ANEKANTAVADA

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dontaskme
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ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:28 am

"Each one of you is absolutely right." ~ Tagore


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ANEKANTAVADA: The Jain Version of Multiple World Views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKfB3fe ... dex=7&t=0s

In the ancient religion of Jainism, there is a beautiful concept of Anekantavada (literally, "non one sidedness") which allows for multiple points of view.



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surreptitious57
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:27 am

Dontaskme wrote:
In the ancient religion of Jainism there is a beautiful concept of Anekantavada which allows for multiple points of view
I very much agree with this because no one has a monopoly on truth so we can learn from others
We may possess different parts of it so should not automatically dismiss all other interpretations

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:29 am

I agree with ANEKANTAVADA but there more depth to it.

However I note DAM's view do not agree with ANEKANTAVADA.

To DAM, there is only one view, i.e. no self, no I, no me, no you, no whatever.
This is definitely a one-view approach.

If ANEKANTAVADA, then it should be multiple views, i.e.
  • View 1. there is self, I, me, you, and whatever.
    View 2. there is no self, no I, no me, no you, no whatever.
    View 3. ...
    View 7. ...
It is not only the 7 views, but each must be the Right View followed by Right Action.
On this Aristotle is relevant; [edited]
  • Anybody can have X-view - that is easy, but to be X
    with the right person and
    to the right degree and
    at the right time and
    for the right purpose, and
    in the right way
    - that is not within everybody's power and is not easy.
DAM's rigid one-track-view is obviously from a messed up 'in the head'.

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Dontaskme
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:07 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:27 am
Dontaskme wrote:
In the ancient religion of Jainism there is a beautiful concept of Anekantavada which allows for multiple points of view
I very much agree with this because no one has a monopoly on truth so we can learn from others
We may possess different parts of it so should not automatically dismiss all other interpretations
Thank you for your comments surreptitious57.
First let me just reiterate ( everyone is right and everyone's point of view is equally valid and true, because everyones story is every part of the whole story that CANNOT not be whole. IN the same context as how the holographic theory works) in the same context that a book is inseparable from the pages and chapters.
I've advocated this point many times that everyone knows the truth, and that it's what you are right here and now. You are TRUTH

So in essense: You are truth. - Truth is not some place to approach in the future, or lies somewhere in the past, neither is truth something to attain or to possess. You are truth right here and now as this immediate ever flowing impermanent IS-ness.
You cannot have the WHOLE truth because the nature of you is temporal, transient and always changing, the elements that constitute the world of things is a shapeshifter in constant flux EVER changing from one thing to another, where nothing stays the same, as nature never repeats exactly. So from this perspective there is no one single unified TRUTH because all truths are relative to the one being and expressing it, as the many interpretations of the ONE ..paradoxically it's all ONE TRUTH...appearing as the many.

So what is form? (interpretation is form) The word is the form of the formless. Without someone to label reality there is no reality.
Conceptualisation comes as and through the word of the formless appearing as form = in formation.

How the formless becomes form is part of interpretations which on their turn are part of form.
"formless appearing as form".

Interpretation of "isness" is in fact the dream (illusion).Every interpretation is limited and therefore longs for wholeness...That's what is also called: The cosmic play or drama.

_______

''It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature...'' Niels Bohr

''We must be clear that when it comes to atoms, language can be used only as in poetry. The poet, too, is not nearly so concerned with describing facts as with creating images and establishing mental connections.'' Niels Bohr

_______

Conclusion: No one knows what IS-ness IS, but descriptives tend to solve that problem.

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Walker
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Walker » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:30 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:29 am

It is not only the 7 views, but each must be the Right View followed by Right Action.
On this Aristotle is relevant; [edited]
  • Anybody can have X-view - that is easy, but to be X
    with the right person and
    to the right degree and
    at the right time and
    for the right purpose, and
    in the right way
    - that is not within everybody's power and is not easy.
That's brilliant. Without being X the void swallows any shouting or murmuring and in the extreme, without being X is a highway to the nervous hospital where eccentricity is less tolerated, something to be treated.

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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Walker » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:07 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:28 am
"Each one of you is absolutely right." ~ Tagore
From The Only Dance There Is:
”Ram Dass” wrote:My reading of his materials showed me that he was tuned in on some of the greatest truths in the world that have ever been enunciated by some of the highest beings. He was experiencing these directly, but he was caught in a feeling that this was happening only to him. In other words, he had taken an ego with him into this other state of consciousness and he was experiencing it as unique to himself.

And, therefore, he got into a messy predicament of saying, “I’ve been given this, and you haven’t,” you see. As we decided to share time and space, he noted that everything he said on this level I understood, and we could talk at this level together, although the psychiatrist sitting in the room was having a very difficult time dealing with this visitor who was obviously crazier than the patient, you know.

And my brother often said to me, “I don’t know,” he says, “I’m a lawyer, I’m a decent citizen, I’ve got a tie and a jacket, and I go to church, and I’m a good person, and I read the Bible. Me they’ve got in a mental hospital; you, you walk barefoot, you’ve got a beard, you’ve got a funny name, you really wear … you, you’re out, free. How do you explain that?” *

And I say, “Well, I’ll show you how.” I said, “Do you think you’re Christ? The Christ in pure consciousness?” he said, “Yes.”

