest, and better men than me Ghandi/etc............to allow freewill from Hell?

and so be affirm your God from Hell and be saved?

if so, i welcome your defense of such a "just God".


lol
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Immanuel Can
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:14 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:45 pm
gaffo wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:31 pm
Matt is silent on the young christ's knowledge of the "kingdom of god".

Well, that's to be expected: Matthew is completely silent on the early years of Christ on all counts.
as is Mark and John.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:45 pm He tells us only of the incidents of Herod and the trip to Egypt, but otherwise picks up the narrative at John the Baptist. So the silence on that score is totally unremarkable.
and why i like you (you seem a nice guy (I assume you are a guy - if not a guy correct me please) I know you are nice........lol. you know your "Stuff" "bible stuff" - and why i like "talking to you (and you are not a dick) - I have no time for dicks or non-dicks per "religion" (not saying religous ignoramos' are dicks, just not worth my time talking about religion - same for well educated "believers" - who are also dicks.

you are not dick, but well educated. so welcome disscussion (though "I'm born to Burn - forever" per your Religion).
Well, thanks for the vote of confidence. Likewise, I'm still enjoying talking to you.

There are no such people in what you call my "religion." I believe that one's eternal destiny is a matter of choice, not fate. One chooses where one wants to be, and God honours what you choose.
I have a problem with that (I noted i asked this many time to your in many threads - so your silence on the matter of souls in Hell/Heaven are just robots with no freewill to repent/sin (per their plight in the afterlife-place)?
I wasn't silent on that, actually. I told you what I think. I think there's a time for choice, and I time to live with the choices one has made.

It's funny...it seems you have an idea that if God accepted our choices and let us have the destiny we asked for, He'd be being horribly unfair. But what kind of a "choice" is it, if God can simply countermand your choice of where you go, and force you into some place you already rejected of your own free will?

Which course would be taken by a God who respected and affirmed the value of human choice?

I think the answer is obvious: a God who says you can choose Him or reject Him, but then forces you to only to choose Him, is uninterested in choice, freedom or human individuality. And as I say, I believe that's not true of God.

So let me ask you this: do you want God to take your choice seriously, or not? Or do you want Him to break your will, and to take you prisoner, even though you're kicking and screaming against it? If you declare you want nothing to do with Him, what do you expect a fair, honest and freedom-affirming God to do in response to your choice?
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:28 pm Emanual, you a good guy, and a Christian.

me a good guy and not a Christian.
I don't know what a "good guy" is, if there is no standard of objective "goodness." We would then be whatever we are...good, bad, or indifferent. None of those words would have any meaning, because absent objective morality, everything is simply a thing that is. No moral judgments are relevant anymore, then.
does a just God send persons that do did not believe your God had a son named Jesus to Hell forever (FOREVER) - for this non belief.
No: they send themselves.
in spite of goodworks...............stepping on sidewalk's crack, break mothers back (though monster like Stalin/Hilter - in the last 0.0000001 sec before death may affirm your Christ as God/son of and so saved.
Well, I can tell you that good works, one way or the other, aren't the basis of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes that perfectly clear, as does Titus 3:5.

And that makes sense: after all, do we imagine that when we do "good works" we are doing God favours? :shock: I'm not saying He approves of bad ones, but really, what is our goodness to Him? We're pathetic, little contingent creatures, whose "good deeds" are almost always sullied with mixed motives, personal failures, mistakes, and other shortcomings. How do we suppose, then, that what we assess as "good works" ought to come up to His standard?

They don't. As the Bible says, "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." That catches those who think, or make others think that they are "good," and those we know to be very "bad." The whole bunch of us come short. And that's why the Bible emphasizes forgiveness. We all need it.

What's ultimately important, then, is this question: what is our relationship to Him. Who we are to Him depends on who we have decided to be: either we can choose to be forgiven, or can loudly proclaim that we are among those who need no forgiveness.

