The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dontaskme
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The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:40 am

This is a zen story.

The student is told that there is a goose egg stuck in a bottle and he has to figure out how to remove it before the egg hatches.

He offers.....over an extended period of time ....many possible solutions to the dilemma.

All of which are rejected by the master.

The student collapses in complete frustration and mental exhaustion..... the teacher takes pity on him and says:

"Ok..you bring the goose egg and bottle to me....and I will show you what has to be done."




In a flash of insight the student realises that there never was a goose egg stuck in a bottle.

The 'problem' only existed in his mind.

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This Zen story expresses that all possibilities are available to be experienced this instant. A reminder that all possibilities are after all 'creations' of Consciousness (even the 'individual mind')... they have no fundamental reality in themselves.

The sun that supports life on this planet will eventually expand into a red giant during the throes of it's ultimate death, vaporizing the earth and all life and knowledge learnt will be gone. Life is a dream dreamt by no one. This life is given to you only once. There is nowhere to stake your flag.

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Age
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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Age » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:00 am

A 'problem' is just a question posed for a solution.

There are no actual problems in Life other than those made up by human beings.

For EVERY problem there is also an answer/solution.

Also, if the sun eventually expands into a red giant, then that does not mean that all life will be gone and it does not necessarily mean that knowledge learned will be gone as well.

To me, this Life is not a dream. Life fe is not given to you. 'you' are a result of Life, Itself.

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am

Age wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:00 am
Also, if the sun eventually expands into a red giant, then that does not mean that all life will be gone.
I'm not sure about you but I personally would not expect to find any living life forms on a vaporized earth. I have no knowledge of planets supporting life forms other than this earthly dream world. Also, the duration of the earths birth and death is a mere blink of an eye in the grand scheme of eternity. Life is nothing going nowhere for no reason or purpose.
Age wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:00 am
To me, this Life is not a dream.
It can be likened to dream.Where is yesterday? where were you before you were you? where do you go when you are not you anymore? Nothing is known.

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:46 am

Dontaskme[/quote wrote: The sun that supports life on this planet will eventually expand into a red giant during the throes of it's ultimate death, vaporizing the earth and all life and knowledge learnt will be gone.....
Isn't this just a creation of your mind?

Also it is not necessarily the case that all life and knowledge learnt will be gone as by that stage we could have spread to other solar systems.

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:48 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:46 am
Dontaskme[/quote wrote: The sun that supports life on this planet will eventually expand into a red giant during the throes of it's ultimate death, vaporizing the earth and all life and knowledge learnt will be gone.....
Isn't this just a creation of your mind?
Yes, it's a mental creation, a dream. It's a story arising here now. That which in an instant appears, and is gone as it appears, is but the appearance of the mind.
Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:46 am
Also it is not necessarily the case that all life and knowledge learnt will be gone as by that stage we could have spread to other solar systems.
If humans do spread to other solar systems successfully, which is a far out stretch to say the least, then obviously they will take their lives and knowledge with them. But it's going to take some unimaginable superior knowledge to pull off such a feat, but that's just another story that has not been written yet. This story is pending within the human mind, but I guess anything can be possible where there is a will and a way and a mind to make a potential possibilty an actuality. It's just that right now, we are not aware of such a reality not until we are actually experiencing and being it in realtime. We cannot experience anything beyond what we are doing NOW. Beyond NOW is unknowable.



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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Age » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:12 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:00 am
Also, if the sun eventually expands into a red giant, then that does not mean that all life will be gone.
I'm not sure about you but I personally would not expect to find any living life forms on a vaporized earth.
So you are sure now, I would not expect to find any living life form on a vaporized, or non existent, earth either.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am
I have no knowledge of planets supporting life forms other than this earthly dream world.
But just because you have no knowledge of some thing, then that in no way infers that thing does not exist.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am
Also, the duration of the earths birth and death is a mere blink of an eye in the grand scheme of eternity. Life is nothing going nowhere for no reason or purpose.
And that was my point. Earth's and the sun's period of existence is relatively nothing in the scheme of things. So, to assume that ALL life will be gone from the Universe just because the sun, which is just one star out of literally countless stars, has expanded into a red giant seems to be a bit of a narrow perspective of things to me.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:00 am
To me, this Life is not a dream.
It can be likened to dream.
Now this is very true.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am
Where is yesterday?
EVERY thing is relative to the observer. To me, yesterday has just transformed into today. The One thing is continually transforming Itself, into what is perceived to be, by human beings, as many different and separate things. There is only One [day] continually changing.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am
where were you before you were you?
Obviously a 'you' can not be any where before it comes to exist.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am
where do you go when you are not you anymore?
This is fully understood once who and what the 'you' is, and who and what the 'I' is, is actually KNOWN.

