The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

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Veritas Aequitas
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The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:57 am

When I proposed the following;
Fundamentally, all religions including Buddhism are triggered by the existential crisis arising from the subconscious* fear of death [an impulse that facilitates survival].
* not a conscious fear of death.

The typical reply by all are like the following;
I don't think that people are driven by fear as much as some posters on philosophy forums believe.
If you read biographies of religious people, fear is not a major motivator.
I have explained many times [in various posts above] there are two types of fear of death.
  • 1. The conscious fear of death
    2. The subconscious 'fear of death'
1. The conscious fear of death
Humans can have a conscious fear of death, especially when one observed actual dying of people, relatives, kins, friends & others and in various circumstances.
Normally this is momentary because all humans by default are naturally programmed to avoid conscious deliberation on the fear of death, otherwise the person would be paralyzed by such conscious fear of death that would hinder ordinary living.

However there are a rare number of people who are unfortunately pre-occupied with a conscious fear of death. Such unfortunate people are mentally ill due to a the defect that somehow effect the conscious mind to be bothered by the conscious fear of death.
The mental issue in having a persistent conscious fear of death is THANATOPHOBIA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anx ... sychology)
In this case, the person will have to consult a psychiatrist to cure his existential problem.

Thus ordinary people do not have a conscious fear of death.
This is why when "one read biographies of religious people, fear is not a major motivator." and all members who are religious and/or theistic will say the same.
But note,

2. The subconscious 'fear of death'
  • P1 To desire to live one has avoid death.
    P2 To avoid death, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
    C3 Therefore to desire to live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
  • Edited To Include;

    A. DNA wise all humans are programmed to strive to survive with a will-to-live at all costs.

    • P1 To ensure one survive with the will-to-live one has avoid death.
      P2 To avoid death, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
      C3 Therefore to survive with the will-to-live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].


    Note the emphasis is on the subliminal fear of death.

While the conscious mind [10% powerful] is normally inhibited to avoid the conscious fear of death, the subconscious [90% powerful] is programmed with the "fear of death" to ensure the person survive at least till the inevitable.

For example, the majority of people has a sense of terrible unease when they standing on the edge of a 1000 foot cliff, or the extreme Acrophobia - the fear of height. This instinctual program is adapted by the majority of our ancestors who had noted falling from tall cliffs and places means instant death most of the time.
Thus whenever the majority of people stand on the edge of tall places, they will CONSCIOUSLY feel very uneasy and thus driven to avoid such places but they would not rationalize what is going on inside their SUBCONSCIOUS mind.
What they are unaware as the real reason for the unease they feel, is the subliminal fear of death that ensure they live and survive - see the syllogism above.

As with the above examples, there are thousands of situations in life where a person feel unease, anxieties, worries, etc. which the person will attribute to what is observed consciously but failed to realize the ultimate root cause, i.e. the subliminal fear of death bubbling within the subconscious mind.

The above are the various fear factors attributed to the subliminal fears of potential death [e.g. height, poisonous animals, dark places, etc.] which can be avoided.

As demonstrated above, the subconscious mind triggers unease, anxieties, worries, etc. merely upon what is threat of potential death, thus the subliminal fear of death.

Note the above fear of death is triggered upon 'potential' death, which generate terrible unease and pains to drive one away from that danger.
Now what about when the subconscious mind is aware, not of potential death But of CERTAIN death, i.e. mortality.

In the case of the awareness of certain death in a matter of time, the subconscious mind will be triggered with the greater fears of death and the accompanying associated unease and the mental pains will be 1000x greater manifesting as existential anxieties, despairs, hopeless, Angst. At the same time the conscious mind is not aware of the real root cause, i.e. the subliminal fear of certain [mortality] death.
This is how the existential crisis emerged out of the above cognitive dissonances and drive the conscious mind to seek consonance to relieve the existential pains.

The solution to consonance of the majority is the quickie route via religion and theism, i.e. just believe and viola! the existential pains disappear. Fortunately this really works. I believe it is an adaptive feature of evolution.

