Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Age
Posts: 3287
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:50 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:47 am
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:45 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
A phobia is an irrational fear.


Image

Can anyone prove me wrong on the above?
Posting that stat is paranoia.
The USA caused 600,000 deaths in Iraq alone. It waged a war based on lies.
Who is the terrorist?

Do the maths!

The USA has caused around 1 million deaths around the world in the same period.
The population of the USA is 300 million
Population of Islam is 1.8 billion.
The makes WHO the most violent?
You are off track and has veered into 'whataboutery.'
In the OP I did not blame the whole 1.8 billion Muslims.
Note I raised a specific thread on that;
Do Not Blame Muslims
I have also mentioned we should not focus the blaming Muslims even the terrorists who killed in the name of their God because in most cases, they were compelled by their God to commit those evil acts, else they will go to hell.

Note I wrote above;
  • The ideology of Islam is loaded with tons of evil and violent elements that exhort Muslims to war against and kill non-Muslims.
I have told you numerous times ALREADY, the ideology of islam is NOT loaded with tons of evil and violent elements, and that it is 'you', human beings, who have interpreted evil and violent elements into what is essentially about PEACE.

I ALSO have explained WHY, but you were, once again, to BLINDED to even consider this, let alone LOOK INTO this and delve a bit deeper. So, I just let you carry on with your absolutely deluded vision of things here.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:47 am
I have the evidences from the Quran to support the above.
You do NOT have the evidence from the quran to support the above at all. All of what you have is a very DISTORTED perception. Just like the ones who commit evil and violent acts have. What the "world" would be much better without is people like 'you' and 'them', and when ALL of 'you' are killed off, then the BETTER things will become.

Also, as I have previously stated, which you could NEVER comprehend, is 'you', people, can be KILLED OFF without a single mark being done to the human body.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:47 am
In addition I mentioned it is only appx 20% or 360 million of Muslims who are vulnerable to obey the commands of Allah in the Quran as compelled by a threat of hell if they don't.

Re your 'whataboutery' you should take note of the following;

There are all sorts of carnage, evil and violent acts by all sorts of humans driven by all sorts of ideologies and all sorts of reason since humans emerged till the present and into the future.
Humanity must address, resolve and prevent/minimize all the above evil and violent acts without exceptions.

The effective strategy to the above is to break the whole problem of evil acts into common patterns and smaller units to enable them to be resolved more efficiently.
There are two main categories of evil acts, i.e. secular and religious-related.
Within the religious -related, there is the Islam-related evils and violence.

If you have written a thesis you would have understood the Problem Statement of a thesis should be as specific as possible which I am doing in confining my issue in this case to Islamic-related violence and the element of 'islamophobia'.

I suggest you answer the OP specific question.
To insist the fear and critique of the ideology of Islam is islamophobic, is an insult to one's intelligence.

One point to note is why it is Islam the only religion that is associated with 'phobia' and not to other religions?

Age
Posts: 3287
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:05 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:45 am
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:43 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:11 pm

You mean you don't think it's actually true?

Or do you mean that it's true, but you don't think it matters, for some reason?
I mean that blaming 1.8 billion people in "Islam" for the actions of a small number would force us to consider what we have done in "Christendom".
That is the game that we would loose since we have killed many more people than Islam by far.
"We"? Did you kill people? I certainly didn't. Do you regard yourself as a member of this "Christendom" thing you talk about? I certainly don't. I don't think it has anything to do with you, or with me, or with Christ.
So, IF 'you', a so called "christian", do not want you nor "christianity" to be blamed for what some so called "christians" do to "muslims", then WHY blame "islam" and what some so called "muslims" do to so called "christians"?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:45 am
The word itself is obviously a hybridization of "Christ" and "kingdom," but Christ said very decisively, "My kingdom is not of this world," and "Love your enemies, and do good to those who hate you." So whatever these "Christendomers"? of yours did, it's decidedly not Christian. I think that deserves a rethink.
Hang on I have heard "american" presidents say they FIGHT and will KILL "others" in the name of God and/or "christianity".