And we shall have what we choose.
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm
Well, thanks for the vote of confidence. Likewise, I'm still enjoying talking to you.
indeed, i think we are both good judges of character (I'd welcome you starting a post in the "Religion" thread - i do like discussing Religous theology. so i may contribute.

Amos. Job. Mark. Jonah are my favs - as said many time before, for different reasons.

welcome if you start a thread "over there" so we can "talk".


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm There are no such people in what you call my "religion." I believe that one's eternal destiny is a matter of choice, not fate. One chooses where one wants to be, and God honours what you choose.
but only in this life,

so knowing you God exists - dying an athiest and finding myself in Hell...........the first thing i will do is repent of my folly and except your Christ is God.

he will ignore me?

let be stew in Hell FOREVER - i'm ok for a "Time served for sins in former life as mortal"................but FOREVER burn? not ok with that - speaking a as an atheist sinner still alive in this realm.

(not into the blaime game - not a "God hater" just stating logic, and what is posted in the Bible. maybe your god is evil and ok with daming to hell forever to finite sins in this life..............

I make no claims on your God's morality nor can change Him if i view him as evil.

all i can do is live my life as an athiest (maybe i'll be saved before i die - who knows, i do not know my one future (but will not convert out of fear of eternal damnation) - if your god thinks my eternal damnation is a higher morality than what i have, then i accept my burning forever (though unjust in my mind).

it that is the way of things, so be it.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm
I have a problem with that (I noted i asked this many time to your in many threads - so your silence on the matter of souls in Hell/Heaven are just robots with no freewill to repent/sin (per their plight in the afterlife-place)?
I wasn't silent on that, actually. I told you what I think.
If you posted it i did not see those posts.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm I think there's a time for choice, and I time to live with the choices one has made.
in this life, though it is what..........0.00000000000001 of all the soul's living and dead.

so ok, so you are saying that in this life - 1-100 yrs depending, all actions, beleifs in your God's Son as key to Salvation is all that matters.

negating the other 99.9999999 of "life" of souls after "death".

so they? cannont sin nor repent? from heavon/hell?

does your God remove a part of thier Soul after their death, so they cannot sin or repent?

asking you Sir.

if so why?

if souls are immortal i think the short timeline on this earth each of us have is immaterial to the overall picture, and if your God value Freewill, i'd think you would value the freewill of souls outside of this live on earth as more important!



Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm It's funny...it seems you have an idea that if God accepted our choices and let us have the destiny we asked for, He'd be being horribly unfair.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you do not see my problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i welcome your God accepting my choices - after i find myself in Hell as an Athiest, then seeing you were right!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm still "alive" and in Hell, and then i will turn to your God and Repent of my pride in denying him!

and does he Save me ? or let me burn in hell forever (I'm ok for finate sins in a finite life upon earth).

or does your god remove my ability to repent from Hell (turn me into a robot upon death).

if the latter i'm fucked and will burn in hell forever.

if the former, i leave it up to the justice of your God. - not like i can make you god bend to my will - force him to save me from the belly of Hell. either he will hear my cries and know they are sincere and allow me Salvation from Hell or He will ignore me and let me stew in Hell forever even after repenting of my ways.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm But what kind of a "choice" is it, if God can simply countermand your choice of where you go, and force you into some place you already rejected of your own free will?
If souls are immortal (to be in bliss forever in Heaven or Burn forever in Hell). it is you who is refusing Freewill of the dead (for of all the folks that life today - 100 times more are now dead - so your God only allow 1 percent of the living to have Freewill, and not the majority 99-percent?)

if so why so?

I value choice/freewill, including here on Earth, in Hell and in Heaven (agian less than 1-percent of folks are currently alive on Earth - the rest are dead).

do you affirm freewill for the 99 percent of the dead?

or not?

why so either way?

- i know you do not speak for your God, even if you may think you do.................or not.

welcome your views.

too many think of the living, and ignore the majority - the 99, all dead in your Heaven/Hell.

what of them?

robots, or souls with equal freewill as us the living?

