The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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roydop
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by roydop » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:07 pm

Age wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:00 am
roydop wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:50 am
No need to carry on this conversation. You clarified nicely.
Thank you for the feedback. But I am still curious as to who and/or what you consider/found/realized is thee Self.
You're asking what I consider Self to be? A definition?

Source. Stillness. Timeless. Undefinable. Potential. Peace. Perfect contentment. Unchanging.

That which is looking through the eyes.

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Arising_uk
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:36 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:48 am
Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:46 am
Dontaskme[/quote wrote: The sun that supports life on this planet will eventually expand into a red giant during the throes of it's ultimate death, vaporizing the earth and all life and knowledge learnt will be gone.....
Isn't this just a creation of your mind?
Yes, it's a mental creation, a dream. It's a story arising here now. That which in an instant appears, and is gone as it appears, is but the appearance of the mind. ...
So it's not true that "The Sun that..." it's just a problem of your mind and as such it's not true that "all life and knowledge learnt will be gone"?
If humans do spread to other solar systems successfully, which is a far out stretch to say the least, then obviously they will take their lives and knowledge with them. But it's going to take some unimaginable superior knowledge to pull off such a feat, but that's just another story that has not been written yet. This story is pending within the human mind, but I guess anything can be possible where there is a will and a way and a mind to make a potential possibilty an actuality. It's just that right now, we are not aware of such a reality not until we are actually experiencing and being it in realtime. We cannot experience anything beyond what we are doing NOW. Beyond NOW is unknowable.
And yet you still insist on posting things like, "The sun that supports life on this planet will eventually expand into a red giant during the throes of it's ultimate death, vaporizing the earth and all life and knowledge learnt will be gone"? This is what I mean by the contradictions in your words, thoughts and your metaphysic.

Age
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Age » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:36 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:11 pm
Age wrote:
I have been for the last few years practising to not have or avoid thoughts . I have progressed this to about three to four seconds
Once I learned to recognize and notice the thoughts which arise within this body to then stop thinking altogether I also think is near impossible
It would appear to be easier to just let thoughts come and down go of their own free will rather than suppress them completely
Because I have done the actual experimentation, now I have the actual evidence and proof that it IS far easier to just let thoughts come and go. So it is not some thing just appears to be the case to me, but is the actual case to me.

But the issue that arises now is because thoughts control the behavior of 'you', human beings, if you were to just let any and all thoughts come and go, completely free willingly, then there is nothing controlling the right and the wrong that all 'you' adult human beings do now, when this written.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:11 pm
I have no real control over what comes into my mind but as I have said many times before I try not to hold onto them too much
And as I have asked for clarity many times before alsom Why hold onto, or even have, any thought, which could be wrong anyway? And as I also ask; Why not just remain always OPEN in order to be able to LOOK AT and SEE what the Truth of things actual IS?

Beliefs and assumptions, which are after all just more 'thoughts', are the main preventers and stoppers of being able to SEE the actual Truth of things.

When you learn and/or discover what thee 'Mind' actually IS, then with this Knowledge also comes the Knowledge of how to control the thoughts that naturally will just come and go, and when they are being controlled by thee Real and True Self, then living in peace and harmony with ALL "others" becomes not just now possible, but also very easy indeed, and very natural as well.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:11 pm
I actually want thoughts in my mind in order to keep it active but at the same time I do not want them to control me
Whilst you keep using the word 'mind' the way you are, you are being controlled significantly. To prove this to be the case show evidence of what this 'mind' thing actual IS, which you say you want thoughts in. You say you want this 'mind' thing to be active, which you say you want thoughts within, but, if 'you' can not fully explain this, then that infers 'you're do not FULLY understand ALL of this. If 'you' do not FULLY understand what you say is 'you' WANT, then could it be the case that actually 'you' are being controlled, and thus NOT actually in control of things your own 'self'? Remembering do 'you' even yet Know what thee Answer IS to that common question; 'Who am 'I', actually?'
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:11 pm
Most of the time I have no trouble in just letting them pass but some times there is blockage but it goes quite quickly
I think you will find in every waking moment there is no period of actual non-thinking. Even if there was a period of seemingly non-thinking there are thoughts for example like; "There are blockages," coming and going. The only real time there are periods of no thinking is when there is Knowing. The rest of the time are just periods of NOT recognizing the thoughts that come and go, or non-awareness.