'you', human beings, are so self-centered that it does NOT matter what a human being called "jesus" said. To 'you', human beings, IF and WHEN some one hurts the ones close to you, most of you then do not care what "jesus" said and you just give your self's permission to do whatever you want to do to "others". No matter how much 'you', call yourself a "christian", you are so weak and insecure that if "another" human being hurts you or some one close to you, you will forget all about being "christian" like and will do what it takes to hurt the "other" more so. The majority of 'you', so called "christians", are less "christian" and more hypocritical than the ones you HATE.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:45 am
However, let us set that aside. Is it your view, then, that if one evil was done by one putatively "religious" group, it excuses and offsets the evil done by another? I'm just trying to figure out what point you could be making. You seem to think it's somehow wrong to list the statistics of one evildoer, because you say you can list a higher statistic from another...
It is WRONG to list the statistics of any wrong doing, and then using that statistic as an acceptable reason to 'try to' argue for your own self-interest and already held BELIEFS against "another" group of human beings. What makes this worst is the statistics on the "side" that is being argued for is "better" when the statistics are FAR WORSE.

If you want to so call "argue" for one side, then put the statistics of BOTH sides up for ALL to see.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:45 am
It's not obvious to me that that's making a lot of sense.
The actual Truth of things are NOT obvious to those who have a very ONE-SIDED view of things.

Age
Posts: 3287
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:35 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
A phobia is an irrational fear.

The fear of Islam's advocacy of evil and violent acts upon non-believers [as evident] is real fear, thus not a phobia.
The PRESUMPTION that islam has an advocacy of evil and violent acts upon non-believers, to START with, is absurdity at its highest level.

To then be fearful of a non existing thing is a completely and utterly irrational fear.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
The ideology of Islam is loaded with tons of evil and violent elements that exhort Muslims to war against and kill non-Muslims.
While the majority of Muslims do not adhere to the above commands of Allah, there is a pool of 20% of Muslims, i.e. 300 millions who are evil prone who would obey Allah's command to the letter.
To use the phrase 'evil prone' and say that there is some number of human being who are 'evil prone' is about as logical as saying there is a number of human beings and they are 'good prone' IS ILLOGICAL. To suggest such a thing is absurd, but to then BELIEVE such a thing, as though it is some sort of real thing, borders on the complete insanity. And all to just 'try to' "justify" your own ALREADY held BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

Also, to ASSUME that Allah's command is to harm, hurt, or damage any human being is so far of the Truth of things as well. Allah was just using a different language at a different time. IF 'you', human beings, take things out of context, misinterpret and misunderstand things, then that is just another matter, which would be better LOOKED AT, instead of 'trying to' judge "others" as being less than your own selves.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
These evil prone Muslims has committed terrible carnage of evil and violent acts upon non-Muslims in terms of >100++ millions since Islam first emerged 1400 years ago and had continued to the present as evident below;

Image

The above is a trend that will continue into the future if the root causes are not addressed.
And, as already been POINTED OUT by another poster here, the LOL "evil prone" "christians" have committed FAR MORE terrible carnage of evil and violent acts up "muslims", which can be evidence by STATISTICS.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
With the above real carnage over 1400 years of Islam history to the present and potentially into the future, obviously the fear of the ideology of Islam is definitely real and RATIONAL.
And the social upheaval caused by so called "christianity" for over 2000 years would be some thing if it was ALSO LOOKED AT and delved into AND changed, for the better.

The JUDGING of "others", which has come from a misguided "christianity" could be argued as one of the biggest causes of ALL of humanities problems and ills that exist now, when this is written.

The way so called "christianity" looks at and sees "others" who are NOT of the same like nor of the same group has a LOT to answer for.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
Since the above fear is real and potentially real, the carnage and potential evil & violence must be critiqued rationally.
Considering you are just 'trying to' "justify" your own IRRATIONAL FEARS, DISTORTED BELIEFS, and MISJUDGMENTS of "OTHERS", then I suggest you LOOK AT your OWN 'self', be Honest and OPEN about your OWN WRONG DOING, and then SEEK to change your own SELF, for the better.