I say, “Well, I think I am too.”

And he looks at me and he says, “No, you don’t understand.”

I say, “That’s why they lock you up,” you see. Because the minute you tell somebody else they’re not Christ, they lock you up. The minute you say, “I am and you’re not,” then you gotta go. It’s very clear. That’s the way the game is played.

As far as I’m concerned, we’re all God. Here we all are. Now I don’t go around forcing you to say “You are God, aren’t you?” Because you only come to somebody else when you are caught in an ego drama, when you are caught having to “do” something.

I said to him, “If you didn’t have to do anything to anybody else, nobody would put you away.”

The funny play … the reason they put him away, which was just so cosmically humorous, was that my father, a Republican, conservative, came into my brother’s apartment and found him sitting there naked, surrounded by five or six elderly ladies who were worshiping him. And he was sitting there burning his money and his credit cards. In a Jewish middle-class family you can do everything, but you don’t burn the money. I’ll tell you … so that anybody could see he was obviously crazy.

- Ram Dass
The Only Dance There Is
* At the time, Ram Dass was a psychiatrist visiting his brother.

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Dontaskme
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:56 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:29 am

DAM's rigid one-track-view is obviously from a messed up 'in the head'.
Views are born of knowledge, and knowledge is born of language, and language is born of sound, and sound is born of silence.

Therefore, knowledge informs the illusory nature of a messed up head.

Clinging to conceptual illusions and mistaking those for actual reality is certainly all this biological squishy slimey AI robot brain can do.

If you believe there's a you inside you..then just mind you don't tire yourself out too much while you are breathing manually. Or better still, just don't forget to breathe while you are trying to work out how the brain actually works. When you know that, then you can maybe talk to it saying things like..... come on brain, work, come on now...''

I really don't think the brain needs your input on any matter.

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:16 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:56 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:29 am

DAM's rigid one-track-view is obviously from a messed up 'in the head'.
Views are born of knowledge, and knowledge is born of language, and language is born of sound, and sound is born of silence.

Therefore, knowledge informs the illusory nature of a messed up head.

Clinging to conceptual illusions and mistaking those for actual reality is certainly all this biological squishy slimey AI robot brain can do.

If you believe there's a you inside you..then just mind you don't tire yourself out too much while you are breathing manually. Or better still, just don't forget to breathe while you are trying to work out how the brain actually works. When you know that, then you can maybe talk to it saying things like..... come on brain, work, come on now...''

I really don't think the brain needs your input on any matter.
Point here is you introduced the ANEKANTAVADA of Jainism without understanding the essence of its message.

If you believe there is no you or 'no you inside you', then that is a one-track view.

The essentials of the ANEKANTAVADA provide there are 7 views within the individual, two of which are;
  • 1. There is a 'you' in you.
    2. There is no 'you' in you.
    3. ...
    7. ...
To insist only "2. There is no 'you' in you" is not the basis of the ANEKANTAVADA.

In terms of form;
  • 1. There are forms
    2. There are no forms.
    3-7

    1. There is the formless
    2. There is no formless
    3-7

surreptitious57
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:29 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Truth is not some place to approach in the future or lies somewhere in the past neither is truth something to attain or to possess
You are truth right here and now as this immediate ever flowing impermanent IS ness
The absolute NOW is all that exists because the past is just a memory and the future has yet to happen
And because it is all that exists then it has to be the truth because truth is obviously that which is true

Truth in this particular context does not pertain to facts [ although this is one type of truth ] but to actual existence
In order words the spatial temporal reality and everything that occurs within that reality - within the absolute NOW
So truth is not just knowledge but experience and experience that is forever changing by being created all the time

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:56 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:29 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Truth is not some place to approach in the future or lies somewhere in the past neither is truth something to attain or to possess
You are truth right here and now as this immediate ever flowing impermanent IS ness
The absolute NOW is all that exists because the past is just a memory and the future has yet to happen
And because it is all that exists then it has to be the truth because truth is obviously that which is true

Truth in this particular context does not pertain to facts [ although this is one type of truth ] but to actual existence
In order words the spatial temporal reality and everything that occurs within that reality - within the absolute NOW
So truth is not just knowledge but experience and experience that is forever changing by being created all the time
The point with 'truth' is this;
'Being in accord' is always subjected and accorded with the subject, i.e. there is no way we can achieve something that is absolutely-absolute.
As I had argued in the other threads, we can only THINK of the absolutely-absolute but it can never be objectified as real.
If the absolute-absolute is reified as 'real', that is an illusion. Despite being an illusion, it can be useful, e.g. like a 'real' Santa to children.

If we are to be consistent with the essence of the ANEKANTAVADA, then we have;
  • View 1. There is truth +
    View 2. There is no truth +
    Views 3-7
Truth is what is accorded by the subject with fact, reality, or fidelity to an original or standard.
At the meta-level, this fact, reality, original or standard is also subject to the subject[s], i.e. there is no thing that is independent of the conditions of the subject.

Even your 'absolute NOW' that is also subjected to the subject[s]. There can be absolutes but there are no absolutely-absolutes, i.e. totally unconditional NOW or things. This is why the essence of the ANEKANTAVADA is represented by 7 views within each individual.

The default of the majority is having only one view, i.e. either 'there is' [p] or there is none' [not-p]
The philosophical progress is to hold two views at the same time, i.e.

1. p
2. not-p

then progress to 4 views and then 7 views all at the same time but obviously apply them specifically and optimally within the circumstances and constraints at hand.

Regardless of the above paradoxes;
.... Chop Wood Carry Water ........
.... Action without action ..........

surreptitious57
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:25 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
There can be absolutes but there are no absolutely absolutes
An absolutely absolute would be something that was entirely mind independent and incapable of any interpretation at all
Something that simply existed without its existence being known by anything or anyone
And as far as is known that was the actual state of the Universe for most of its life span

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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:38 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:25 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
There can be absolutes but there are no absolutely absolutes
An absolutely absolute would be something that was entirely mind independent and incapable of any interpretation at all
Something that simply existed without its existence being known by anything or anyone
And as far as is known that was the actual state of the Universe for most of its life span
If we refer to the ANEKANTAVADA, you still have to apply p and not-p at the same time to whatever that is or was, thus;
  • View 1. p = That was the actual state of the Universe for most of its life span
    View 2. Not-p
Point is whatever is posited [+ve] must be negated [-ve] at the same time.
Generally this will generate a cognitive dissonance.
The solution is to deal with and "tame" the cognitive dissonance within oneself, not trying to find answers.

Note Russells' no definite answers;
  • Thus, to sum up our discussion of the value of philosophy; Philosophy is to be studied, not for the sake of any definite answers to its questions since no definite answers can, as a rule, be known to be true, but rather ....

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Lacewing
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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Lacewing » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:31 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:07 am
everyone is right and everyone's point of view is equally valid and true
Well, first of all...
How can there be "right" without wrong?
And "valid" without invalid?
And "true" without false?

Secondly, isn't this essentially attempting to equally validate views that could be steeped in dishonesty and ignorance?

I agree that there are MANY VIEWS of truth -- but I don't think that equates to every view or person being one of TRUTH. There is much deception -- which can manifest through deceiving oneself and others for all kinds of reasons.

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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:53 am

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:31 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:07 am
everyone is right and everyone's point of view is equally valid and true
Well, first of all...
How can there be "right" without wrong?
And "valid" without invalid?
And "true" without false?

Secondly, isn't this essentially attempting to equally validate views that could be steeped in dishonesty and ignorance?

I agree that there are MANY VIEWS of truth -- but I don't think that equates to every view or person being one of TRUTH. There is much deception -- which can manifest through deceiving oneself and others for all kinds of reasons.
DAM is wrong because of loose-wires up there.

There are many views of reality, i.e. truths.
However not every view can be "right" in terms of its respective perspective.

In the common sense perspective, a diamond piece which is hard is different from a piece of pure charcoal which is soft. Thus to insist a piece of diamond is the SAME as a piece of charcoal within the common and ordinary sense [external qualities] perspective would be a false statement.

However, if we shift perspective in terms of atoms re the Periodic Table Chart, both the piece of diamond and piece of charcoal are the same carbon C.

If we shift to another perspective use an electron gun [needle], the diamond would be soft to be pierced just a the piece of charcoal.

Thus and P and Not-P can be the same at the same time but different in a specified perspective.
The ANEKANTAVADA provide reconciliation of different views on the above basis but one must differentiate the perspective involved.

DAM is messed up because she is stuck in ONE perspective only.

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Re: ANEKANTAVADA

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:11 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:16 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:56 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:29 am

DAM's rigid one-track-view is obviously from a messed up 'in the head'.
Views are born of knowledge, and knowledge is born of language, and language is born of sound, and sound is born of silence.

Therefore, knowledge informs the illusory nature of a messed up head.

Clinging to conceptual illusions and mistaking those for actual reality is certainly all this biological squishy slimey AI robot brain can do.

If you believe there's a you inside you..then just mind you don't tire yourself out too much while you are breathing manually. Or better still, just don't forget to breathe while you are trying to work out how the brain actually works. When you know that, then you can maybe talk to it saying things like..... come on brain, work, come on now...''

I really don't think the brain needs your input on any matter.
Point here is you introduced the ANEKANTAVADA of Jainism without understanding the essence of its message.

If you believe there is no you or 'no you inside you', then that is a one-track view.

The essentials of the ANEKANTAVADA provide there are 7 views within the individual, two of which are;
  • 1. There is a 'you' in you.
    2. There is no 'you' in you.
    3. ...
    7. ...
To insist only "2. There is no 'you' in you" is not the basis of the ANEKANTAVADA.

In terms of form;
  • 1. There are forms
    2. There are no forms.
    3-7

    1. There is the formless
    2. There is no formless
    3-7
I already know all that which you are showing me. Just because I don't deliver my views and present them in such a way that meets with your approval doesn't mean I don't understand them.

You don't have any idea what I understand regarding the essence of it's message.

The reason I posted this thread is because I understand it completely.





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