Recognizing the thoughts coming and going is just being aware of them. This is where Awareness, in relation to Consciousness, comes into play. When one is Aware of the thoughts, which arise within that body, and can and does change those thoughts from what IS wrong in Life to what IS right in Life, then this is when the Conscious Being, or thee Consciousness One, is in control of things. When Thy Real Self is in FULL control, then it's when what is Truly sought and wanted by EVERY One is being Created.

But there is far more that needs to be learned and understood before what is being said here now, in this day and age of when this is written, is FULLY understood, and realized.

Age
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Age » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:10 am

roydop wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:07 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:00 am
roydop wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:50 am
No need to carry on this conversation. You clarified nicely.
Thank you for the feedback. But I am still curious as to who and/or what you consider/found/realized is thee Self.
You're asking what I consider Self to be? A definition?

Source. Stillness. Timeless. Undefinable. Potential. Peace. Perfect contentment. Unchanging.
Besides being 'undefinable' I agree with your considered/found/realization of Thy Real and True 'Self'.

To me Thy Real and True Self can be defined very easily and very simply indeed.
roydop wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:07 pm
That which is looking through the eyes.
To me, 'that' which looks through the human eyes only, and sees, is just the 'you', or more commonly known as just 'the human being'. These beings 'think' they are a real self, and in a sense, each individual one is a 'self', in and of its self. But, these ones are NOT the Real and True Self.

Thee Real and True Self LOOKS from, and through, a Truly OPEN Mind, of which there is only One, which is also able to SEE ANY and ALL things, including what 'you', human beings, see through the human bodies eyes. This Truly OPEN Mind is where the ALL-Seeing and ALL- Knowing Being exists.

The individual and separate 'thinking' human being self exists within an individual, separate human body.

Whereas, thee One and only 'Knowing' Being Real and True (God) Self exists within EVERY thing. This Self is able to SEE-ALL, and thus also KNOW-ALL things as well.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:41 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:36 pm
And yet you still insist on posting things like, "The sun that supports life on this planet will eventually expand into a red giant during the throes of it's ultimate death, vaporizing the earth and all life and knowledge learnt will be gone"? This is what I mean by the contradictions in your words, thoughts and your metaphysic.


There is no 'I' to think 'I am me'.

The 'me-ing' appears out of nothing and apparently falls back into nothing.

All conceptual knowns (aka stories) arise and fall in nothingness. Here today gone tomorrow, (known) - Here Now (Unknown) in other words this Unknown Known.

Of course an unknown known is a contradiction, how else would knowing be known.

A concept is known. The word Ocean is known by nothing. The word Ocean itself does not know it is an Ocean, the concept Ocean is known by nothing.

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:57 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:36 pm
So it's not true that "The Sun that..." it's just a problem of your mind and as such it's not true that "all life and knowledge learnt will be gone"?
The mind knows itself as a conceptual thing. The mind comes and goes in no thing / nothingness.

The eye cannot see itself, the tooth cannot bite itself, the finger cannot feel itself and the knower cannot know her/himself.

Truth is there isn't any. The mind is a manifestation of the 'origin' or the 'source', just as everything else is.

What is the 'origin' / 'source' of every thing true/false? ... All true and false things/knowns ..originate from the same place which is out of nothing, apparently falling back into nothing Here Now.

.

gaffo
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by gaffo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:06 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:46 am

Also it is not necessarily the case that all life and knowledge learnt will be gone as by that stage we could have spread to other solar systems.
space is empty - the nearest stars are too far to get too.


no technology will make a spaceship mulitgenerational for a 60,000 yrs to get to the nearest star -which may or may not have another earth around it.

we are stuck on Earth forever.

thems the facts.