You are CERTAINLY NOT going to achieve any thing productive nor helpful the way you are going now. In fact you are going to cause more HATE, thus MORE FIGHTING, and ultimately MORE WARRING and KILLING into the future. That is, IF you are allowed to continue to EXPRESS and SHOW your HATRED of "others".
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
To insist the fear, thus critique of the ideology of Islam is irrational, thus islamophobic, is an insult to one's intelligence.
You are FREE to critique what you SEE is WRONG, but be forewarned that just because you SEE some thing and BELIEVE it is true, does NOT necessarily mean that it is even there, let alone true at all.

Critique the parts of islam that you SEE are WRONG. Name them so that we can all LOOK AT what you SEE, then let US discuss it, and SEE if your FEARS are actually IRRATIONAL or RATIONAL to start with in the beginning.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
Can anyone prove me wrong on the above?
YES.

But till the day 'you' "die", you will keep saying that I have NOT countered any thing you have said.

So, it does NOT matter if any one CAN prove you wrong, you will NEVER be able to SEE it, let alone even RECOGNIZE it and ACCEPT IT.

For most human beings I observe I can SEE that they have an opportunity to change and become Truly OPEN. But for 'you', "veritas aequitas", I have NOT yet observed any ability of this happening with you. So, I will keep USING YOU until either we part ways or you actually do SHOW some SIGN that you COULD possible change and become OPEN.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 6356
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm

Age wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:05 pm
WHY blame "islam" and what some so called "muslims" do to so called "christians"?
I did not say these words. They are yours. I did not talk about "Muslims," or even about "Islam." I only asked if the statistic given above was true or not, and what the associated argument made by someone else was.
Hang on I have heard "american" presidents say they FIGHT and will KILL "others" in the name of God and/or "christianity".

I have not heard this.

But if you had, then you will hear in life a great many things that will turn out not to be true. You can judge by the measure of consistency between what Christ Himself told such a person to do, and what that same person actually does. Christ said we were to judge in just that way.
The majority of 'you', so called "christians", are less "christian" and more hypocritical than the ones you HATE.
Wouldn't it be convenient if this were true? But as I said, you will find there are a great many untrue ideas in this world. Statistically, what you are saying has proved obviously wrong, historically. But even were it true, it would not invalidate Christianity; it would only show that nobody here was presently practicing it.
It is WRONG to list the statistics of any wrong doing,
That cannot be the case, for at least two reasons: firstly, that SOME statistic has to be true; and to ask if this one is it is not wrong. But secondly, in calling this action "wrong," you would yourself be guilty of making this one out to be one of the wrong statistics -- and you would be doing the very thing you're saying we ought not to do.
What makes this worst is the statistics on the "side" that is being argued for is "better" when the statistics are FAR WORSE.
This is a bad argument. According to that logic, if I kill two people it's okay, because my neighbour killed three. Yet anyone can see that there's no reason that BOTH aren't wrong. Indeed they are. So the fact that I killed two people would be a reasonable statistic to quote, regardless of what my neighbour did.

Sorry, Age...what you're saying doesn't make any more sense. It's the same error Sculptor was making.

Age
Posts: 3287
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:05 pm
WHY blame "islam" and what some so called "muslims" do to so called "christians"?
I did not say these words. They are yours.
I ALSO did NOT say these words, by themselves. This is just YOUR narrowed presentation of my words.

What I actually said, which you "conveniently" left part of it out was: So, IF 'you', a so called "christian", do not want you nor "christianity" to be blamed for what some so called "christians" do to "muslims", then WHY blame "islam" and what some so called "muslims" do to so called "christians"?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
I did not talk about "Muslims," or even about "Islam."
The point I was 'trying to' get across was, You said you do not regard yourself a member of that "christendom" that kills "others". You also do not think that that killing has any thing to do with your nor with christ. Well the exact same principle applies to the majority of those called "muslims" do not think that when so called "muslims" kill "others" then that has much to do with them nor with islam.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
I only asked if the statistic given above was true or not, and what the associated argument made by someone else was.
It was NOT the only thing you asked, which is evidenced in your post.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
Hang on I have heard "american" presidents say they FIGHT and will KILL "others" in the name of God and/or "christianity".