The problem is while the majority of theists and religionists are relieved of their existential pains, they are not aware of the root cause in the subconscious mind, i.e. the subliminal fear of death.
When they are ignorant of the root cause, their quickie fire-fighting solutions of theism and religions came with their corresponding negative baggage that cause other sort of sufferings to non-believers and believers themselves. Example Islam [especially], Christianity, etc.

This is where Buddhism-proper comes in to dig into the ultimate root cause, i.e. identify the subliminal fear of death as reflected in the Buddha Story and introduce the effective solutions as propounded by the Buddha in the 4NT and 8FP with its core principles.
Note there are other spiritual paths that introduce similar solutions.

When the majority are not aware the ultimate root cause is the subliminal fear of death [as most (all?) have denied], then humanity will suffer as is evident in the past, at present and will be in the future.

My explanation above is very rational.
Agree? if disagree, why?
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Atla
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Atla » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:32 am

If your leg hurts, cut it off.
Shouldn't people come to terms with their mortality rather than dismantle their minds (themselves)? Is mere survival enough?
In other words, why do you think the West will accept Buddha's approach of dealing with the problem of suffering by running away from it, by dismantling the person who suffers, until the person is replaced by an artificial construct?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:02 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:57 am
My explanation above is very rational.
Nah, not so much. :wink:
Agree? if disagree, why?
Disagree. Because this argument is so very bad that it could be used to argue for absolutely anything.

Your supposition is that people fear death. But more than that, that it has to be their motivation for all the things they do. And then more than that, that if they think it isn't, then it still really is, because of the subconscious, which you know all about, but they don't.

So we can use exactly the same reasoning for anything.
"Why do people use household forks? Because of fear of death. I know they think it's to keep their hands clean, and to pick up food -- but they just don't know, because subconsciously, they want to have a weapon in their hands to fight off the Grim Reaper, in case he shows up.

My explanation above is very rational."
"Why are people Atheists? Because of fear of death. I know they think they have reasons, but really, they just don't know, because subconsciously, they don't want to face judgment in the afterlife.

My explanation above is very rational."
"Why do people post on philosophy boards? Because of fear of death. I know they think they have ideas, but really, they are subconsciously drawn to establishing their existence constantly, by posting compulsively, whether they have a point or not.

My explanation above is very rational."
Nope, not a bit of it. The whole lot is gratuitous.

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Age » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:36 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:57 am
When I proposed the following;
Fundamentally, all religions including Buddhism are triggered by the existential crisis arising from the subconscious* fear of death [an impulse that facilitates survival].
* not a conscious fear of death.

The typical reply by all are like the following;
I don't think that people are driven by fear as much as some posters on philosophy forums believe.
If you read biographies of religious people, fear is not a major motivator.
The alleged "typical" reply by "all" are like this because you are just plainly wrong.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:57 am
I have explained many times [in various posts above] there are two types of fear of death.
  • 1. The conscious fear of death
    2. The subconscious 'fear of death'
Will you provide links to where you have supposedly explained this previously (in various posts "above")?

By the way, human beings are born with a love of life, or a desire to live, and NOT with a fear of death at all.

Any fear of death, which you have "veritas", is just a consequence of the life you lived. You just learned to fear death, so you can just unlearn this as well.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:57 am
1. The conscious fear of death
Humans can have a conscious fear of death, especially when one observed actual dying of people, relatives, kins, friends & others and in various circumstances.
Normally this is momentary because all humans by default are naturally programmed to avoid conscious deliberation on the fear of death, otherwise the person would be paralyzed by such conscious fear of death that would hinder ordinary living.

However there are a rare number of people who are unfortunately pre-occupied with a conscious fear of death. Such unfortunate people are mentally ill due to a the defect that somehow effect the conscious mind to be bothered by the conscious fear of death.
The mental issue in having a persistent conscious fear of death is THANATOPHOBIA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anx ... sychology)
In this case, the person will have to consult a psychiatrist to cure his existential problem.