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm
Which course would be taken by a God who respected and affirmed the value of human choice?
ya, sure, in this life i was a fool and rejected your god, then died.

i was petty (so?)

you saying your God returns the mindset?

upon finding "I'm still alive" in Hell................he - konwing more them me --will still be petty and let me burn forever for my folly as a man on earth as mortal?

ok, if that is your God and that God IS - then i'm fucked.

i just hope you and i am wrong, i'm wrong in my disbelief in YHWH, and you are wrong in His nature.

and being a God of Love will allow me Salvation from the Belly of Hell upon my repentance from that place.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm I think the answer is obvious: a God who says you can choose Him or reject Him,

I will choose Him upon finding myself "still alive" in Hell and wrong about my Athiesm in this life.

will he hear or care about me choosing him from Hell?

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm but then forces you to only to choose Him, is uninterested in choice, freedom or human individuality. And as I say, I believe that's not true of God.
then you affirm Freewill of souls post this life (99.9 percent of humans)

and so i can be saved from Hell - seeing i was wrong about my athiesm in this life - and accept your God from the Belly of Hell and be saved by Him?

if so, great!

we are in agreement, i have no troubles!

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm So let me ask you this: do you want God to take your choice seriously, or not?

I would like your God to take my choice/s seriously as a mortal on earth, and as a dead man in Heaven or Hell.

no prejudice per the living on earth, i think the dead deserve no less freewill than the living.

IMO as an objective atheist.
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:55 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm
Well, thanks for the vote of confidence. Likewise, I'm still enjoying talking to you.
indeed, i think we are both good judges of character (I'd welcome you starting a post in the "Religion" thread - i do like discussing Religous theology. so i may contribute.

Amos. Job. Mark. Jonah are my favs - as said many time before, for different reasons.

welcome if you start a thread "over there" so we can "talk".


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm There are no such people in what you call my "religion." I believe that one's eternal destiny is a matter of choice, not fate. One chooses where one wants to be, and God honours what you choose.
but only in this life,
Well, that's a matter of question, isn't it? We don't know that people who make a bad choice ever want to make a different one. However, all that's necessary for free choice to be genuine is for us to have it, for some period of time, in this life, in regard to the crucial issue. So that's not a problem one way or the other.
(not into the blaime game - not a "God hater" just stating logic, and what is posted in the Bible. maybe your god is evil and ok with daming to hell forever to finite sins in this life..............
I'll say again..."damning" is not something God has to do to people. People do it to themselves.
I make no claims on your God's morality nor can change Him if i view him as evil.
That's true. And your disapproval will also not make a good God bad. Our personal view of Him does not change His nature.
...but will not convert out of fear of eternal damnation...
That would be a motive, but not the best one, for sure. One could convert out of fear, but it would be better if one converted because it was the right thing to do, and reflected the truth of how things are, both morally and realistically.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm
I have a problem with that (I noted i asked this many time to your in many threads - so your silence on the matter of souls in Hell/Heaven are just robots with no freewill to repent/sin (per their plight in the afterlife-place)?
I wasn't silent on that, actually. I told you what I think.
If you posted it i did not see those posts.
I just said it again, in my last message.
so ok, so you are saying that in this life - 1-100 yrs depending, all actions, beleifs in your God's Son as key to Salvation is all that matters.
I'm saying that in this life, we choose where and how we will spend eternity. Our choice is free; but it is not forever. As the Bible says, "Now is the acceptable time; now is the day of salvation." (2 Cor. 6:2).
so they? cannont sin nor repent? from heavon/hell?
Who says they would if they could?
does your God remove a part of thier Soul after their death, so they cannot sin or repent?
Not that I know of. All I know is that they don't repent.