I have not heard this.
If you listen harder or deeper behind what some people say, you might hear that they fight AND kill in the name of God.

These poor and disillusioned individuals actually think they are 'fighting evil', and thus doing God's work, by killing "others". This poor individuals do not even recognize that it is THEM who is doing wrong and causing MORE EVIL in the "world".
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
But if you had, then you will hear in life a great many things that will turn out not to be true.
For example?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
You can judge by the measure of consistency between what Christ Himself told such a person to do, and what that same person actually does. Christ said we were to judge in just that way.
Judge in what way?

In the way 'you', adult human beings, do the exact opposite of what you say to do and say not to do, as told to you by "jesus"?

If yes, then it would be about time ALL of 'you', adult human beings, just STOPPED, took a good long LOOK AT yourselves, were OPEN and Honest ALL of the wrong doing that you ALL do, and then just do what it takes to change, for the better. Not necessarily for your own selves but for the ones who are Truly IMPORTANT, and that is ALL of your CHILDREN?

Of, do 'you', adults, NOT even recognize, let alone SEE, the amount of inconsistency between what "jesus" told 'you', and what 'you' actually do?

From what I have observed a huge majority of the ones who are so called "christians" are the MOST inconsistent with "jesus's" teachings.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
The majority of 'you', so called "christians", are less "christian" and more hypocritical than the ones you HATE.
Wouldn't it be convenient if this were true? But as I said, you will find there are a great many untrue ideas in this world.
Provide examples of how this is supposedly untrue.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
Statistically, what you are saying has proved obviously wrong, historically.
With what proof AND evidence do you have?

But even were it true, it would not invalidate Christianity; it would only show that nobody here was presently practicing it.[/quote]

What I have said has NEVER been about 'invalidating' what "jesus" has said at all. In fact the very opposite is True. What "jesus" says validates itself.

What I have been saying is that at present, when this is written, adult human beings have just about lost ALL the True aspects of ALL religions and of the ones who started talking about or introducing them.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
It is WRONG to list the statistics of any wrong doing,
That cannot be the case, for at least two reasons: firstly, that SOME statistic has to be true; and to ask if this one is it is not wrong. But secondly, in calling this action "wrong," you would yourself be guilty of making this one out to be one of the wrong statistics -- and you would be doing the very thing you're saying we ought not to do.
What I FIND MORE WRONG is when people like 'you', "immanuel can", leave out ALL of what I have actually written and thus said, and ONLY reply to a part of what I have actually said as though that is the truth of things. This I FIND a very sneaking and cunningly deceptive way to behave. Some say this is exactly like HOW adam and eve were deceived.

What I actually WROTE and SAID was: It is WRONG to list the statistics of any wrong doing, and then using that statistic as an acceptable reason to 'try to' argue for your own self-interest and already held BELIEFS against "another" group of human beings.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
What makes this worst is the statistics on the "side" that is being argued for is "better" when the statistics are FAR WORSE.
This is a bad argument. According to that logic, if I kill two people it's okay, because my neighbour killed three.
But that was OBVIOUSLY NOT any "argument" I was making.

I was just POINTING OUT that IF was is going to use the statistic of "this many people" have been killed by this so called "group of people", and that is the reason for rational fear, then it would be MUCH BETTER IF the other statistic was also shown of just how many people have been killed on the "other side" by the "side", which the one 'trying to' argue for is the "better" side.

Providing this statistic would be a MUCH BETTER thing do, especially considering the number is much higher, AND if it is true of there is one reason for being a 'rational fear' of a high statistical number, then that means the so called "other side" must have much MORE to fear.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
Yet anyone can see that there's no reason that BOTH aren't wrong. Indeed they are. So the fact that I killed two people would be a reasonable statistic to quote, regardless of what my neighbour did.
So WHY NOT just quote BOTH statistics?

WHY quote ONLY ONE? To do so, implies there is secretive or deception, underlining the motive behind what is being exposed. NOT providing ALL the facts can be very easily SEEN as just being a misleading thing to do.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
Sorry, Age...what you're saying doesn't make any more sense. It's the same error Sculptor was making.
AND what error is that exactly which you think or believe I am making?