Thus ordinary people do not have a conscious fear of death.
This is why when "one read biographies of religious people, fear is not a major motivator." and all members who are religious and/or theistic will say the same.
But note,

2. The subconscious 'fear of death'
  • P1 To desire to live one has avoid death.
    P2 To avoid death, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
    C3 Therefore to desire to live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
While the conscious mind [10% powerful] is normally inhibited to avoid the conscious fear of death, the subconscious [90% powerful] is programmed with the "fear of death" to ensure the person survive at least till the inevitable.

For example, the majority of people has a sense of terrible unease when they standing on the edge of a 1000 foot cliff, or the extreme Acrophobia - the fear of height. This instinctual program is adapted by the majority of our ancestors who had noted falling from tall cliffs and places means instant death most of the time.
Thus whenever the majority of people stand on the edge of tall places, they will CONSCIOUSLY feel very uneasy and thus driven to avoid such places but they would not rationalize what is going on inside their SUBCONSCIOUS mind.
What they are unaware as the real reason for the unease they feel, is the subliminal fear of death that ensure they live and survive - see the syllogism above.

As with the above examples, there are thousands of situations in life where a person feel unease, anxieties, worries, etc. which the person will attribute to what is observed consciously but failed to realize the ultimate root cause, i.e. the subliminal fear of death bubbling within the subconscious mind.

The above are the various fear factors attributed to the subliminal fears of potential death [e.g. height, poisonous animals, dark places, etc.] which can be avoided.

As demonstrated above, the subconscious mind triggers unease, anxieties, worries, etc. merely upon what is threat of potential death, thus the subliminal fear of death.

Note the above fear of death is triggered upon 'potential' death, which generate terrible unease and pains to drive one away from that danger.
Now what about when the subconscious mind is aware, not of potential death But of CERTAIN death, i.e. mortality.

In the case of the awareness of certain death in a matter of time, the subconscious mind will be triggered with the greater fears of death and the accompanying associated unease and the mental pains will be 1000x greater manifesting as existential anxieties, despairs, hopeless, Angst. At the same time the conscious mind is not aware of the real root cause, i.e. the subliminal fear of certain [mortality] death.
This is how the existential crisis emerged out of the above cognitive dissonances and drive the conscious mind to seek consonance to relieve the existential pains.

The solution to consonance of the majority is the quickie route via religion and theism, i.e. just believe and viola! the existential pains disappear. Fortunately this really works. I believe it is an adaptive feature of evolution.

The problem is while the majority of theists and religionists are relieved of their existential pains, they are not aware of the root cause in the subconscious mind, i.e. the subliminal fear of death.
When they are ignorant of the root cause, their quickie fire-fighting solutions of theism and religions came with their corresponding negative baggage that cause other sort of sufferings to non-believers and believers themselves. Example Islam [especially], Christianity, etc.

This is where Buddhism-proper comes in to dig into the ultimate root cause, i.e. identify the subliminal fear of death as reflected in the Buddha Story and introduce the effective solutions as propounded by the Buddha in the 4NT and 8FP with its core principles.
Note there are other spiritual paths that introduce similar solutions.

When the majority are not aware the ultimate root cause is the subliminal fear of death [as most (all?) have denied], then humanity will suffer as is evident in the past, at present and will be in the future.

My explanation above is very rational.
Agree? if disagree, why?
As explained to you already, your words are far more irrational than rational.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2773
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:17 am

Atla wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:32 am
If your leg hurts, cut it off.
Shouldn't people come to terms with their mortality rather than dismantle their minds (themselves)? Is mere survival enough?
You may be able to do so consciously [facilitated] but not subconsciously.
In other words, why do you think the West will accept Buddha's approach of dealing with the problem of suffering by running away from it, by dismantling the person who suffers, until the person is replaced by an artificial construct?
You misunderstood Buddhism proper.
Gautama tried by running away and turned to many teachers of asceticism and other doctrines but he failed.