It may well be they remove the part of their soul that can repent themselves. That's sometimes what it means to make your final choice. I've met plenty of people who, once started on a very bad course, will not give it up, out of sheer pride, even if it kills them.
if souls are immortal i think the short timeline on this earth each of us have is immaterial to the overall picture, and if your God value Freewill, i'd think you would value the freewill of souls outside of this live on earth as more important!
If God values free will (and I think He does), then He values the choices we make. And we live with the choices we make. That's what it means for us to be allowed to make a genuine choice.

Did you want to make choices, and then have God overrule them for you and tell you you didn't have a right to choose in the first place? :shock:
i welcome your God accepting my choices - after i find myself in Hell as an Athiest, then seeing you were right!!!!!!!!!!! I'm still "alive" and in Hell, and then i will turn to your God and Repent of my pride in denying him!
Oh, I see.

The problem then, of course, would be that your choice would not longer be a free decision. You could hardly rationalize being without relationship to God if you knew what relationship to God was really like. So then, you would HAVE to choose to believe the right thing -- you'd have no option. So you'd no longer be free to choose.

And that's the great thing about Earth right now: there is enough evidence of the existence of God for a rational person to believe in Him -- but not so much evidence that people have no choice about whether they do or not. So we can be genuinely free in our choice, and own what we decide. That chance will not be around forever, though.
or does your god remove my ability to repent from Hell (turn me into a robot upon death).
If any such thing were to happen, it would be as a result of your free choice.
it is you who is refusing Freewill of the dead

I'm not doing anything of the kind, actually. I'm just telling you what the Word of God says will be the case. We don't know what the reason for the obduracy of the lost is, or what their state of mind is. We're not really told; and I don't suppose it matters much anymore.

What does matter is our free choice right now. So why waste it?
- i know you do not speak for your God, even if you may think you do.................or not.
I'm just saying what the Bible says. But it tells us very little about the lost dead, because quite frankly, they will no longer be of any consequence, even to themselves. However, they have made their choice and had it honoured. They have no more to ask.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm
Which course would be taken by a God who respected and affirmed the value of human choice?
ya, sure, in this life i was a fool and rejected your god, then died.
Then choose better. That's simple.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm I think the answer is obvious: a God who says you can choose Him or reject Him,
I will choose Him upon finding myself "still alive" in Hell and wrong about my Athiesm in this life.[/quote]
I think you will not. But I hope you never try to find out by that route. I wish better for you.
I would like your God to take my choice/s seriously as a mortal on earth, and as a dead man in Heaven or Hell.
That, I'm afraid, you cannot have. I do not know what your choice in Hell will be. Neither do you. So speculation will not help us here. What is very clear is that we have an opportunity NOW to decide what happens. My advice is to make a good choice.

Now, when you've really made your choice, you can't blame Him for confirming it for you. It was your choice in the first place. He doesn't owe you to reverse a bad choice. What we all owe, when we make a choice, is to live with its natural consequences. If we tell God, "I want nothing to do with You," then we can't complain when we get that...no matter how long it lasts. It was our choice.
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:00 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:28 pm Emanual, you a good guy, and a Christian.

me a good guy and not a Christian.
I don't know what a "good guy" is, if there is no standard of objective "goodness."
don't be silly, good is objective, and we are both good fellows.

you know this!

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:00 am
in spite of goodworks...............stepping on sidewalk's crack, break mothers back (though monster like Stalin/Hilter - in the last 0.0000001 sec before death may affirm your Christ as God/son of and so saved.
Well, I can tell you that good works, one way or the other, aren't the basis of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes that perfectly clear, as does Titus 3:5.

And that makes sense: after all, do we imagine that when we do "good works" we are doing God favours? :shock: I'm not saying He approves of bad ones, but really, what is our goodness to Him? We're pathetic, little contingent creatures, whose "good deeds" are almost always sullied with mixed motives, personal failures, mistakes, and other shortcomings.

you sold out to Saul's views (Pauline Christianity took over from the earlier form of your Faith sadly).