My main points were SHOWING that just like you do NOT like being associated with the killing being done by "side" of things, then ALSO the majority on the "other side" of things do NOT like also being associated by the killing done by their "side". I also just wanted to point out the inconsistency of providing the statistics of ONLY "one side" as though that is a legitimate premise for their argument, especially considering the statistic of the "other side" is FAR WORSE, which I was just SHOWING as well.

So, I am NOT sure what ERROR you are SEEING here that I am making.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 6356
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:32 pm

Age wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:57 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:05 pm
WHY blame "islam" and what some so called "muslims" do to so called "christians"?
I did not say these words. They are yours.
I ALSO did NOT say these words, by themselves. This is just YOUR narrowed presentation of my words.
It does not matter. You misrepresented me from the get-go. I feel no obligation to respond to something that you may wish I had said, and be earnest to make me say, but which I did not.

Be reasonable.
If you listen harder or deeper behind what some people say, you might hear that they fight AND kill in the name of God.

I have heard it, often and recently, from radical Islamists. I have not heard it at all from Christians or, for that matter, from American politicians.

Again, you must not put words into other people's mouths.
Judge in what way?
In exactly the ways outlined in Matthew chapter 7.
From what I have observed a huge majority of the ones who are so called "christians" are the MOST inconsistent with "jesus's" teachings.
Then you don't know any real Christians. I can't cure that for you.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
The majority of 'you', so called "christians", are less "christian" and more hypocritical than the ones you HATE.
Wouldn't it be convenient if this were true? But as I said, you will find there are a great many untrue ideas in this world.
Provide examples of how this is supposedly untrue.
You need to know some history, too. Look at the involvement Christians in medicine, the arts, education, labour reform, prison reform, foreign missions, mental-health care, child-labour reform, the anti-slavery movement, human rights, foreign aid...how long need I go on?
With what proof AND evidence do you have?
As above.

I'm going to pause there. You write way too much, and gratuitously argue with every point anyone ever says to you. A conversation requires the common tracking of points, not automatic gainsaying. So we'll see what you do with this much, and then we'll see if the rest is worth any time.

I suspect it won't be, but hope springs eternal. I'll give you the chance, at least.

User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5329
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:53 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
A phobia is an irrational fear.

The fear of Islam's advocacy of evil and violent acts upon non-believers [as evident] is real fear, thus not a phobia.

The ideology of Islam is loaded with tons of evil and violent elements that exhort Muslims to war against and kill non-Muslims.
While the majority of Muslims do not adhere to the above commands of Allah, there is a pool of 20% of Muslims, i.e. 300 millions who are evil prone who would obey Allah's command to the letter.

These evil prone Muslims has committed terrible carnage of evil and violent acts upon non-Muslims in terms of >100++ millions since Islam first emerged 1400 years ago and had continued to the present as evident below;

Image

The above is a trend that will continue into the future if the root causes are not addressed.

With the above real carnage over 1400 years of Islam history to the present and potentially into the future, obviously the fear of the ideology of Islam is definitely real and RATIONAL.

Since the above fear is real and potentially real, the carnage and potential evil & violence must be critiqued rationally.

To insist the fear, thus critique of the ideology of Islam is irrational, thus islamophobic, is an insult to one's intelligence.

Can anyone prove me wrong on the above?
This type crap is easily explored: see this if you care to learn what this is all about.
Hint: You'll see and hear Daniel Dennett speak on the topic.

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8168
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:54 pm

Image

Could you elaborate on this? Where does your evidence come from and how are you defining 'Deadly Terror Attacks'? 'Terror attack' is a grammatical abomination (what a surprise, coming from yanks :roll: ) What is a 'deadly terror' and how the fuck do you attack someone with 'a terror'??

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Sculptor » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:51 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:45 am
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:43 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:11 pm

You mean you don't think it's actually true?