KNOW Thy Self, then the Answers to your questions here will also be KNOWN, and UNDERSTOOD fully.

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am
Nothing is known.

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If you believe so, then it must be true, correct?

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Age » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:19 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:48 am
Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:46 am
Dontaskme[/quote wrote: The sun that supports life on this planet will eventually expand into a red giant during the throes of it's ultimate death, vaporizing the earth and all life and knowledge learnt will be gone.....
Isn't this just a creation of your mind?
Yes, it's a mental creation, a dream. It's a story arising here now. That which in an instant appears, and is gone as it appears, is but the appearance of the mind.
Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:46 am
Also it is not necessarily the case that all life and knowledge learnt will be gone as by that stage we could have spread to other solar systems.
If humans do spread to other solar systems successfully, which is a far out stretch to say the least, then obviously they will take their lives and knowledge with them.
How many more years would you say the sun has got left before it expands into a red giant?

And, how much have human beings advanced in their ability to travel, in say just 50 to 100 or so years?

Comparing the two and the time period left spreading to other solar systems successfully, to me, does not seem a "far out stretch", literally, at all.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:48 am
But it's going to take some unimaginable superior knowledge to pull off such a feat, but that's just another story that has not been written yet. This story is pending within the human mind, but I guess anything can be possible where there is a will and a way and a mind to make a potential possibilty an actuality. It's just that right now, we are not aware of such a reality not until we are actually experiencing and being it in realtime. We cannot experience anything beyond what we are doing NOW. Beyond NOW is unknowable.



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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:54 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:12 pm

And that was my point. Earth's and the sun's period of existence is relatively nothing in the scheme of things. So, to assume that ALL life will be gone from the Universe just because the sun, which is just one star out of literally countless stars, has expanded into a red giant seems to be a bit of a narrow perspective of things to me.
Huh!

I never mentioned the ''Universe'' did I ? ...so I'm not assuming ALL life am I ? ...
Why do you think I would assume what I cannot possibly know?
Why did you assume I was talking about the universe when I never even mentioned the universe?

I was talking about all the species colonising the earth will evaporate along with the planet itself. I have not got a clue what is living beyond the biosphere of this earth planet.

While it is possible that other life forms may exist elsewhere in the universe, we so far to date, in our present evolution of human knowledge have no accessible means of observing those life forms to know them intimately in so far as being able to experiencially know what they would look like, except as imagined. So yeah, sorry to say this but human beings currently have only a very narrow observation window as to what they can see and know to currently exist in realtime.

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:15 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
where were you before you were you?
Age wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:12 pm
Obviously a 'you' can not be any where before it comes to exist.
So a 'you' that can not be any where ...can then just come to exist from this no where ?

Wow, that makes perfect absurd sense, thanks for that knowledge, it explains everything now. I always wondered how a 'you' can not be any where and yet a 'you' can come to exist, even though this 'you' that has come to exist now, was not any where existing before now...wow, the wonders of wonders...is there a non-existing 'you' that suddenly transforms into an existing 'you' ....is that what you are saying? and how does that happen?

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:45 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:12 pm

KNOW Thy Self, then the Answers to your questions here will also be KNOWN, and UNDERSTOOD fully.
To know thyself can only mean to know you don't know self.

If you do know thy self then you must have created that self you know...is that right, did you create yourself?

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:00 pm

Dontaskme wrote:...
Yes, it's a mental creation, a dream. It's a story arising here now. That which in an instant appears, and is gone as it appears, is but the appearance of the mind. ...
Do you truly not see the contradictions in your thoughts and words?
If humans do spread to other solar systems successfully, which is a far out stretch to say the least, then obviously they will take their lives and knowledge with them. But it's going to take some unimaginable superior knowledge to pull off such a feat, ...
Not really, Taylor, Dyson, et al, worked-out the theory for the Orion pusher-plate ships in the 50's which could feasibly get to Alpha Centauri in anything from 133 to around 44 years depending on the design used and around the Solar System in months and weeks to the planets and they had plans for massive 'interstellar arks'. What put the boot to them was the Partial Test Ban Treaty in '63.

Interestingly their work has been recently been reclassified so watch this space...

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:23 pm

Age wrote:
How many more years would you say the sun has got left before it expands into a red giant ?

And how much have human beings advanced in their ability to travel in say just 50 to 100 or so years ?

Comparing the two and the time period left spreading to other solar systems successfully to me does not seem a far out stretch literally at all
Humans will eventually become extinct as a species even if they do manage to colonise another planet so it is only delaying the inevitable
But we have only been here I00 000 years and have a maximum of a billion more before ocean temperatures will kill all life on Earth
So it is not altogether impossible to think that we could colonise a suitable world in the future for they most certainly are out there
Our ancestors of I00 000 years ago could only imagine all that we have already achieved in the incredibly short time span since then

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:48 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
So a you that can not be any where ... can then just come to exist from this no where
You were simply existing in a different form before you then became what you are now or rather were at the point of conception
Everything is in a permanent state of transformation so nothing is ever the same forever because that state is simply not possible

The potential you always existed before you were conceived and the actual you will carry on existing till you die and then that you will then be
transformed into something else and so on and so on ad infinitum - for in a very real sense you never truly die but merely exist in another state
Existence has but two fundamental attributes - eternity and change - and you are merely an infinitesimal part of that just like everything else is

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:39 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:00 pm
Do you truly not see the contradictions in your thoughts and words?
You obviously do not understand there is no such thing as ''our words'', and that that's the only contradiction being seen here, because in truth nothing belongs to us, not even words or thoughts. If they are your thoughts, then see if you can choose your next thought before one comes. And then see if you can choose the next word before that comes.. you'll soon find out that you do not choose words or thoughts because they are spontaneously self arising here in no thing. Even the word 'you' is a self arising word or thought appearing here, in no one. But you don't like that idea do you, ok fine, not many people do.
Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:00 pm
Not really, Taylor, Dyson, et al, worked-out the theory for the Orion pusher-plate ships in the 50's which could feasibly get to Alpha Centauri in anything from 133 to around 44 years depending on the design used and around the Solar System in months and weeks to the planets and they had plans for massive 'interstellar arks'. What put the boot to them was the Partial Test Ban Treaty in '63.

Interestingly their work has been recently been reclassified so watch this space...
Wow, big wishful thinking dreams, so maybe one day we might just be able to reach Alpha Centauri..but then, what if when we get there we discover the planets are already fully occupied with life forms of their own? Also wouldn't it be arrogant of us thinking that we could just take over another solar system as if we had the authority to do that? are we really that special. Will the ''interstella arks'' be capable of supporting the earths animals as well? what about all the other species on the earth, are we going to take them along with us as well, or are we just going to be more concerned with saving only our own skin.
Also, supposing we do colonise another planet just for ourselves, one that just happens to be convieniently out-there already vacant, then wouldn't that be a strange reality, a world where there are just humans. How would that work ? I thought every creature had it's own purpose in what we know to be the whole interconnectedness that is the web of life, surely if one strand of that web is missing, how would life even function efficiently? I think we would be trying to play God here ..maybe it's not our place to do so, maybe God has other plans for us. I'm using the conceptual word ''God'' in the same context as I'm using the concept ''human being'' who believes it can keep itself immortal, is that fair to say?

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Re: The problem with religious critique, logic, reasons, truth-seeking, argumentation, and debate.

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:23 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:23 pm
Age wrote:
How many more years would you say the sun has got left before it expands into a red giant ?

And how much have human beings advanced in their ability to travel in say just 50 to 100 or so years ?

Comparing the two and the time period left spreading to other solar systems successfully to me does not seem a far out stretch literally at all
Humans will eventually become extinct as a species even if they do manage to colonise another planet so it is only delaying the inevitable.
Thank you, I agree. Human in it's unique capacity to believe it exists as a separate special species will continue to deny it's inevitable demise in extinction. Even in it's futile attempt to play God - it will create even more suffering than it is already dealing with. Man will become a frankenstein like monster if it ever gets it's way. Not a good idea to allow the rise of the manmade AI machines to rule the universe.

The only use humans have right now is their knowledge of being self aware, they know they are going to die, so they can use their intelligence by opting for voluntary extinction and stop breeding. They can go out quietly and gracefully, or they can go out making very loud screeching and grinding noises until their very last breath. .if they choose wisely, they might even have a better chance of extending their residence on their own planet and live more efficiently.

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:23 pm
But we have only been here I00 000 years and have a maximum of a billion more before ocean temperatures will kill all life on Earth
So it is not altogether impossible to think that we could colonise a suitable world in the future for they most certainly are out there
Our ancestors of I00 000 years ago could only imagine all that we have already achieved in the incredibly short time span since then
Although, the only rapid evolutionary growth has been technology, not human sentient sensibilty, that part of us is still in it's infancy.
Adapting to life on our own planet has seen rapid changes in the way we move around and communicate, but it's a completely different ball game adapting to other planets. What about the goldilocks theory of the planet just having the exact right conditions for human existence...we just can't keep hopping from planet to planet like shopping for a suitable dress to wear in the hope that one day we'll eventually find one that fits perfectly and suits all our of requirements to survive and procreate. As if life on this earth planet was not bad enough, we want to do it all over again, it just doesn't make any sense. What on earth do we ever think we are going to gain by planet hopping?

Then what about when our milky way galaxy collides with andromeda.. what kind of reality will that create if by then we have already moved into and become part of that future scenario, the mind boggles at this point.





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