James (who you Christian ignore, stated pozers (saul - and all other assholes that proclaim Faith in your God's son - but do not do good works in His name) are saved.

James, Your God's Son's brother stated rightly that "Faith without works is dead".

but you guys ignore jesus' brother's book, choosing Saul's letters and related.

so do as you will.

I value works and so what James said over anything Saul wrote.

but i'm an athiest born to burn forever and so not worthy to learn from..............





Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:00 am How do we suppose, then, that what we assess as "good works" ought to come up to His standard?
that is the Beam-speck standard of perfection and silly and not obtainable.

Jame's Christianity, Judiasm and Islam are ok with striving to be "Good enough" as good enough for salvation.

if that is not good enough for your God, or Saul's God, so be it.

that standard was/is good enough for Jesus Brother James, the authors of the Old Testement, and the authors of the Koran.

who is right? you/saul or me/james

i leave it up to God.

I just hope if He exists He is one conceived of by James verse the one Saul (opportunist) thought of.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:00 am They don't. As the Bible says, "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." That catches those who think, or make others think that they are "good," and those we know to be very "bad." The whole bunch of us come short. And that's why the Bible emphasizes forgiveness. We all need it.

What's ultimately important, then, is this question: what is our relationship to Him. Who we are to Him depends on who we have decided to be: either we can choose to be forgiven, or can loudly proclaim that we are among those who need no forgiveness.

And we shall have what we choose.
we all fall short of the ideal, but your mentality of "we are all worms and all doing good works do so for self advantage in the sight of God" is Saulist mentality (garbage). His view of man was classic tranfurance (Saul was a worm, but also coward WRT to self reflection - so tranfered his view of himself onto others as also worms).

Fuck Saul - who persecuted Christian until he decided it was not to his advantages then "converted".

James was the better man (and he brother Jude) - both works i value infinately more than the 7 or so letter from Saul.

thanks for reply BTW
gaffo
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am
Oh, I see.
Do you? i think not. but welcome discussion.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am The problem then, of course, would be that your choice would not longer be a free decision.
why not? what is in the nature of my damned soul after death as an immortal but damned soul (after my death my soul is partially removed of freewill to repent and turn to your god?)

if so how and why?

per Hell - the place - if my soul is not lobotomized by your God, and i still have freewill to repent as an immortal spirit, is there something "special" about Hell - which is not so here on Earth - to prevent me from repenting, and accepting and being saved by your God?

clarify the nature of my post death soul, nature of the place of Hell for me to understand.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am You could hardly rationalize being without relationship to God if you knew what relationship to God was really like.
???????????

don't follow - other than you assume i do so in this life.

after finding myself still "alive" in Hell, i'll know you were right and i was wrong and repent!

will your God save me from Hell or let me burn forever in Hell as a Christian (formerly Athiest as a mortal).

asking you Sir.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am So then, you would HAVE to choose to believe the right thing -- you'd have no option. So you'd no longer be free to choose.
ok, so you are saying that in this life as mortal i never "saw god in my path" (if you see the bubba in front of you strike him down (same mentality but off topic, just thought came up - we can talk about this too if you like).

but in the next "life" (in Hell in my case/Heaven in yours) - upon seeing god then, "it don't count" for your God?

what does it say about your God if that is so? ;-(.

I personally hope when i find myself wrong about my atheism and in hell - I will repent (not out of self advantage - but out of humble self evidence - I was wrong and your God of Love exists)

and with a humble heart from the belly of Hell itself as a lost soul for the first time knowing your God and asking for his love and repreive, will give it to me?

- will your god refuse me his love, just because i saw and knew Him from Hell rather than in my former live while on Earth?

if yes - He will refuse my salvation from Hell.

why so?

how is this Just or the actions of the Loving God?


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am And that's the great thing about Earth right now:
"now" is an infinately small irrelvancy to the overal timeline of immoral souls.............so why "wall off" repentance of immortal souls when said souls live such a small time here on earth compared to Hell/Heaven?


