Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

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Age
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:34 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:30 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:24 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:22 pm


The only confusion is between the two brain cells you have as you own brain.
So, why do you not provide some thing, which you would call evidence to support your BELIEVE that "mohammed's" words are NOT comparative with "jesus's" words? Then we would have some thing to LOOK AT and discuss.
Ooo ok.

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Are you going to provide ANY thing to compare this with?

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attofishpi
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by attofishpi » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:36 pm

Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:34 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:30 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:24 pm


So, why do you not provide some thing, which you would call evidence to support your BELIEVE that "mohammed's" words are NOT comparative with "jesus's" words? Then we would have some thing to LOOK AT and discuss.
Ooo ok.

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Are you going to provide ANY thing to compare this with?
Try to get at least one brain cell firing in synchronicity with the other - now it's your turn to show the 'comparative' that mor.ham.mad had to say.

Age
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:47 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:36 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:34 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:30 pm


Ooo ok.

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Are you going to provide ANY thing to compare this with?
Try to get at least one brain cell firing in synchronicity with the other - now it's your turn to show the 'comparative' that mor.ham.mad had to say.
WHAT? I said; BOTH "jesus"'s teachings AND "mohammad"'s teachings are in line and comparative with each other.

The MISINTERPRETATIONS, themselves, is what has caused any confusion.


That THEREFORE means, to me, that ALL the teachings are comparative.

You 'tried to' ridicule me by saying; The only confusion is between the two brain cells you have as you own brain.

Therefore, IF the ONLY confusion is between the two ONLY brain cells within this head, then enlighten us and SHOW where, how, and why what "mohammad" teaches is NOT comparative to "jesus's" teachings. I say they ARE. Whereas, you say they ARE NOT.

So, as I said earlier; provide some thing that you think would be evidence to support what you BELIEVE is true.

The EVIDENCE I HAVE is absolutely EVERY teaching from BOTH "jesus" AND "mohammad". They ARE in line with each other, and thus comparative. Therefore, I have given you the FREEDOM to pick or choose ABSOLUTELY ANY thing you like for YOUR evidence.

If you can NOT do it, then so be it.

But 'trying to' ridicule me again, when I had ALREADY OBVIOUSLY stated that EVERY teaching is evidence, SHOWS how you completely MISINTERPRETED what I said. (Which by the way brings us back to my MAIN POINT here in this thread).

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attofishpi
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by attofishpi » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:53 pm

Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:47 pm
The EVIDENCE I HAVE is absolutely EVERY teaching from BOTH "jesus" AND "mohammad". They ARE in line with each other, and thus comparative. Therefore, I have given you the FREEDOM to pick or choose ABSOLUTELY ANY thing you like for YOUR evidence.
NO.
I am being even more considerate than that.
I have quoted a statement purportedly from Christ.. Now YOU provide at least 1 comparative statement that mor.ham.mad said.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:07 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:06 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:02 am
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:51 pm
You make my argument for me. Thank you.
Well, if that's your argument, then what is this "Christendom" entity you blame for all the world's evils? It's not "Christ"; it's a "kingdom" set up by religious men, for their own reasons.
Well, if that's your argument, then what is this "Islam" entity you blame for all the world's evils? It's not "Muslims"; it's a "Phantom" set up by the West, for their own reasons.
Not at all. One has to judge an ideology by what it actually says.

The reason for doing so is very obvious; that not all proponents of an ideology or religion -- for better or worse -- actually do what the ideology teaches them they should do. But by looking at the ideology itself, we see in what direction the ideology desires to pull its proponents. And that keeps us from getting confused between the ideology in its "right" form, and the failing or inconsistent efforts of some of its proponents to actualize that ideology.

So, for example, some Nazis refused to kill Jews. And a few, like Schindler, actually aided keeping Jews alive. But will we say, then, that Nazism did not teach the destruction of Jews, because Schindler didn't do that? And will we say that examining Nazism as a creed is less telling than the behaviour of Oskar Schindler was?

Just so, you've got to look beyond the individuals trying to practice the ideology, and ask what the ideology itself rationalizes. Because that is the direction in which it will cause most people to gravitate.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:39 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:53 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:47 pm
The EVIDENCE I HAVE is absolutely EVERY teaching from BOTH "jesus" AND "mohammad". They ARE in line with each other, and thus comparative. Therefore, I have given you the FREEDOM to pick or choose ABSOLUTELY ANY thing you like for YOUR evidence.
NO.
I am being even more considerate than that.
I have quoted a statement purportedly from Christ.. Now YOU provide at least 1 comparative statement that mor.ham.mad said.
One has to be quite stunned when someone says something so completely and obviously wrong as Age has there, and yet delivers it with all the confidence of certainty. Only a complete lack of knowledge, plus a complete misunderstanding of the real purpose of philosophy could account for a combination of such wrongness, coupled with a complete lack of interest in doing anything but seeming to "win" by shutting down discussion rather than seeking the truth.