Or do you mean that it's true, but you don't think it matters, for some reason?
I mean that blaming 1.8 billion people in "Islam" for the actions of a small number would force us to consider what we have done in "Christendom".
That is the game that we would loose since we have killed many more people than Islam by far.
"We"? Did you kill people? I certainly didn't. Do you regard yourself as a member of this "Christendom" thing you talk about? I certainly don't. I don't think it has anything to do with you, or with me, or with Christ.
You make my argument for me. Thank you.

The word itself is obviously a hybridization of "Christ" and "kingdom," but Christ said very decisively, "My kingdom is not of this world," and "Love your enemies, and do good to those who hate you." So whatever these "Christendomers"? of yours did, it's decidedly not Christian. I think that deserves a rethink.

However, let us set that aside. Is it your view, then, that if one evil was done by one putatively "religious" group, it excuses and offsets the evil done by another? I'm just trying to figure out what point you could be making. You seem to think it's somehow wrong to list the statistics of one evildoer, because you say you can list a higher statistic from another...

It's not obvious to me that that's making a lot of sense.
However, as a citizen of a democracy you are partly responsible for the actions of your government.
That would make you a terrorist.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 6356
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:02 am

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:51 pm
You make my argument for me. Thank you.
Well, if that's your argument, then what is this "Christendom" entity you blame for all the world's evils? It's not "Christ"; it's a "kingdom" set up by religious men, for their own reasons.

That's a good a description of something like "The Irish Troubles," for example, as you're going to get. It wasn't really that the two sides were "Catholic" and "Protestant": it was that they were native Irish versus English "colonists," with national ownership as the stakes, not some "religious" goal.

Likewise, the "Crusades," or as we really should term them, the "Counter-Crusades," since Islam had already been storming across North Africa and Southern Europe for centuries by the time the brief interlude called "The Crusades" actually happened. The motives were not "Christian" in any sense, since no motive or rationale for such a thing exists anywhere in the Bible, and the goals were manifestly territorial, economic, strategic and this-worldly.

So a little historical knowledge there is much better than a whole lot of flinging blame in the wrong direction.
However, as a citizen of a democracy you are partly responsible for the actions of your government.
Heh. :lol: Not one bit.

In the first place, my government has never "terrorized" anyone, even if you suppose the American government has. In the second place, unless I voted for the "terrorist" action specifically, or had reasonable grounds to suppose the guy I was going to vote for was likely to commit some kind of "terrorist" action, I would bear no blame at all for what he did nor did not do. And only on the supposition that the majority vote tipped on one vote...my vote...could I be accused of having caused his opportunity.

All of which is clearly absurd. So no, I'm not responsible for the actions of my government...thank God. And neither is anyone who merely voted for a candidate in good conscience. After all, people have free will about what they do; we can vote them in, but we can't guarantee their behaviour afterward. We can only trust what they say, as far as we're willing to do so.

Age
Posts: 3287
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:06 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:32 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:57 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm

I did not say these words. They are yours.
I ALSO did NOT say these words, by themselves. This is just YOUR narrowed presentation of my words.
It does not matter. You misrepresented me from the get-go. I feel no obligation to respond to something that you may wish I had said, and be earnest to make me say, but which I did not.

Be reasonable.
What are you on about now?

YOU quoted ONLY a part of a sentence I wrote, and then responded to that part ONLY, which when LOOKED AT fully, you completely and utterly distorted my WHOLE sentence.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:32 pm
If you listen harder or deeper behind what some people say, you might hear that they fight AND kill in the name of God.

I have heard it, often and recently, from radical Islamists. I have not heard it at all from Christians or, for that matter, from American politicians.

Again, you must not put words into other people's mouths.
Why do you keep thinking I am putting words into "other" people's mouths. The very act of you NOT quoting me FULLY could be SEEN as very deceptive in nature and a way of "putting words" into "another's mouth". To leave out words that I actually said, just like you did, is to 'try' and "put words" or an attempt at 'trying to' put a very deceitful SPIN on what I was actually saying.

Now, If you have NOT heard some thing, then you have NOT heard it. BUT, if I have heard some thing, then I have heard it.