After he found 'enlightenment' he condemned and never promoted the methods of asceticism.
However there are still monks and lay-Buddhists who continued to practice asceticism in alignment with the strong natural tendency of escapism. Such acts has nothing to do with Buddhism proper because the Buddha never approved of it.

Nope, Buddhist philosophy do not promote the replacement with an artificial construct but rather teaches one how to interact with the empirically world optimally with equanimity.
Here is how this interaction with reality is depicted in the final image after enlightenment.

Image
10. In the World

Barefooted and naked of breast, I mingle with the people of the world.
My clothes are ragged and dust-laden, and I am ever blissful.
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead trees become alive.

Comment: Inside my gate, a thousand sages do not know me. The beauty of my garden is invisible. Why should one search for the footprints of the patriarchs? I go to the market place with my wine bottle and return home with my staff. I visit the wineshop and the market, and everyone I look upon becomes enlightened.
https://www.expressionsofspirit.com/10b ... nbulls.htm

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2773
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:15 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:02 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:57 am
My explanation above is very rational.
Nah, not so much. :wink:
Agree? if disagree, why?
Disagree. Because this argument is so very bad that it could be used to argue for absolutely anything.

Your supposition is that people fear death. But more than that, that it has to be their motivation for all the things they do. And then more than that, that if they think it isn't, then it still really is, because of the subconscious, which you know all about, but they don't.
Nope I did not state "for all the things they do."

The driving force of life is
A. - ensuring the continuation of the species, in this case human species.

This driving force is supported by two main driving forces, i.e.
  • 1. To avoid premature death to perform 2, thus the fear of death [more subliminal than conscious].

    2. To procreate and produce the next generations.

    3. To act rationally, morally and wisely
Thus all human activities are aligned to the above two main functions in the brain/mind.

In the case of humans, they are given self-consciousness and higher faculties of reasoning, philosophy, morality, and others to increase the greater potential of A against greater threats to the species.

So we can use exactly the same reasoning for anything.
Yes, reducible to the main purposes listed above.

"Why do people use household forks? Because of fear of death. I know they think it's to keep their hands clean, and to pick up food -- but they just don't know, because subconsciously, they want to have a weapon in their hands to fight off the Grim Reaper, in case he shows up.

My explanation above is very rational."
Why people use forks is reducible to taking in food and nutrients to support 1. above i.e.
-To avoid premature death to perform 2, thus the fear of death [more subliminal than conscious].
Humans do all sort of things in terms of getting food and nutrients into their body, but the ultimate reason is to avoid premature death and this is triggered by the subliminal fear of death.
"Why are people Atheists? Because of fear of death. I know they think they have reasons, but really, they just don't know, because subconsciously, they don't want to face judgment in the afterlife.

My explanation above is very rational."
Why people are [a]theists is due to their being indifferent to theism or they deliberately choose not to be theists.

Those who are indifferent to theism are not taking any action to be [a]theist, thus they are not driven by any action. Since no action is taken, there is no action to link it to the fear of death.

Those [a]theists who consciously choose to be [a]theist do it morally, rationally and wisely because theism is irrational and many theists are led to irrational acts that end up dying for irrational reasons, e.g. suicide bombers which would have triggered the subliminal fear of death in relation to theism.

"Why do people post on philosophy boards? Because of fear of death. I know they think they have ideas, but really, they are subconsciously drawn to establishing their existence constantly, by posting compulsively, whether they have a point or not.

My explanation above is very rational."
There are many reasons why people post on philosophy boards.
There are many who posts to find answers to the pains they are sufferings arising from the subliminal fears of death.
There are those who post just to keep themselves busy since being idle can be uncomfortable and uneasy for some. This unease are manifested indirectly from the subliminal fear of death.
Other than being forced to, however a person posts on philosophy or any other boards there is some degree of positive to the person and this to soothe unease arising from the subliminal fear of death.

Even if the person is addicted to post or to other activities, addiction arises from the subliminal fear of death.
The trait of addiction is to drive a person to repeat something that is favorable to avoid premature death, especially on acts that are favorable to survival.
For example, in an environment that is unpredictable, the person who is addicted to food would be have a greater chance of survival when there is a period drought thereafter.

Thus give me any human act and I can reduced them to 1, 2 or 3 above to facilitate the continuation of the human species.

Age
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Age » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:21 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:15 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:02 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:57 am
My explanation above is very rational.
Nah, not so much. :wink:
Agree? if disagree, why?
Disagree. Because this argument is so very bad that it could be used to argue for absolutely anything.

Your supposition is that people fear death. But more than that, that it has to be their motivation for all the things they do. And then more than that, that if they think it isn't, then it still really is, because of the subconscious, which you know all about, but they don't.
Nope I did not state "for all the things they do."

The driving force of life is
A. - ensuring the continuation of the species, in this case human species.

This driving force is supported by two main driving forces, i.e.
  • 1. To avoid premature death to perform 2, thus the fear of death [more subliminal than conscious].

    2. To procreate and produce the next generations.

    3. To act rationally, morally and wisely
Thus all human activities are aligned to the above two main functions in the brain/mind.

In the case of humans, they are given self-consciousness and higher faculties of reasoning, philosophy, morality, and others to increase the greater potential of A against greater threats to the species.

So we can use exactly the same reasoning for anything.
Yes, reducible to the main purposes listed above.

"Why do people use household forks? Because of fear of death. I know they think it's to keep their hands clean, and to pick up food -- but they just don't know, because subconsciously, they want to have a weapon in their hands to fight off the Grim Reaper, in case he shows up.

My explanation above is very rational."
Why people use forks is reducible to taking in food and nutrients to support 1. above i.e.
-To avoid premature death to perform 2, thus the fear of death [more subliminal than conscious].
Humans do all sort of things in terms of getting food and nutrients into their body, but the ultimate reason is to avoid premature death and this is triggered by the subliminal fear of death.
"Why are people Atheists? Because of fear of death. I know they think they have reasons, but really, they just don't know, because subconsciously, they don't want to face judgment in the afterlife.

My explanation above is very rational."
Why people are [a]theists is due to their being indifferent to theism or they deliberately choose not to be theists.

Those who are indifferent to theism are not taking any action to be [a]theist, thus they are not driven by any action. Since no action is taken, there is no action to link it to the fear of death.

Those [a]theists who consciously choose to be [a]theist do it morally, rationally and wisely because theism is irrational and many theists are led to irrational acts that end up dying for irrational reasons, e.g. suicide bombers which would have triggered the subliminal fear of death in relation to theism.

"Why do people post on philosophy boards? Because of fear of death. I know they think they have ideas, but really, they are subconsciously drawn to establishing their existence constantly, by posting compulsively, whether they have a point or not.

My explanation above is very rational."
There are many reasons why people post on philosophy boards.
There are many who posts to find answers to the pains they are sufferings arising from the subliminal fears of death.
There are those who post just to keep themselves busy since being idle can be uncomfortable and uneasy for some. This unease are manifested indirectly from the subliminal fear of death.
Other than being forced to, however a person posts on philosophy or any other boards there is some degree of positive to the person and this to soothe unease arising from the subliminal fear of death.

Even if the person is addicted to post or to other activities, addiction arises from the subliminal fear of death.
The trait of addiction is to drive a person to repeat something that is favorable to avoid premature death, especially on acts that are favorable to survival.
For example, in an environment that is unpredictable, the person who is addicted to food would be have a greater chance of survival when there is a period drought thereafter.

Thus give me any human act and I can reduced them to 1, 2 or 3 above to facilitate the continuation of the human species.
The act of suicide.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2773
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:44 am

Age wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:21 am
Thus give me any human act and I can reduced them to 1, 2 or 3 above to facilitate the continuation of the human species.
The act of suicide.
I had stated 'suicide' is the exception due to mental illness.