It's really breathtaking, I've got to say.

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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Sculptor » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:35 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:07 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:06 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:02 am

Well, if that's your argument, then what is this "Christendom" entity you blame for all the world's evils? It's not "Christ"; it's a "kingdom" set up by religious men, for their own reasons.
Well, if that's your argument, then what is this "Islam" entity you blame for all the world's evils? It's not "Muslims"; it's a "Phantom" set up by the West, for their own reasons.
Not at all. One has to judge an ideology by what it actually says.
Nah.
Judge not by words but by deeds.
1.89999 billion Muslins are peaceful and just want to get, the f u c k on with their lives.
Examine the deeds of the West and its continued de-stabilisation of the ME, and SE Asia.

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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Sculptor » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm

Judge not by word but by deed.

Most Muslims are simply born into "Islam".
Whilst I agree that Islam is violent, it is less so than Judaism, and most Christians are perfectly happy to take their instructions from the Old Testament sadly.

The Christian right in the US, in particular, seem very keen on vengeance and taking an eye for and eye (as well as a Ib of flesh for good measure).

Religions are so full of contradictions it does not really matter what the hell it says on the Holy Books. People are so full of contradictions, it does not matter what it says in the Holy Books. People do what they want and use the Scripture to justify their needs.
The Old Testament is so violent that it is easy enough to pick and choose something relevant.
In WWI, both sides were fighting for God.

It's Deeds not words.

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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:10 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:44 pm
Judge not by word but by deed.

Most Muslims are simply born into "Islam".
Whilst I agree that Islam is violent, it is less so than Judaism, and most Christians are perfectly happy to take their instructions from the Old Testament sadly.

The Christian right in the US, in particular, seem very keen on vengeance and taking an eye for and eye (as well as a Ib of flesh for good measure).

Religions are so full of contradictions it does not really matter what the hell it says on the Holy Books. People are so full of contradictions, it does not matter what it says in the Holy Books. People do what they want and use the Scripture to justify their needs.
The Old Testament is so violent that it is easy enough to pick and choose something relevant.
In WWI, both sides were fighting for God.

It's Deeds not words.
So if words do not matter, then your words don't matter as well?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:53 am

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:35 pm
Judge not by words but by deeds.
As an axiom for judging AMONG professing followers of any ideology, to decide who's authentic and who's not, that makes perfect sense.

But to judge the moral quality of the ideology itself, it doesn't make a lick of sense. Moreover, you can't even know how to "judge by deeds" unless you already know what particular "deeds" accord with the ideology. You don't know that until you have looked at the ideology, and what it says a "good" person does.

But if you're totally sold on saying that what the majority of Muslims actually believe and practice is the determining factor, then you could have a look at this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg Then maybe you can tell me again about those billions of Muslims you claim to know that are just getting on with life... :wink:

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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:34 am

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:53 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:47 pm
The EVIDENCE I HAVE is absolutely EVERY teaching from BOTH "jesus" AND "mohammad". They ARE in line with each other, and thus comparative. Therefore, I have given you the FREEDOM to pick or choose ABSOLUTELY ANY thing you like for YOUR evidence.
NO.
I am being even more considerate than that.
I have quoted a statement purportedly from Christ.. Now YOU provide at least 1 comparative statement that mor.ham.mad said.
ANY one or EVERY one of "mohammad's" statements will do. ALL of BOTH "mohammad's" AND "jesus's" teachings are based on what leads to thee peaceful "world", which WILL soon become. So, as I said, BOTH their teachings are in line with with each, AND thus comparative with each other.

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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:55 am

Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:08 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:08 am
I have already provided evidences of verses from the ideology of Islam that commanded Muslims to war against and kill non-Muslims under conditions of fasadan [FSD] which is any threat against the religion of Islam including 'disbelief of Islam'.
And I have ALREADY informed you that you have MISINTERPRETED those verses.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:08 am
Btw, have you read the 6236 verses of the Quran - the core authority of Islam, thoroughly?
No.

And there is NO need to.

If you think any of them portrays evil ideologies, then you will make them KNOWN.

I will then TELL YOU that you have MISINTERPRETED those verses.

But you will NOT be able to HEAR this, ANYWAY.

So, you WILL just keep on doing what you are now.
It is only intellectual retard would insist on the above.

Have you any sense of normal intellectual protocols and standards?

How can you make any judgement on any literal materials if you have not read and understand [not necessary agree with] the points therein.