It is REALLY that SIMPLE. And, if you have NOT heard some thing, then that does NOT mean that it has not been said. It just means you have NOT heard it.

American politicians some times decide to go to war, in order to terrify and/or kill "others", because those "others" are destroying "their "christian" way of life", with "God bless america", being said also. As if God cares about a parcel of land called "america" and the people that live their, over all other parcels of lands and all the peoples who live on those lands. To want to hurt, harm, terrorize, injure, or kill "another" human being in the name of God, Allah, "islam", or "christianity" is beyond stupidity and ridiculousness. Nothing more needs to be said.

Some of the soldiers fighting AND killing "others" are so called "christians" and they actually believe that killing "others" in the name of 'God' or 'christ' is the right thing to do.

Just like you, a so called "christian", have a BELIEVE that so called "middle east" "islam" "soldiers" are doing the wrong thing by killing innocent"christians", so to do so called "muslims" have a BELIEVE that so called "american" "christian" "soldiers" are doing the wrong thing by killing innocent "muslims".

You BOTH are as EQUALLY as bad and as EQUALLY WRONG as each other.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:32 pm
Judge in what way?
In exactly the ways outlined in Matthew chapter 7.
Whatever that actually is? I do NOT know.

And, whatever version you are actually referring to? I do NOT know.

And also, whatever personal interpretation you take on, from whatever version you are actually referring to? I do NOT know.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:32 pm
From what I have observed a huge majority of the ones who are so called "christians" are the MOST inconsistent with "jesus's" teachings.
Then you don't know any real Christians. I can't cure that for you.
It is people just like 'you', "immanuel can", who call yourselves "real christians" who are the MOST SINFUL of ALL people.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:09 pm
Wouldn't it be convenient if this were true? But as I said, you will find there are a great many untrue ideas in this world.
Provide examples of how this is supposedly untrue.
You need to know some history, too. Look at the involvement Christians in medicine, the arts, education, labour reform, prison reform, foreign missions, mental-health care, child-labour reform, the anti-slavery movement, human rights, foreign aid...how long need I go on?
You seem to be coming from some sort of BELIEF that I am attacking "christianity", itself. To make it CLEAR - I am NOT.

I said; The majority of 'you', so called "christians", are less "christian" and more hypocritical than the ones you HATE. Forget about ALL the "good" that 'you' people do. I am just talking about ALL the WRONG that 'you' people do, which you ALL do NOT like to LOOK AT and DISCUSS.

You are right in that you could go on and on and on telling us readers just how "good" you are and keep telling us about only all the "good" that you do. But it is the WRONG that you do, which NEEDS to be changed, and is what "jesus" and God WANT 'you' to LOOK AT and CHANGE.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:32 pm
With what proof AND evidence do you have?
As above.

I'm going to pause there. You write way too much, and gratuitously argue with every point anyone ever says to you. A conversation requires the common tracking of points, not automatic gainsaying. So we'll see what you do with this much, and then we'll see if the rest is worth any time.

I suspect it won't be, but hope springs eternal. I'll give you the chance, at least.
Again I am NOT attacking "christianity". I am attacking people like 'you' who are on "one side", and only LOOK AT and SEE the "good" that that "side" does and only LOOKS AT and SEES the WRONG that the "other side" does.

For your information, there is NO "sides" at all. 'you' are ALL human beings.

If 'you' are a supposed "christian" and DO what "christ" said to do, that is; Love thy neighbour as your OWN self.

You started a post with; "We"? So, you from the very outset are setting up a "us" verses "them" attitude. You then went on to LOOK AT "radical muslims" as though they are the "bad" people, whereas "we" are the "good" people. This very type of behavior goes AGAINST the very thing of "christianity" and of 'God' themselves.

The VERY THING God and "christ" tell you NOT to do, you from the very outset START doing.

This IS the very POINT I am making, wanted to HIGHLIGHT and am SHOWING.

I, unlike you, do NOT look at "sides". I just LOOK AT and OBSERVE what ALL of 'you', adult human beings, do.

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 4975
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:10 am

Your like that guy on a sports tream who keeps talking about homosexuals and how bad they are....and is one.