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Arising_uk
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:54 am

gaffo wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:06 am
Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:46 am

Also it is not necessarily the case that all life and knowledge learnt will be gone as by that stage we could have spread to other solar systems.
space is empty - the nearest stars are too far to get too.


no technology will make a spaceship mulitgenerational for a 60,000 yrs to get to the nearest star -which may or may not have another earth around it.

we are stuck on Earth forever.

thems the facts.
Nope. Read up on Dyson and the Orion pusher-plate ships in the 50's.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:52 am

If GOD is anything at all God is emptiness.

"In recognising presence awareness, there is no 'thing' to see, just natural non-conceptual seeing, actually as it is without subject or object.

See this and the realisation is immediate that what is labled as awareness or consciousness or mind can never be formulated as either a subject or an object.

Being empty of a subject or object, it is emptiness seeing (cognising emptiness). Emptiness can never be emptied of emptiness, nor can it be filled by emptiness. With that concept cancelled out, only the wordless thoughtless indescribable emptiness remains. Not a vacuum or a void, but a vivid self-shining, self-knowing, self-aware emptiness, like a clear sky full of light.
See for yourself.
No one or other can do it for you.
Immediate simplicity.
Continue to see that the seeing is continuous.
Any doubt, question, or argument, and the conceptual seeker has appeared again.
See that and non-conceptual emptiness remains undisturbed".


Your arguing for the imagined existence of a fictional character's story. It's so see through a blind man can see it.

.

Age
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Age » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:30 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:41 am
Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:36 pm
And yet you still insist on posting things like, "The sun that supports life on this planet will eventually expand into a red giant during the throes of it's ultimate death, vaporizing the earth and all life and knowledge learnt will be gone"? This is what I mean by the contradictions in your words, thoughts and your metaphysic.


There is no 'I' to think 'I am me'.
Yes there IS.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:41 am
The 'me-ing' appears out of nothing and apparently falls back into nothing.
No it does NOT.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:41 am
All conceptual knowns (aka stories) arise and fall in nothingness.
Can you provide any evidence for this claim?
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:41 am
Here today gone tomorrow, (known) - Here Now (Unknown) in other words this Unknown Known.
But can stories remain, in print and/or thought, tomorrow?

Of course an unknown known is a contradiction, how else would knowing be known.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:41 am
Are you saying that an 'unknown known' is a contradiction because there is nothing knowing?
If yes, then what is an 'unknown known'?

If no, then what are you saying?
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:41 am
A concept is known. The word Ocean is known by nothing. The word Ocean itself does not know it is an Ocean, the concept Ocean is known by nothing.

.
Just because the word 'ocean' does not know it is an ocean, or even the case that the ocean, itself, does not know it is an ocean, then that, in no way, infers that I do not know who, and what, 'I' am.

Thee 'I' that KNOWS is NOT nothing, for the very fact that 'I' KNOW who and what 'I' am.

'I' also KNOW how concepts are known. This is because of where they lay.

The ridiculousness and stupidity of the concept 'you' to imagine that it KNOWS any thing and that one of those things is that EVERY thing is known by nothing, speaks for itself.

There is NO real 'I' that thinks ANY thing. But there is an 'I' that KNOWS EVERY thing, and that 'I' is EVERYWHERE right NOW.

HERE 'I' am. I KNOW what 'I' am, and 'I' am some thing.

Proposing that concepts are known by nothing, and not something, is like some thing proposing that there is not any thing.

To propose, "there is no 'I' to think 'I am me'", is to not yet be aware/know of who or what 'I' am, nor of who or what it is that thinks.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:59 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:41 am
There is no 'I' to think 'I am me'.
Age wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:30 am
Yes there IS.
There IS and IS not I

The I that thinks 'I am me' is a 'known thought' in thoughtless I

'I am me' is a thought arising in thoughtless I

I is ONE aka no one...identification with thought is duality, an illusory arising within nothingness appearing as something.