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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:17 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:39 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:53 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:47 pm
The EVIDENCE I HAVE is absolutely EVERY teaching from BOTH "jesus" AND "mohammad". They ARE in line with each other, and thus comparative. Therefore, I have given you the FREEDOM to pick or choose ABSOLUTELY ANY thing you like for YOUR evidence.
NO.
I am being even more considerate than that.
I have quoted a statement purportedly from Christ.. Now YOU provide at least 1 comparative statement that mor.ham.mad said.
One has to be quite stunned when someone says something so completely and obviously wrong as Age has there, and yet delivers it with all the confidence of certainty. Only a complete lack of knowledge, plus a complete misunderstanding of the real purpose of philosophy could account for a combination of such wrongness, coupled with a complete lack of interest in doing anything but seeming to "win" by shutting down discussion rather than seeking the truth.

It's really breathtaking, I've got to say.
And NOTICE, NOT one bit of countering any thing I HAVE said, from you.

1. IF one HAS TO BE quite stunned when I say have said some thing so completely and obviously WRONG, then HIGHLIGHT what I said was WRONG, and then EXPLAIN WHY, to you, it is WRONG. At least then I have some thing to respond to. Otherwise, we all HAVE TO ASSUME what it is that you are actually talking about.

2. The reason WHY I deliver EVERY thing I say with the confidence of CERTAINTY is because, unlike most of written here in this forum, I can back up and support what I say.

3. You say I have a COMPLETE LACK of knowledge, PLUS a COMPLETE misunderstanding of the REAL purpose of 'philosophy'. Now, this is delivered with all the confidence of CERTAINTY, so best then you EXPLAIN in FULL detail what the REAL purpose of 'philosophy' IS. THEN, we WILL be able to SEE how much actual KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING of 'philosophy' you have. You say I have a COMPLETE LACK of knowledge AND a COMPLETE misunderstanding so WILL you ENLIGHTEN 'us', or at least 'me'? (If you do NOT, however, then that says MORE about YOUR 'confidence of certainty' than any thing else.

4. AGAIN, you say I have a WRONGNESS, so AGAIN what is this WRONGNESS, which you purport I HAVE?

5. You say I have a COMPLETE 'lack of interest' in doing any thing but seeming to "win" by shutting down discussion. This is hilarious from my perspective, as it is I who is consistently REMAINING OPEN and asking CLARIFYING questions of the "other" in order to obtain a BETTER understanding from them and their perspective. Unfortunately though, to your CLOSED ones you SEE this as "shutting down discussion". You have got to be joking here.
Even what you are responding to, it was I who said I do NOT see what 'you', so called non-"muslim" people, see, and then also explained WHY 'you', people, ARE CONFUSED, from my perspective. IF ANY one wanted to then keep the discussion OPEN and FLOWING, then they would HAVE just ASKED me some clarifying questions. (Hitherto, no one has yet.) Instead I got some response that was just ANOTHER attempt at "ridicule" AND "humiliation". I then, also to keep the discussion OPEN, said; So, why do you not provide some thing, which you would call evidence to support your BELIEVE that "mohammed's" words are NOT comparative with "jesus's" words? Then we would have some thing to LOOK AT and discuss. So, from what I can SEE, it was ME who has tried to keep this discussion OPEN and FLOWING, and it was you and "another" who has 'tried' to 'shut down the discussion'. You have NOT said any thing here other than I am WRONG and I COMPLETELY lack knowledge and understanding of things.

5. Remember it is 'you', human beings, who are STILL 'seeking truth'. I have ALREADY STATED many times HOW to FIND and SEE the Truth of things almost immediately. I am NOT 'seeking truth', because the Truth IS ALREADY KNOWN.

I am here, in this forum, NOT to 'seek truth' but to learn how to communicate with 'you', human beings, so that 'you', human beings, will finally wake up to yourselves and SEE the actual Truth of things. I am also here, in this forum, to use 'you', human beings, of the days of when this is written to SHOW just how 'you', human beings, are extremely CLOSED, how you ended up CLOSED, and WHY you became SO CLOSED as you are now.

Here is some advice, IF some one writes some thing with the confidence of CERTAINTY, then PROVE you are OPEN, by just asking them what it IS that they are actually saying and meaning, and explain that from your perspective what is being said seems to far fetched to have any truth to it. Doing this instead of doing EXACTLY what you did right here, by saying the "other" is WRONG because they LACK knowledge and understanding just PROVES how CLOSED you are, and how much 'you' write with a confidence of CERTAINTY.

You wrote that I am WRONG, so TELL US what is WRONG in what I wrote, and then TELL US why it is, supposedly, WRONG.

You also wrote that I LACK knowledge AND understanding, so TELL US what that 'knowledge' AND 'understanding' actually IS.

You SEEM very CONFIDENT in what you wrote, now go and PROVE IT, by SHOWING US how much knowledge AND understanding you REALLY have and SHOW us what is actually RIGHT.

We WILL then SEE why you REALLY are 'taken for breath'.