Age
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Age » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:44 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:44 am
Age wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:21 am
Thus give me any human act and I can reduced them to 1, 2 or 3 above to facilitate the continuation of the human species.
The act of suicide.
I had stated 'suicide' is the exception due to mental illness.
When and where?

Age
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Age » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:49 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:15 am

The driving force of life is
A. - ensuring the continuation of the species, in this case human species.

This driving force is supported by two main driving forces, i.e.
  • 1. To avoid premature death to perform 2, thus the fear of death [more subliminal than conscious].

    2. To procreate and produce the next generations.

    3. To act rationally, morally and wisely
Thus give me any human act and I can reduced them to 1, 2 or 3 above to facilitate the continuation of the human species.
Smoking tobacco.

Atla
Posts: 2491
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Atla » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:59 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:17 am
Atla wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:32 am
If your leg hurts, cut it off.
Shouldn't people come to terms with their mortality rather than dismantle their minds (themselves)? Is mere survival enough?
You may be able to do so consciously [facilitated] but not subconsciously.
In other words, why do you think the West will accept Buddha's approach of dealing with the problem of suffering by running away from it, by dismantling the person who suffers, until the person is replaced by an artificial construct?
You misunderstood Buddhism proper.
Gautama tried by running away and turned to many teachers of asceticism and other doctrines but he failed.

After he found 'enlightenment' he condemned and never promoted the methods of asceticism.
However there are still monks and lay-Buddhists who continued to practice asceticism in alignment with the strong natural tendency of escapism. Such acts has nothing to do with Buddhism proper because the Buddha never approved of it.

Nope, Buddhist philosophy do not promote the replacement with an artificial construct but rather teaches one how to interact with the empirically world optimally with equanimity.
Here is how this interaction with reality is depicted in the final image after enlightenment.

Image
10. In the World

Barefooted and naked of breast, I mingle with the people of the world.
My clothes are ragged and dust-laden, and I am ever blissful.
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead trees become alive.

Comment: Inside my gate, a thousand sages do not know me. The beauty of my garden is invisible. Why should one search for the footprints of the patriarchs? I go to the market place with my wine bottle and return home with my staff. I visit the wineshop and the market, and everyone I look upon becomes enlightened.
https://www.expressionsofspirit.com/10b ... nbulls.htm
You misunderstood Buddhism proper. After Buddha tried escaping "physically" and that failed, he tried escaping "mentally" which worked.
Achieving the blissful state by throwing out parts of himself and replacing them with an artificial construct, which can no longer hurt because it's no longer a genuine human self that even processes life. It just automatically interacts with life on a surface level.
Part of this mental escape is to adopt a pretentious denial about Buddhism being escapist.
If your leg hurts, cut it off. If human existence is painful, don't be human. You did this, but why do you think the West will do this too?

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Immanuel Can
Posts: 6428
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:31 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:15 am
My explanation above is very rational.
Nah, not so much. :wink:
Agree? if disagree, why?
Disagree. Because this argument is so very bad that it could be used to argue for absolutely anything....even arguments as silly as this one (which I can't believe you bothered to try to make rational, actually.)
"Why do people use household forks? Because of fear of death. I know they think it's to keep their hands clean, and to pick up food -- but they just don't know, because subconsciously, they want to have a weapon in their hands to fight off the Grim Reaper, in case he shows up.

My explanation above is very rational."
:D

There's nothing rational about this pattern of argument. When an argument works for every possible proposition equally, then it 'works' for nothing in particular. But anyone can see that.

You're only objecting because you fear death. And losing a logical argument would make you feel mortal. I know you think you have a point, but subconsciously, you just fear death. And I can prove it, because the subconscious exists, and because fear of death exists. So you're just afraid.

My explanation is very rational. :D

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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Scott Mayers » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:19 pm

The OP is partly correct. The 'fear' if anything, is about ANY suffering. We don't 'know' death from being within it except as second-hand experience of losing those we knew personally who have died. The 'fear' is not necessarily of death but of suffering. This is what the suicidal person is opting to rid themselves of ....their suffering.

In general, I think the cause of religious interpretation of reality is about wanting some universal explanation, most specifically of moral justication or VALUATION of things itself. Why do we have to have suffering rather than bliss? Nature itself is unfair. The religious thinking is just a devolution of the secular rationalization of why we have 'values' at all, whether they be good versus evil, love versus hate, affinity versus evasion, etc. Without a specific explanation, people may act with more direct self-interest. So you cannot find a 'common' ground of orienting a community anywhere without establishing a justification of nature's cause for our evaluative natures. Many Egyptians of the ancient times, the major root of modern religions, treated the source as without value and originated in chaos (where we get 'gas' from) but is literal in any fluids. The "waters" in Genesis as is translated by many today, was actually more properly interpreted as the "fluids". Thus the 'waters below" are liquids as water, AND the air itself (as a gas). They only thought that solids were certain but that everything else was equivalent to 'nothing' at all.

The Egyptian "Nile" is from a word that comes to us as "nil" or "null". The sky, and most representing the chaos (gas) from above, is "Nut" in Egyptian and where we get, "Not" --> "nothing". Thus in light of the above, many interpreted this as a form of "nihilism", a term also related to both of these. Thus the 'fear' by some was that if Nature was itself nothing, then morality or any evalutation is an illusion. This to many raises the fear of a return to chaos and why that word has its meaning of disorder or un-solidified meaning to values. Thus, the word, "God", is the evolution that assigns the source as "Good" and why Genesis specifies this with respect to our own comfort.

So the roots of theism is as much one of civilization because it requires ORDER. This is not easy to come by if people are just purely selfish prior to our modern ideals of capitalism. Thus, the roots are as much 'secular' and non-religious but because we need some foundation to justify being 'civil', we need some rationale to fix the concept of values as necessary to nature even where Nature doesn't actually care. The adaption to favor 'goodness' to be begged by nature is just our own rationalization of our own existence.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:24 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:59 am
You misunderstood Buddhism proper. After Buddha tried escaping "physically" and that failed, he tried escaping "mentally" which worked.
Achieving the blissful state by throwing out parts of himself and replacing them with an artificial construct, which can no longer hurt because it's no longer a genuine human self that even processes life. It just automatically interacts with life on a surface level.
Part of this mental escape is to adopt a pretentious denial about Buddhism being escapist.
If your leg hurts, cut it off. If human existence is painful, don't be human. You did this, but why do you think the West will do this too?
You are talking nonsense.
The above is not in align with the full context of Buddhism-proper.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2773
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:41 am

Age wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:49 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:15 am

The driving force of life is
A. - ensuring the continuation of the species, in this case human species.

This driving force is supported by two main driving forces, i.e.
  • 1. To avoid premature death to perform 2, thus the fear of death [more subliminal than conscious].

    2. To procreate and produce the next generations.

    3. To act rationally, morally and wisely
Thus give me any human act and I can reduced them to 1, 2 or 3 above to facilitate the continuation of the human species.
Smoking tobacco.
When a person first tried smoking tobacco, there is an element of curiosity or going with the crowd, etc.
These activities are reducible to the fear of death.
Curiosity is a trait that is positive in discovering greater knowledge to avoid death, which is trigger subliminally by the fear of death.
Going with a the crowd is also positive to survival to avoid death.

When the person is addicted to tobacco [nicotine] that has an immediate effect in soothing the unease and anxieties that emerged from the subliminal fear of death.

Suicide is due to damage in the normal neural wiring that drive a person to survive at all costs.

However theistic and ideological suicide bombers are different.
A theistic suicide bomber is first driven by an existential crisis [from subliminal fear of death] to cling to a theistic ideology that promise eternal life, thus soothe the existential crisis.
An ideological theist is one who has entered into a contract with God to comply with the contractual terms stipulated by God, in exchange for a promise of eternal life.
Thus where the contractual terms included the offer to be martyred, i.e. by suicide bomber and that earthly life is secondary, the theist is merely doing his divine duty in accordance to the terms of the contract.

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