Age
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Age » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:51 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:57 am
Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:36 pm
So it's not true that "The Sun that..." it's just a problem of your mind and as such it's not true that "all life and knowledge learnt will be gone"?
The mind knows itself as a conceptual thing. The mind comes and goes in no thing / nothingness.
How certain are you of this?
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:57 am
The eye cannot see itself, the tooth cannot bite itself, the finger cannot feel itself and the knower cannot know her/himself.
Yes I CAN Know and I DO Know Thy Self.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:57 am
Truth is there isn't any. The mind is a manifestation of the 'origin' or the 'source', just as everything else is.

What is the 'origin' / 'source' of every thing true/false? ... All true and false things/knowns ..originate from the same place which is out of nothing, apparently falling back into nothing Here Now.

.

Saying that "EVERY thing came from NO thing" is just as stupid and as ridiculous as saying, "EVERY thing came from God". How could you possibly substantiate and/or validate what you are saying and proposing?

The problem with your [religious] critique, your logic, your reasons, your truth-seeking, your argumentation, and your debate is what are you literally basing, what you are saying here, from exactly?

(Your Honest answer would be much appreciated here now).

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Dontaskme
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:18 am

Age wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:51 am


Saying that "EVERY thing came from NO thing" is just as stupid and as ridiculous as saying, "EVERY thing came from God". How could you possibly substantiate and/or validate what you are saying and proposing?
Because I AM the unknown known. NOWHERE.

Everything and Nothing doesn't come from any other place than always this here now. NOWHERE. THIS IS IT.
You,me, and everything are THIS
Age wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:51 am
The problem with your [religious] critique, your logic, your reasons, your truth-seeking, your argumentation, and your debate is what are you literally basing, what you are saying here, from exactly?

(Your Honest answer would be much appreciated here now).
From KNOWLEDGE that no one knows.

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:20 am

Age wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:51 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:57 am
Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:36 pm
So it's not true that "The Sun that..." it's just a problem of your mind and as such it's not true that "all life and knowledge learnt will be gone"?
The mind knows itself as a conceptual thing. The mind comes and goes in no thing / nothingness.
How certain are you of this?
As certain as I am uncertain.

.

Age
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Age » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:43 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am
There is nothing to know, nothing to learn.
Is this some thing which you are 'trying to' teach?

Do you believe there is nothing more for 'you' to learn?
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am
There is only the here and now.
Is this another one of those 'nothing to learn' lessons?
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am
There are no answers to life.
Is "There is only the here and now" one of those no answer to life non-lesson?

If yes, then WHY are you providing this NON-answer?

If, however, no, then what is "There is only the here and now" actually?
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am
All that you know is what you've read or heard.
But how do the ones who can not read and can not hear, know things?
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am
This is the peace that passes all understanding, everything is resolved without saying a word.
But there was NOTHING at all to be solved, nor resolved, anyway.

SEE, I already KNOW all the answers.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am
This is the truth that the world doesn't want you to know.
How does a 'you' know what the truth IS?

And, how could a 'world' want any thing?
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am
Life is a catch 22 ..
No It is NOT.

'Life' IS HERE-NOW.

There is NOTHING new needing to be solved, nor resolved. This has already been done.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am
an unknown life evolves into an unknown death just as death evolves into a life unknown.
But I KNOW 'Life'. There is NO 'unknown life'. Life does NOT evolve into an 'unknown death', nor even into a 'death'. This would just be impossible, unless of course, shown otherwise.

What do you think or believe actually dies and evolves into life again?

And how do you propose this could even happen?
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am
The known knows nothing and nothing knows, is known.

.
This sounds like you will 'try' just about any thing to 'try' to back up and support your already existing BELIEFS.

What exactly is this 'known', which knows nothing?

And who or what KNOWS that 'nothing knows'?

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