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am there is enough evidence of the existence of God for a rational person to believe in Him

sadly, apearently not, i am quite rational BTW.

If your assurtion were true we would all be Christians, rather than 1/2 of, and the rest Athiests (1/5-percent globally), 1/4 Muslim, 1/5 Hindu/etc....


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am -- but not so much evidence that people have no choice about whether they do or not. So we can be genuinely free in our choice,

So you God only show "just enough" for the "elect" to see him, and the rest be damned.


i.e so since i do not see him in from of me, i'm fucked. and your God have me Freewill in his life to see him it i had "faith" but not enough freewill to see him in front of me in the street.

so not one of the elect, and when i'm dead and in Hell and then see him in front of me, he will ignore my repentance (and to you somehow my repentance from Hell upon seeing your God is no longer Freewill).

ok whatever.

I'm fucked then (on Earth and in Hell).

so be it.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am and own what we decide.



you sound like a Gnostic, the elect, some born for salvation others like me born to burn.

i never think of decisions as fixated forever without changing of mind.

i guess you do.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am That chance will not be around forever, though.


why not?

if man has an immortal soul, what is the purpose of having his action while on earth set in concrete - fixed upon his death.

of what good is an immortal soul if one has a god remove his freewill to thinks and decide from Hell/Heaven for the eons after?



Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am
or does your god remove my ability to repent from Hell (turn me into a robot upon death).
If any such thing were to happen, it would be as a result of your free choice.
non-sequitor.

as said before, assuming man has a soul and it is immortal, then its life while on Earth is irrelivent per the timeline of immortality, so why the fuck would any actions of said immortal soul on the earth have any relivence per its overall "live" as a spirit with freewill?

it would not.

it would have as much relivance as your actions as a three yrs old (assuming you are much older) - and noting infinity ---------my allusion is infinity lacking even moreso!

more like what you did as a 3 week old embrio.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am
it is you who is refusing Freewill of the dead

I'm not doing anything of the kind, actually.
with respect i think you are.

or more aptly not thought about it, and when replying to me fall about on old chestnuts.

lol.

think about the issue (it is a moral one).

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am
I'm just telling you what the Word of God says will be the case. .

it says too little sadly, and sadly Apocalypse of Peter was not placed in the canon, which had offered a little more upon the matter.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am We don't know what the reason for the obduracy of the lost is, or what their state of mind is.

See above about the 1/2, 1/5, etc religions................yet we are all human beings

think about that with a clear mind - as humble servant of your God - think of me (and the other 1/2 of earth damned to Hell for not seeing/knowing your God in this life on Earth) as you.

if you can see me as you, and not "the other" then maybe you can see the folly of assuming we can see your self evident God (or vise versa if you do not see us as you do can see how we cannot see your self evident God).
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am We're not really told; and I don't suppose it matters much anymore..
It matters more than anything else!!!!!!

man has/is an immortal soul!!!!!!!!!!!!! to have a soul tortured forever for finite sins commited in a short timespan and to ingore the rest of the timeline of that soul 99.99999999999999!!!!!!!! and to refuse nor ponder the ability of said lost immortal soul to find salvation and to know your God/vs buring in Hell FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!

IS a CORE MORAL quandry - your faith literally ignores! as do you!

you are a moral man! so why have you not given this thought!?!?!?!?!???!?!?!??!!?!?!


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am
What does matter is our free choice right now.

Why "right now" so important if man has an immortal soul?

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am So why waste it?
let me ask you this,

why does your God waste an immortal soul if all He cares about are the actions of said souls while on Earth a few short years?

if all He cares about are our actions here on Earth why the fuck does he give us etenity in Heaven and Hell afterward with noting our actions (repentance/sins) from that place?

whats the point in giving us immortal souls?

no point.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am Then choose better. That's simple.
I'll choose from Hell.

will your God hear me?


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm
I think you will not.

if my Atheism is right i will not, but if you are right, then i will "find God" upon "Waking up in Hell"

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm But I hope you never try to find out by that route.
why not so?

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm I wish better for you.
i wish better of your God - that his mercy is higher than your conception of.
and that he will save me upon my repentence from Hell.


I would like your God to take my choice/s seriously as a mortal on earth, and as a dead man in Heaven or Hell.
That, I'm afraid, you cannot have.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm I do not know what your choice in Hell will be. Neither do you.
I know you assume i have a soul and freewill.

i know you believe in a just god.

so why would your god castrate my soul upon death to deny me knowing him from Hell?

your Jesus preached to those in hell for the 3 days he was dead (peter 2).

so why would he not go down to hell later to preach to the rest of us that died after 0.00000001 AD?



Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm So speculation will not help us here.

my concern is justice.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm What is very clear is that we have an opportunity NOW to decide what happens. My advice is to make a good choice.
agian your view is narrow - man had an imortal soul (per your religion) - so this life is like a dead leaf (Ecceziacies(sp) has this viewpoint.

big picture is - souls are immortal, souls that happen to be here now on Earth and thier actions are a very immertial picture of the bigger picture/time line.

assuming i have a soul and it is immortal.

of course i'm an athiest and think when i die my "soul" will too.

but you as a Christian should have my view of eternity and immortal souls.

you really should.

it is a moral question as well as transendental


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm
Now, when you've really made your choice, you can't blame Him for confirming it for you. It was your choice in the first place. He doesn't owe you to reverse a bad choice. What we all owe, when we make a choice, is to live with its natural consequences. If we tell God, "I want nothing to do with You," then we can't complain when we get that...no matter how long it lasts. It was our choice.
as stated many times. i'm not into the blaime game, and strive to be Humble, which is a virtue BTW.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:32 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:00 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:28 pm Emanual, you a good guy, and a Christian.

me a good guy and not a Christian.
I don't know what a "good guy" is, if there is no standard of objective "goodness."
don't be silly, good is objective, and we are both good fellows.

you know this!
I'm just pointing out that you're implying we both have an objective standard of what makes somebody "good." But in a purely accidentally-created universe, there would be no such standard. Whatever exists would be neither "good" nor "bad." Those terms would not merely be subjective -- they would have no real meaning at all.
you sold out to Saul's views
There's no "selling out." There are only those who listen and those who don't.
James, Your God's Son's brother stated rightly that "Faith without works is dead".
He did. And he's right. But you need to notice what he says: what is dead without works? Faith. Why is faith important? Because only faith saves. Works are good, but are only the evidence of the faith that a person already has...you can see this when James writes, "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” (James 2:18)
but you guys ignore jesus' brother's book, choosing Saul's letters and related.
Not at all. As you can see, they actually agree.
but i'm an athiest born to burn forever and so not worthy to learn from..............
This is not something I said. I try to learn from everybody. I read the great Atheists far more often than I read theologians, actually; but somewhat less than I read the Bible itself, of course.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:00 am How do we suppose, then, that what we assess as "good works" ought to come up to His standard?
that is the Beam-speck standard of perfection and silly and not obtainable.
You're right: it's not humanly obtainable. But that's because we're all sinners, not because the standard's wrong.
Jame's Christianity, Judiasm and Islam are ok with striving to be "Good enough" as good enough for salvation.
James wouldn't agree. But you're right about (at least modern) Judaism and Islam. Humanist religion also says that. Mankind has a desire to bring the standard of "good enough" within their reach. The question is not whether or not they want it: it's whether they can have what they want.

Jesus Himself said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man comes to the Father (God) but by me." So all the works aren't going to amount to salvation for anyone.
if that is not good enough for your God, or Saul's God, so be it.
I suppose that sort of fatalistic response would be necessary -- if God had not created a better way. But He has.
thanks for reply BTW
You're most welcome. And thank you for your thoughts too.
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