Age
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:28 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:53 am
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:35 pm
Judge not by words but by deeds.
As an axiom for judging AMONG professing followers of any ideology, to decide who's authentic and who's not, that makes perfect sense.

But to judge the moral quality of the ideology itself, it doesn't make a lick of sense. Moreover, you can't even know how to "judge by deeds" unless you already know what particular "deeds" accord with the ideology. You don't know that until you have looked at the ideology, and what it says a "good" person does.

But if you're totally sold on saying that what the majority of Muslims actually believe and practice is the determining factor, then you could have a look at this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg Then maybe you can tell me again about those billions of Muslims you claim to know that are just getting on with life... :wink:
Have you heard of 'confirmation bias'?

ALL of 'you', adult human beings, have and use this 'confirmation biases', which exists because of the already held BELIEFS, which you ALL have, hold onto AND maintain.

Once again, this is just ANOTHER discussion/issue being turned into "one side" against "another side".

As long as 'you', human beings, LOOK AT things from your ASSUMPTIONS, based on your previous experiences AND LOOK FROM your BELIEFS, then 'you', human beings, will keep doing what you have for thousands upon thousands of years, and which is WHAT IS causing AND creating this unpeaceful and warring "world", which you ALL say that you do NOT want to live in.

For a supposedly most intelligent species, 'you', human being' species is the most STUPID and IDIOTIC.

How many times do I have to TELL YOU how to STOP doing what IS causing and creating what it IS that you do NOT want?

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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:38 am

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:53 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:47 pm
The EVIDENCE I HAVE is absolutely EVERY teaching from BOTH "jesus" AND "mohammad". They ARE in line with each other, and thus comparative. Therefore, I have given you the FREEDOM to pick or choose ABSOLUTELY ANY thing you like for YOUR evidence.
NO.
I am being even more considerate than that.
I have quoted a statement purportedly from Christ.. Now YOU provide at least 1 comparative statement that mor.ham.mad said.
There are good verses that are comparable to Christianity's good verses but are very misleading if we do not take the ethos of the whole Quran into context.

Let me present the above in the whole context of the 6236 verses of the Quran - the ultimate authority of Islam.
  • 1. There are 6236 verses in the Quran.
    2. 3400++ or 55% of the 6236 verses included a whole range of evilness and violence from 10% to 99% targeted at non-Muslims, the infidel or kuffar.
    3. There are a few verses [20++ or <0.5%] which are apparently 'good' in the Quran.
    4. However what is 'good' in the Quran is only applicable to Muslims not to non-Muslims.
Therefore if we are to compare what is good between Christianity and Islam there are no similarities in this sense.

Even if there is an inkling of good towards non-Muslims they are abrogated by later evil and violent verses in the Quran or outweighed by the 3400++ evil and violent verses in the context of the whole Quran.
While 46:15 advocate kindness to parents;
  • 46:15. And We have commended unto man kindness [ihsan] toward parents. His mother beareth him with reluctance, and bringeth him forth with reluctance, and the bearing of him and the weaning of him is thirty months, till, when he attaineth full strength and reacheth forty years, he saith: My Lord! Arouse me that I may give thanks [ashkura] for the favour wherewith Thou hast favoured me and my parents, and that I may do right acceptable unto Thee. And be gracious unto me In the matter of my seed [offsprings]. Lo! I have turned unto Thee repentant [tubtu], and lo! I am of those [Muslims] who surrender (unto Thee).
The above is abrogated by 9:23 to be wary of one's parents if they are disbelievers.
  • 9:23. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends [WLY; awliyāa] if they take pleasure in disbelief [l-kuf'ra; as infidels] rather than faith [AMN; l-īmāni]. Whoso of you [Muslims] taketh them [infidels] for friends [WLY: awliyāa], such [Muslims] are wrong doers [ZLM: l-ẓālimūna] [sinful].
Thus 9:23 commands Muslims are to be good to their parents and kins only if they are Muslims, but not if they are disbelievers, infidels aka kuffar.

There are verses which seemingly appear to be friendly with non-Muslims when Muhammad was trying to convince them to convert to Islam. But they reject Muhammad's preaching as a fraud, Muhammad took the aggressive and violent stance against non-Muslims, especially the Jews and Christians;
  • 3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends biṭānatan بِطَانَةً ب ط ن ] others [infidels] than your own folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper [ʿanittum عَنِتُّمْ ع ن ت ] you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand.
There are many other such verses where Muslims are not to befriend non-Muslims.

The above are a part of the full range of evil and violent elements within the 3400++ verses that heavily condemned the non-Muslims as worthless thus no second thoughts if they are killed.

What is critical is there are no verses from the Quran that is comparable to the overriding maxim of 'love all - even enemies' in the Gospel. As such, this overriding maxim overrides whatever verses that has any element of violence in the Gospel.

Vice versa, there are no terrible evil and violent verses of such nature as those in the Quran in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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