All you talk about is Islam, or how God does not exist...and it makes you come off as a victim noone can take seriously.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 6356
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:34 am

Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:06 am
I, unlike you, do NOT look at "sides".
For your own sake, it's probably time you did.

When you do, you'll see that there's been two types of people talking to you since you got to this site. One makes fun of you, mimics you, dismisses you, and things it's fair game to provoke you. Another side tries to treat you fairly.

But so far, you haven't figured out which is which. And me, I'm just really not interested in playing for the other team. So be well, and go your way as you see fit.

Age
Posts: 3287
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Age » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:10 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:34 am
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:06 am
I, unlike you, do NOT look at "sides".
For your own sake, it's probably time you did.
Why for "my own sake"?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:34 am
When you do, you'll see that there's been two types of people talking to you since you got to this site.
I SEE "people" with all different types and ways of relating.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:34 am
One makes fun of you, mimics you, dismisses you, and things it's fair game to provoke you.
Which I have CLEARLY SEEN, but is of absolutely NO concern to me.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:34 am
Another side tries to treat you fairly.
'fairly' is a very relative term.

What you decide is "fairly" "another" could see as the exact opposite and "unfair".

Once again, you like to SHOW "others" how you do "good", while it is "the others" who do "bad".
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:34 am
But so far, you haven't figured out which is which.
If you BELIEVE so, then is MUST BE True, correct?

Could it even at all possible within you that I might have far more insight to what is going on here than you ASSUME now?

Maybe I just do NOT care one iota how 'you', human beings 'try' to treat me, and thus do NOT focus, on how people 'try' to behave or misbehave in relation to ME.

What I much prefer to do is just expose HOW ALL of 'you', adult human beings, misbehave towards each "other".

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:34 am
And me, I'm just really not interested in playing for the other team. So be well, and go your way as you see fit.
Well that is one way to 'try to' deflect away from the issue, which was; the way you were judging the so called "other side" as the "bad ones", while you liked to portray that you are on the "side" of the "good and right ones".

Anyway, as long as I have exposed the WRONG that you were doing, which you OBVIOUSLY do NOT like to LOOK AT nor RECOGNIZE, then, there is NOT much else I can do.

If you only want to portray a sense of self-righteousness and of NEVER doing any wrong, then so be it. That is part of the "christian" way of teaching anyway, in the days of when this is written. So, you, being just another follower of that way, then you will obviously go along with that way of thinking only also.

Ignoring the actual Truth of things only allows you to fall deeper into the devilish deceptive and evil ways, which you are now heading down. The more "better" that you think you are than "others", then the MORE you are 'sinning', or MISSING THE MARK.

I am NOT here, in this forum, to be treated "fairly". I am just here to learn how to communicate in a way to be better UNDERSTOOD.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2683
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:58 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:53 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:54 am
A phobia is an irrational fear.

The fear of Islam's advocacy of evil and violent acts upon non-believers [as evident] is real fear, thus not a phobia.

The ideology of Islam is loaded with tons of evil and violent elements that exhort Muslims to war against and kill non-Muslims.
While the majority of Muslims do not adhere to the above commands of Allah, there is a pool of 20% of Muslims, i.e. 300 millions who are evil prone who would obey Allah's command to the letter.

These evil prone Muslims has committed terrible carnage of evil and violent acts upon non-Muslims in terms of >100++ millions since Islam first emerged 1400 years ago and had continued to the present as evident below;

Image

The above is a trend that will continue into the future if the root causes are not addressed.

With the above real carnage over 1400 years of Islam history to the present and potentially into the future, obviously the fear of the ideology of Islam is definitely real and RATIONAL.

Since the above fear is real and potentially real, the carnage and potential evil & violence must be critiqued rationally.

To insist the fear, thus critique of the ideology of Islam is irrational, thus islamophobic, is an insult to one's intelligence.

Can anyone prove me wrong on the above?
This type crap is easily explored: see this if you care to learn what this is all about.
Hint: You'll see and hear Daniel Dennett speak on the topic.
Why don't you provide your argument or a synopsis of the film?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests