Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:10 pm

1. Your neighbour announces that he has had a religious revival, and has committed himself to become as much like Jesus Christ as he possibly can.

2. Your neighbour announces to you that he has had a religious revival, and from now on is going to behave as much like Mohammed as he possibly can.

Which scenario gives you reason for concern?

In the first, I congratulate him; in the second, I buy more ammo.

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Sculptor
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Sculptor » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:41 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:21 pm
ROLF
Heh. :D Not much of an answer.

Well, put it this way. Here's two case scenarios:

1. Your neighbour announces that he has had a religious revival, and has committed himself to become as much like Jesus Christ as he possibly can.

2. Your neighbour announces to you that he has had a religious revival, and from now on is going to behave as much like Mohammed as he possibly can.

Which scenario gives you reason for concern?
Christopher Hitchens was asked much the same question. He listed several examples of both Christian and Muslim scenarios were he had found himself literally in fear of his life. The question being "upon seeing a group of men returning from a prayer meeting". His list mentioned Beirut, Belfast and several other Bs.

For both scenarios I would immediately consider moving house.

I know you are clearly a person of limited life experience, but just take the trouble to listen through to his offering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLtNvYibK2c

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:30 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:19 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:39 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:08 pm

Your brain is too dead to see the most simple but profound distinction. Therefore unworthy to engage in further discussions.
No, you said a book does not compel a person to act, when everything you argue against is grounded in people be compelled by a book or interpretation of a book.

Your strict movement to adhominums, like some retarded grade schooler, just shows how dead your brain is...classic narcissistic projection.
Keep your head in the sand, and your prejudice close.
I see you as no different from any other prospective terrorist
So what you are saying is you are paranoid?

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Sculptor
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Sculptor » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:31 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:30 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:19 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:39 pm


No, you said a book does not compel a person to act, when everything you argue against is grounded in people be compelled by a book or interpretation of a book.

Your strict movement to adhominums, like some retarded grade schooler, just shows how dead your brain is...classic narcissistic projection.
Keep your head in the sand, and your prejudice close.
I see you as no different from any other prospective terrorist
So what you are saying is you are paranoid?
Projection.
I'm not the one seeing a terrorist behind every mosque.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:45 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:31 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:30 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:19 pm

Keep your head in the sand, and your prejudice close.
I see you as no different from any other prospective terrorist
So what you are saying is you are paranoid?
Projection.
I'm not the one seeing a terrorist behind every mosque.
I am not either, but I dont go around seeing every as "no different from any other prospective terrorist."

gaffo
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by gaffo » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:58 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:43 am
gaffo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:22 am
PTH wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:00 pm
This is just whataboutery. By all means start a different thread on whether Amerophobia is justifiable.

The Irish National Liberation Army was a small gang of terrorist nutters. They killed about 120 people, not a lot in a global context.

Does the fact they didn't kill hundreds of thousands mean they aren't terrorists?
same with ETA? Basques.

PTH wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:00 pm
By all means, argue that the answer to the question posed in the thread title is "Yes". But do so with valid arguments, not whataboutery.
islamphobes are historical ignoramouses.

prior to 911, Hindus (Tamil Tigers) killed more folks and all the Islamist terrorists worldwide.

of course Bush Jr illegal invasion of Iraq changed this historical fact, and added and abetted islamic nutters, that what happens when you are a fool and instead of walking around a fireant hill, you step on it!!!!!!!
Nice one gaffo.
for once we are are in agreement, hope we shall continue in agreement in the future, but sadly doubt it.

thanks for your agreement in this particular nonetheless.

and to note, yes Fire-ants (close relation to army ants BTW) SUCK!!!!!!!!!! they are native to South America, but were imported here - alabama (mobile) - in the 30's, and since that time have invaded 1/2 of my nation.

full disclosure, i was a casualty of them in the early 70's as a kin in Houston. to this day i sadly hate all ants and have a phobia WRT to all ants (though i should only with fireants). the subconscience is strong and does have a bias.

For the love of god DO NOT ALLOW those bastards to take a foothold in New Zeland madam!!!!!!!!!!

i implore you!

gaffo
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by gaffo » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:20 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:36 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
A phobia is an irrational fear.

The fear of Islam's advocacy of evil and violent acts upon non-believers [as evident] is real fear, thus not a phobia.
Agreed.
Although they do have a penchant for self exploding around other Muslims - Sunni\Shia are really not best of friends.
exactly! like the Protestants vs Catholic in Christiandome.


Muslims are acting the same way today as Christians did 500 yrs ago.

and of course 500 prior - 1000 yrs ago, Christians were the ignorants in the dark age and the muslims were the light.

History! learn it, to be a wise person. what was come around.

Muslims are in the dark age now - not due to their religion, but due to politics of the region.

if you know history and remain unbiased you can be wise and understand our world.

IMO.


attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:36 am

Yes, I wonder whether those that have posted in this forum criticising 'Christianity' have actually found comparative scripture with regards to Christ's teachings with that of Mor.ham.mads?
I'm not a christian, but know much about it. yes there are a few reference/declairations attributed to Jesus as violent. I think Jesus was an Essene Jew that affirmed Judiasm (which is identical to Islam BTW), and affirmed violence in the aim of justice.

His aim was independence of Judea from roman rule, and the romans killed him for it.

I affirm his view and respect what is left of his teachings. violence is not good, but sometime it is the last resort left to secure justice.

Jesus' justice was independence from Roman rule.

I really like Jesus because he hated hypocrisy more than anything else (oh and BTW Islam hate hypocrisy more than anything else too)

-----oh and the Shia and Sunni killing each other - though both are Muslims -------are.........wait for it.......................Hypocrites!

gaffo
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by gaffo » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:27 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:30 pm

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
nice words, and I agree with them.

sadly written by Saul - a phony opportunist.

gaffo
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by gaffo » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:35 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:07 pm

Just so, you've got to look beyond the individuals trying to practice the ideology, and ask what the ideology itself rationalizes.
fair point. you affirm good individuals acting morally in spite of thier culture/religion.


good. so man is good by nature, no need to make man good by your religion Christianity (since is said last week percentages of assholes are the same 1/5th - with or with Christianity or Islam.

only thing is asshole Christians will use THE WORD to lead astray the weak of minded to their own agenda.

as with Muslims.

so doctrine/religion is irrelivant!

man is man - now, or million yrs ago.

1/5th asshole count is the universal constant - over time and space, from a million yrs ago to today.

gaffo
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by gaffo » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:03 am

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:07 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:06 am


Well, if that's your argument, then what is this "Islam" entity you blame for all the world's evils? It's not "Muslims"; it's a "Phantom" set up by the West, for their own reasons.
Not at all. One has to judge an ideology by what it actually says.
Nah.
Judge not by words but by deeds.
YES!!!!!!!! i thank you for your wisdom on this matter.

Oh God!!!!!!! how i grieve over how so few are wise in this world ;-/.

i thank you!



Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:35 pm
1.89999 billion Muslins are peaceful and just want to get, the f u c k on with their lives.
Exactly! we are all here living in 1st world thinking 1st troubles (the troubles of the privalaged) - while those in Raqqa are living "real world problems - since 2011 - life and death!)

before you judge others, walk in their shoes, so move to Raqqa and try to stay alive under ISIS rule, then you may able to judge folks living there for their personal actions (he is a colaborator! etc.............) until then - in you heated and air conditioned home in a 1st world nation, you have no validity!

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:35 pm
Examine the deeds of the West and its continued de-stabilisation of the ME, and SE Asia.
agreed, Western Imperialism is what we have historically. where i diverge from PC "leftists" (I'm a liberal but not a leftist), is the belief "I evil" for being white and born in privalege. I'm white and born in privalage, but not evil.

nor not more evil than others.

IMO - if given a retake in history, and the American Indians colonized europe (and there is no reason this might not have happened! man live agraian lives for 100.000 yrs both in the New World and the Old - only in the last 1% of that timeline did some folks in europe move outward).

so yes if the say the Aztecs "disscovered Europe" they would have oppressed the native europeans as much as we end up doing it to them.

I know its not PC but the Aztecs was actually worse then the Spanish (and this is a LOW BAR!) - so i do not cry over the destruction of the Aztec empire.

Inca? i might cry, their empire was not a brutal as the Aztec one.

---------

In conclusion, i do to champion the historal result of western imperialism, but view men as man regardless of thier national origin (we the same) - they would have do to "us" what we did to them given revised history).

I also not a lefist, because to do not think i am evil for being a white man (I think i am an good person - regardless of my race - and being white allows me privalege but does not make me evil).

I deny inherited guilt also. to the best of my knowledge my anscesters did not own slave (but some probably did - given the stats). I never owned a slave, and even if my dad did, that does not make me evil if i do not (only make my dad evil)).

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:13 am

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:25 pm
Christopher Hitchens...
I know you are clearly a person of limited life experience, but just take the trouble to listen through to his offering.
Oh, no. I know Hitchens. I've heard everything he's got to say.

He knows he was wrong now.

I wonder if you really know him, though. This will help you know how he ended things.

https://www.amazon.com/Faith-Christophe ... 0718091493

gaffo
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by gaffo » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:29 am

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm
Judge not by word but by deed.
yep - see above post.

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm
Most Muslims are simply born into "Islam". .
yep, like Chistians and Hindus. depends upon the land you are born in.

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm
Whilst I agree that Islam is violent, it is less so than Judaism,
agreed, both faiths are violent (and identical theologically).

I do not like the violence aspects of either, but like Islam as non racist (any one can convert - race not relevant) and like Judaism for its valuing of justice over all things (i,e even if it require me hating my enemy - reciprocity.............not "love my enemy so he can blub me while i love him christian mindset).

one thing i do not like about Judaism is its tribalism, "us jews" vs the "goyim". i understand that that is a product of the percecutions of the jews over history and the authors of some of those books took upon that mindset of tribal thugs (Ezra).

there are an equal number of authors that rejected Ezra's view - Author of Job, and championed the universality of all men regardless of their personal faith and the justice of the Jewish god for them and jews both in the overall picture.




Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm
and most Christians are perfectly happy to take their instructions from the Old Testament sadly.
From the Torah you mean.

they are ignorant. the Torah is not the OT.

the OT is the Torah and the minor prophets works.

Christians today affirm the torah, the lesser work in the OT, and are wholey ignorant of the other works in the OT - most of which are worthy, more so than the Torah (the latter is a political work written to justify the land grabe of Israel by the jews and God's will).

read:

job

amos

jonah

all excellent works affirm humility and justice over pride and privalege. affirming universal humanity.


but "christians" don't bother to read those works of the OT. sadly.


Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm
The Christian right in the US, in particular, seem very keen on vengeance and taking an eye for and eye (as well as a Ib of flesh for good measure).
yes, in truth they are not Christians, they are fascists.

I'm not a Christian (but find some good in their Faith as i do in Judaism and Islam - and reject the rest using my mind/conscience) BTW, I'm an Atheist, but no Fascist!
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm
People do what they want and use the Scripture to justify their needs.
yep!

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm
The Old Testament is so violent that it is easy enough to pick and choose something relevant.
In WWI, both sides were fighting for God.

It's Deeds not words.
you view of the OT is of the Torah only, read the rest of the OT.

Amos (my fav)
Jonah (tied as second with............Job).

you need to read more of the OT before you dissparage it, there is much good in that work - by the minor prophets,

so go read their works then come back so we can talk about the Old Testament.

thanks for reply - you do have wisdom, and for that i thank you!

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:01 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:29 am
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm
Whilst I agree that Islam is violent, it is less so than Judaism,
agreed, both faiths are violent (and identical theologically).
Wow. Couldn't be more wrong, and evidently, verifiably so. Amazing.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:08 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:07 pm

Just so, you've got to look beyond the individuals trying to practice the ideology, and ask what the ideology itself rationalizes.
fair point. you affirm good individuals acting morally in spite of thier culture/religion.
That's not quite my point. It's a possible point, but not the right one here.

The point is this: ideologies incline people to move toward certain kinds of actions, and away from others. Some people do not take their ideology very seriously, and so may do something that is not consonant with their professed ideology. But anybody who takes the particularly ideology seriously, and tries to act consistently with what it teaches, will be inclined to do certain things.

That's what makes "what the ideology rationalizes" very important. It tells you what sort of "certain things" the ideology itself will incline people toward.
so doctrine/religion is irrelivant!
Quite the opposite.

Doctrine tells us what the religion will exhort/encourage/direct people to do. Now, they may or may not follow through on it -- usually, some do, and some don't -- but the doctrine tells you what it will be. That is, if the religion or ideology is allowed to have the effect it desires upon ordinary folks, what will they end up being like?

And if the thing toward which the doctrine exhorts/encourages/ directs people is a BAD thing, then that tells you all you need to know about whether or not you're wise to tolerate the ideology. And if it's a GOOD thing, that tells you all you need to know about that.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:46 am

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:21 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:55 am
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:07 pm

Luther the father of a massive branch of christianity was a scurrlious antisemite.
Servetus who created hos own brand of protestantism murdered for Jesus.
Popes, bishops, and all luminaries of the church were evil, yet you tell me they were not christians.
Yet you are happy to tar all Muslims with the acts of a few terrorists.
You are a confused lad,
You should look up exceptionalism.
Your thinking in the above case is too shallow and narrow.
You need to break down and analyze the issue critically in their various components and perspectives.

A 'Christian' [as defined] is one who has entered into a personal contract with God/Jesus to comply with the terms of the contract stipulated solely with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So, Luther, Servetus, Popes, bishops, and all luminaries of the church, and anyone are 'Christian' if they were baptized and entered into personal contract with God/Jesus.

But the point is while the above are contractually Christians, they are also a human being with human nature which inherently has the potential to commit evil and violence. They may also enter into other contracts within their personal life.

A person as a contracted-Christian may enter into a contract as a soldier or policemen where the contractual terms allow killing under justified circumstances.
In this case, when the person killed enemies in a legal war, he is not acting as a contracted-Christian but as a contracted soldier or policemen.
In this case of sinning against the contract of being a Christian, it is up the person to face God/Jesus' judgment, wrath or forgiveness on Judgment Day.
It is wrong to accuse Christianity itself if a contracted-Christian sinned in killing other humans.



The contract terms that bind the Christian included an overriding pacifist maxim 'love all - even enemies'.

Therefore if Luther and others who acted outside the contractual terms as a Christian, e.g. hating and killing non-Christians, they cannot be acting as Christians per se.
Instead they are acting outside the scope of Christianity as human being and upon the human nature of evil and violence.

On the other hand, when contracted-Muslims killed in the name of Allah and Islam upon conditions of threats to the religion, their killing and violence are sanctioned by Allah with specific verses from the 6236 verses of the Quran. They are killing in accordance to the terms of contract as contracted-Muslims.
Christians are what Christianity has done.
I would never allow myself to be associated with that inhuman death cult.
You have not established the definition of "what is Christianity" and 'who is a Christian' in accordance to the Gospels, how can your statements above be valid and true?

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