God, Satan, Adam and Eve, and origin of evil

[Immanuel Can]

But who really cares what some thing actually says? What actually matters is what does 'it' actually mean, which makes sense and fits in with EVERY thing else logically and sensibly?

The question is about "God, Satan, Adam and Eve." Those are Biblical figures. So it what it actually says is of primary relevance, and what it means has to be interpreted from the substance of what it says.

Obviously, one way of learning in life is to learn by your so called "mistakes".

But mistakes are distinct from wrongdoing. Wrongdoing is deliberate and (to the present question) "evil." Mistakes are mere errors.

Some one was asking if the so called 'evil nature' within human beings was good or evil?

Yes. But I observed that the concept of a "created evil nature" was not consonant with the Biblical account of evil, so the question wasn't well-formed.

Can there be heaven with creatures continually choosing to do wrong and minimizing and justifying this behavior?

The answer is also a No.

Agreed.

But can heaven be created here on earth when a Truly FREE creature CHOOSES to STOP doing wrong, and CHOOSES to change, for the better?

Then the answer is a resounding YES.

The problem with that theory is that in every case where "Heaven on Earth" has been tried (or "Utopia," or "The Ideal State," or whatever you wish to call it) it's not only been a failure, but a massively homicidal failure as well.

And it was NOT my purpose at all for 'you', "immanuel can", to think this was directed at you.

Ah. You should perhaps use a separate message, just to save the confusion.

My apologies as what I wrote was obviously NOT clear at all who it was directed at.

Quite alright. No problem.

[Age]

But who really cares what some thing actually says? What actually matters is what does 'it' actually mean, which makes sense and fits in with EVERY thing else logically and sensibly?

The question is about "God, Satan, Adam and Eve." Those are Biblical figures. So it what it actually says is of primary relevance, and what it means has to be interpreted from the substance of what it says.

Obviously.

Obviously, one way of learning in life is to learn by your so called "mistakes".

But mistakes are distinct from wrongdoing. Wrongdoing is deliberate and (to the present question) "evil." Mistakes are mere errors.

Once again another perfect example is provided of how a human being 'tries to' "minimize" and "justify" their own WRONG behaviors.

Remember what is meant is interpreted from the words used.

The word 'mistakes' can be used to blame and/or replace one's real deliberate and intentional WRONG doing, which ALL adult human beings do do.

Human beings have used this method of blame for their wrong doing for thousands upon thousands of years. It has become just such a habit that they do it without even knowing that they are doing it.

Some one was asking if the so called 'evil nature' within human beings was good or evil?

Yes. But I observed that the concept of a "created evil nature" was not consonant with the Biblical account of evil, so the question wasn't well-formed.

And I observed how it can fit in perfectly with religious AND scientific accounts to form a PERFECT picture of ALL-THERE-IS.

But I do OBSERVE, SEE, NOTICE things very different from how 'you' do.

Can there be heaven with creatures continually choosing to do wrong and minimizing and justifying this behavior?

The answer is also a No.

Agreed.

But can heaven be created here on earth when a Truly FREE creature CHOOSES to STOP doing wrong, and CHOOSES to change, for the better?

Then the answer is a resounding YES.

The problem with that theory is that in every case where "Heaven on Earth" has been tried (or "Utopia," or "The Ideal State," or whatever you wish to call it) it's not only been a failure, but a massively homicidal failure as well.

But they were NEVER 'heaven on earth'. They were just what SOME people thought was 'heaven'.

Also, there has NEVER been an adult human being who has NOT done WRONG, and while 'you', adults, keep doing WRONG there will NEVER be a 'heaven on earth'. It really is that SIMPLE.

If you literally believe that the personal 'you' goes somewhere after that body stops breathing and pumping blood, then 'you' have some explaining to do. Firstly, what do you believe the word 'heaven' actually means and is referring to?

We can then move on from there if you so wish to?

And it was NOT my purpose at all for 'you', "immanuel can", to think this was directed at you.

Ah. You should perhaps use a separate message, just to save the confusion.

My apologies as what I wrote was obviously NOT clear at all who it was directed at.

Quite alright. No problem.

[Immanuel Can]

But who really cares what some thing actually says? What actually matters is what does 'it' actually mean, which makes sense and fits in with EVERY thing else logically and sensibly?

The question is about "God, Satan, Adam and Eve." Those are Biblical figures. So it what it actually says is of primary relevance, and what it means has to be interpreted from the substance of what it says.

Obviously.

Obviously, one way of learning in life is to learn by your so called "mistakes".

But mistakes are distinct from wrongdoing. Wrongdoing is deliberate and (to the present question) "evil." Mistakes are mere errors.

Once again another perfect example is provided of how a human being 'tries to' "minimize" and "justify" their own WRONG behaviors.

Not at all. If you fall down the stairs, you made a "mistake." But you didn't "sin." You weren't "evil." You were just guilty of putting your foot in the wrong place, because you didn't know better.

This is an important distinction. Even in court, "having a motive" goes to the question of guilt. If there was no intention or desire to commit the act, neither was their guilt. It was an "accident," a "mistake," not a concealed crime.

Remember what is meant is interpreted from the words used.

Not true at all. What is "meant" is "meant" by the speaker of the words. What is "interpreted" may be right or wrong. If (s)he "interpreted" what the speaker "meant," then the interpreter got it right. If (s)he interpreted wrongly, she didn't know what the speaker "meant." You've got it precisely backwards there.

The word 'mistakes' can be used to blame and/or replace one's real deliberate and intentional WRONG doing, which ALL adult human beings do do.

Only if the action wasn't actually a mistake. But if it was, it's a legit excuse.

But can heaven be created here on earth when a Truly FREE creature CHOOSES to STOP doing wrong, and CHOOSES to change, for the better?

Then the answer is a resounding YES.

The problem with that theory is that in every case where "Heaven on Earth" has been tried (or "Utopia," or "The Ideal State," or whatever you wish to call it) it's not only been a failure, but a massively homicidal failure as well.

But they were NEVER 'heaven on earth'. They were just what SOME people thought was 'heaven'.

Yes, that's the problem. But we ought to ask why every single attempt at it so far has failed so utterly disastrously, lest our latest "hope" of such prove likewise homicidal. Every one of these "utopias" were thought by their proponents to be "the right one," or "better than the former attempts." So feeling that now is a guarantee of nothing save our own lack of a sense of history and of self-awareness.

For as you say below, there has been no "Heaven on Earth."

Also, there has NEVER been an adult human being who has NOT done WRONG, and while 'you', adults, keep doing WRONG there will NEVER be a 'heaven on earth'. It really is that SIMPLE.

"You, adults"?

How old are you? Honest question. I have to ask, since you raised it.

[bahman]

I mean God created our nature which is partly evil. Is the act of creation of such nature good or evil?

Well, Biblically, mankind was not created "partly evil." Genesis makes that abundantly clear. It says, "And God saw that it was good," not "God saw it was good and evil."

My argument is based on the sin of pride that Satan committed. Satan must have an evil nature in order to feel pride.

But it seems human beings were also created as genuine individuals and persons, with moral freedom. And this means that they had the power to choose good, or to reject good. The rejection of the good is what is known as "evil."

So "evil" is not itself a creation: it's the negation, the shadow, the absence of good, the rejection of good, the departure from good, the twisting away from good. It isn't a thing-in-itself, but the negative of a thing-in-itself. It's not-life, not-light, not-truth, not-health, and not-good. But it's not a thing with its own independent existence: it's derivative of the absence or rejection of something truly good.

I disagree that evil is absence of good but that is off-topic.

For the second question, you need to understand the first statement until "so". After "so" there is a question related to the statement before "so".

Well, you wrote: " It is for sure that an agent with free will eventually commit evil if s/he has an evil nature so was the act of creating a free agent with evil nature is good/evil?"

That's not grammatically clear. But it also seems to assume "evil nature" was "created," rather than evil being a product of rejection of the Good by agents with free will.

This is the opposite of what Genesis says was the case, so the question (if I can understand it at all) would be premised on an error.

Satan fell pride. Where did the pride come from?

[bahman]

You seem to be sure that you have not been able to fit them in with the truth, so how about you provide any amount of examples as you like and let us see if we can fit them in with the actual and real truth or not.

For example, Big Bang (creation was not in seven days),

That relatively "sized" bang, which happened a relatively few years ago has NOTHING really to do with Creation at all.

Creation was not in, with, or at the so called "big bang" at all.

That "bang" happened within Creation.

What?

evolution (our ancestors are not Adam and Eve),

Was there ever a point in evolution where a purely not knowing the difference between right and wrong animal evolved into a more thinking and knowing animal?

Are you aware that the story of adam and eve is just a story about evolution, which explains when an animal evolved into and became the what is now known as the 'human animal'?

Or, have you got some other concept of what that story is about?

Why do you have 'your story', where did 'your' story come from? Remember we could be reading the exact same words?

To me, the story of adam and eve is a story about and explanation of how evolution, itself, works.

You are no serious. The story of Adam and Eve is about creation rather than evolution.

The story of the flood (you cannot possibly have room for all pair of each species in a boat), etc.

This story is just about rescuing ALL things before they are flooded/suffocated/killed/destroyed to the point of extinction.

To save and help any species of any thing to keep existing, BEFORE they brought to the point of extinction, then at least two are needed, that is; the male and the female of any species.

Maybe you are seeing these things as not just a story about some thing possible, and that is the reason you can not fit in them with the 'truth'?

Or, maybe what you see as 'truth' is really NOT truth at all, and that is some thing which is NOT possible.

But we will NEVER know until you OPEN up fully and explain what the 'truth' IS, and why you can NOT fit these stories in with.

Ah I know, maybe you view these stories as literally happening in truth.

By the way, in case you still have NOT got it; I LOOK AT and SEE things very, very different from 'you' do.

The stories I see, look at, and read in ALL religious (and scientific) texts ALL fit in perfectly with the actual Truth of things.

There are 8.7 million species! They need food, shelter,...

[Immanuel Can]

My argument is based on the sin of pride that Satan committed. Satan must have an evil nature in order to feel pride.

The famous poet, John Milton, author of the great epic poem,Paradise Lost, described free will this way:

"I made him just and right,
Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
Such I created all th' Ethereal Powers
And Spirits, both them who stood and them who faild;
Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell."

That line is an interesting one. It means that one doesn't have to have an intrinsically evil nature in order to choose evil; one only has to have a radically free nature, meaning one unconstrained, and not forcibly kept from making that choice.

Milton's suggestion, I think is a good one: for a person to be "free," it entails that (at least for some time) he/she has the option (though not any compulsion) to choose one thing or the other. But if the "one thing" in view is harmonious existence with an intrinsically good God, the source and prototype of all "goodness," then what is the "other thing" one could choose that's contrary to that? That must be "evil."

But notice also that first line: "I made him just and right." Part of making mankind all they could be means including in them this freedom of the will. So the Creator is not implicated in the origin of evil...only of freedom, which we consider a great good for us all.

[bahman]

So what?

You believe in things, which are also obviously false and not true.

Me? Maybe. But I am trying my best to not believe in on something which is obviously false.

Do you know of any one that is not 'trying' their best to believe in/on some thing which is obviously false?

Yes, I know.

In fact do you know of ANY one believes in/on any thing, which is obviously false, to them?

Yes, I know.

This is the biggest issue and trouble human beings have with BELIEFS. They obviously would NOT believe some thing, which is obviously false, to them, AND, they would ONLY believe some thing, which is obviously true, to them. But what is obviously FALSE to one, is NOT to "another", and vice-versa, what is obviously TRUE to one, is NOT to "another". But which ONE is Right?

What I think is right.

By the way, can you please give an example of what you think that I believe which is obviously wrong?

Sure, provide me with a list of the things that you believe, then I will provide you with examples of the ones, which are obviously wrong, to me.

By the way, thank you for wanting to obtain some clarity on what it is that I am saying.

1) We are minds, 2) we interact through physical,... I think these two are obvious enough.

And, how do you KNOW this?

Through my personal experiences.

Through your experiences is God very powerful also?

Or, through ALL of your experiences, is it just satan who is very powerful?

They are both powerful.

By the way, what is this 'satan' thing exactly?

The master of all Devils.

Could you pinpoint it down just a little bit more, so that 'we', who have NOT lived your life experiences, are able to grasp some kind of understanding at least?

What about who or what are ALL the 'devils'?

Devils are spiritual beings who do evil.

Maybe not, but there IS a very rational answer.

For example?

To understand the answer you would first have to KNOW what all the words in the answer actually mean and how they are defined, and from the examples, meanings, and/or definitions that you have provided so far, then you will probably not yet be able to understand the answer fully. But I will provide my view anyway:

To me, 'satan', is just the wrong thinking, within each human being. If as you say, 'satan' is the "master of the devils", then 'satan' would be BELIEFS, themselves. While 'devils' would just be the wrong thinking. Beliefs, after all, do have control over the thinking, which is usually wrong anyway.

So, the purpose of God, in the spiritual sense, (which is just the KNOWING of right and wrong, in this context) in allowing satan to exist is so eventually human beings will learn from their own mistakes.

ALL human beings learn BEST from, and through, their own personal experiences, and NOT from being told. God is telling ALL 'you', human beings, what is right and wrong ALL the time anyway, from within. But, seriously, how many people really listen to their OWN inner KNOWING of what is ACTUALLY right and wrong and do that, instead of listening to their OWN individual instantly gratifying thinking? This is part of the story of adam and eve. The snake is just a forked tongue, slithering, low-(to the ground)life animal. A slithering (sneaky), forked tongue (split the truth) internal speaking one, telling 'you', human beings (eve first) to do what is KNOWN to be WRONG.

How God, in the physical sense, (the Universe Itself) actually allowed satan to exist is just how creation through evolution produces or Creates ALL things. Eventually an intelligent enough species would come to exist. That species was eventually named human beings who have, within them, a thinking, which is made up of good AND bad thoughts, and a KNOWING, which is ONLY of Good, True, Right, and Correct knowledge.

The bad, wrong, or 'evil' thinking, which has come to exist within ALL adult human beings is what could be called the devils. With many devils, or the many wrong thinking/thoughts within one adult human being or many devils being ALL adult human beings ALL with their own wrong thinking/thoughts.

These devils/wrong thinking are controlled by the master 'satan', which is just the BELIEFS within the BELIEF-system. (and like most "systems", they seem to have control over human beings instead of the other way around. Have you ever phoned a government department to complain about some thing to only be told that that is how the "system" works? I think this human being forget that it is 'you', human beings, who CREATED the "system", and NOT the other way around). But I digress. Now, eve ate what she did because within her was a BELIEF that it was okay to do so, and in doing so she would gain the knowledge of good and evil/wrong. She ALREADY KNEW it was wrong. The inner KNOWING of right and wrong is God, in the spiritual sense, but she listened to the wrong thinking/thoughts instead. And as can be witnessed and evidenced since "then", human beings have not really changed that much at all. adam, being a typical, tried to' blame some thing else, for what was inertly KNOWN to be wrong all along. Just like people blame the "system" for some thing "else", which obviously human beings, themselves, do, adam blamed eve and eve blamed some thing other than herself. She blamed the BELIEF-"system" within.

Now, back to the question that was asked;
What was God's purpose in allowing Satan to exist?

Which instead of you just saying, "I do not know", you answered:
Christian doesn't have a rational answer for this.

To which I replied:
Maybe not, but there IS a very rational answer.

God's purpose in allowing satan to exist IS because when 'you', human beings' accept AND take FULL responsibility for your OWN wrong doings, THEN you will understand FULLY that the purpose 'you' are absolutely FREE to choose to do whatever you want is so that you could and would LEARN what is Truly Right and Wrong from your OWN wrong doings, so THEN the Good in 'you' ALL will wipe out the wrong/evil thinking with you ALL once and for ALL forever more, so that then the following generations of human beings can and will living in peace and harmony forever more.

When 'you', human beings, when this is written, STOP thinking that LIfe revolves around 'you', and START thinking about YOUR children, who are REALLY what IS Truly IMPORTANT, then you can START Creating the Life that you Truly WANT for yourselves, you and YOUR children.

It appears to me that you do not have enough spiritual experience as you speak of Satan as wrong thinking. Satan is a being like me and you but much more powerful.

And so 'satan' IS.

By the way, like God, satan is NOT a "he".

Satan is male according to my personal experience.

Okay, that is fair enough.

And what would make more sense is IF you had had PERFECT past experiences, then you would have PERFECT knowledge of RIGHT and WRONG. Unfortunately you have had neither, so instead of 'trying to' LOOK AT and SEE 'Life' through YOU perspective ONLY, what would be so wrong in just LOOKING AT things, from "another" perspective, and SEEING what can be found and discovered there?

I am open to other points of view.

[bahman]

Hang on, you stated that the Bible IS the word of God!

I didn't mean that I believe that the Bible is the word of God. I meant that people believe that the Bible is the word of God.

But what do you believe?

It does NOT matter what "other" people believe.

Most of those beliefs will be just flat out obviously WRONG anyway.

I think that we are evolving interacting minds.

So NOT the direct word of God?

I have no idea. I am not a believer. Whether the Bible is corrupted or not is the subject of another thread.

But ANY discussion relating to the bible would be better if whether the bible is corrupted or not was discussed also.

Until that is discussed, then talking about what is in the bible would be a complete waste of time.

This thread is about the origin of evil given the fact that the story within the Bible is literal and correct.

I am a Christian only by way of believing in what Christ did and perhaps to a degree - what he is purported to have said. (because a sage told me)

Sage?

I know from the sage, that key words pertaining to life were convoluted into their present form by God.

The interesting thing about the word Bible - is that it is a homophone to Buy Bull. Not only do we get bullshit, we pay for it.

Why did God make this title a homophone to buy bull? Because 'He' 'It' wants us NOT TO JUST ACCEPT IT - BUT QUESTION IT.

It wants us to be intelligent - unlike sheep.

So God lied to us in order to make sure that we become intelligent by asking questions?

No, God used words that only the Truly intelligent would SEE and recognize. When that time comes about is of NO importance at all.

When human beings got past their dishonest stage, started becoming more Honest and thus more OPEN also, then would start becoming intelligent enough to SEE and recognize what was actually there in front of them ALL THE TIME anyway.

Why only truly intelligent people?

My only experience of this is God doing it - he doesn't need a 'satan' when 'he' is such a c@nt.

Maybe, that is God who does things to me too. Maybe, that is Satan who does things to you too. We will never know.

But it is ALL ALREADY KNOWN.

It is not. Spiritual reality is very confusing when you notice that everyone there can put thoughts into your mind.

Well, it certainly would be rather pathetic for 'God' to give a shit about humans, but create such an adversary.

God's purpose is deciding who gets to reincarnate as what within the confines of entropy - are you man or beast?

I cannot follow you here well. So God created this mess in order to decide about who gets to reincarnate?

God createS through evolution ALWAYS, and through that came an animal with intelligence, IF that animal chooses to make "a mess", then so be it.

The ANSWERS to a living a Truly peaceful life are HERE to SEE, but IF human beings choose to otherwise, LOOK AT and SEE things differently, then so be it.

God is NOT going to force any one to do any thing that they do NOT want to do anyway.

Even if the human species wipes themselves out, the Universe is infinite so along, through evolution, will come "another intelligent" species, and if they 'play their cards right', then they get to stay in the game, and enjoy ALL the benefits of what is MEANS to be alive and existing.

Growing through evolution is a mess. We have to eat each other, kill each other,... to make sure that we have a secure life.

No, apparently (according the the buy bull - for simpletons) it is our big time loving God that sends us to Hell - it is just Satan that rolls out the red carpet.

So Jesus was a lier?

That all depends on how one LOOKS AT, HEARS, and what they SEE in words.

You can either be sent to "hell in a hand basket" by continually doing the wrong that you are doing here ON EARTH, OR, you can go to heaven by just changing for the better. Again, hell or heaven is HOW 'we', human beings, make life for ourselves.

When human beings STOP thinking about and misinterpreting the 'after life' as though it is some thing about some STUPID place that after they themselves die, then that is where they go, THEN they could START LOOKING AT what the actual Truth of things is instead.

So, you don't believe in spiritual reality?

[bahman]

Everything keys on the concept "free will." Materialists and other kinds of Determinists, such as Calvinists, say there's no such thing as a creature free to choose. Voluntarists and libertarians of various kinds say there is such a thing.

If the Determinists were right, then evil would either a) have to come from the Creator, or b) have to be a feature inherent in and ineradicable from material causes. (The first answer would fit the Calvinists, and the second the Materialists and other Causal Determinists of all types.)

If the Voluntarists and libertarian types are right, then evil is defined as a free will decision to depart from harmony with the Creator, and thus it originates with the choosing agent.

Take your pick, then.

There are two questions here: 1) Is creating evil nature is good/evil?

Absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer. So, if you see there is an 'evil nature', then so be it, AND, If creating a so called "evil nature" is good OR evil, then that is solely depended upon YOU.

But, remember, you HAVE TO BE able to define the words you are using, otherwise this is ALL just a complete waste of time.

and 2) It is for sure that an agent with free will eventually commit evil if s/he has an evil nature so was the act of creating a free agent with evil nature is good/evil?

Again, IF you are unwilling to define the words you use, then that is WHY you are unable to answer these questions, and so you ask "others" to answer them for you.

But you do this with an underlying BELIEF and ASSUMPTION ALREADY anyway, so, your ulterior motive here is being DRIVEN by the very things you are putting up for question. You are NOT going to achieve what it is that you would love to achieve.

What word would you like that I define?

[bahman]

The two questions aren't in Standard English. The problems are as follows: "Is...is.." in the first one, and the second being worded as a statement, but with a question mark at the end.

I don't want to "read into" what you're trying to ask, so could you please reword so as to make your meaning clear? Thanks.

Ok. I already correct the first question. I mean God created our nature which is partly evil.

But this is what you BELIEVE and NOT actually true at all.

I am just asking a question. As I stated this thread is about the origin of evil given the fact that the story within the Bible is literal.

You keep saying; God created this, God created that. But you do NOT even believe there is such a thing as God, so WHY say such idiotic things as this?

I am challenging people's beliefs.

Also, human beings ARE Created. Full stop.

How do you know? Have you been there?

Now define what the 'nature' of being human IS EXACTLY?

Nature: Inherent or basic features of something. Our nature is partly good and partly evil. I have already given you an instance of good and evil so I hope that you know what I mean.

Then we will SEE if human beings are created with a nature that is partly 'evil'?

We kill each other. That is evil.

And, remember, just because you say some thing, that, in itself, does NOT make it true, right, and/or correct.

Ok. But remember that the same applies to you.

Is the act of creation of such nature good or evil?

What an idiotic question; Is the creation of evil nature good or evil?

It is a very relevant question.

Break down the question by defining the actual words you use in the question.

Creation is an act of bringing something to existence from nothing.

Also, how long are you going to persist in 'trying to' formulate some "argument", which you think/believe will convince ALL human beings forever more to STOP believing what you BELIEVE is True, that is; God does NOT exist?

My argument is very simple and valid in its current form.

[bahman]

Hang on, you stated that the Bible IS the word of God!

I didn't mean that I believe that the Bible is the word of God. I meant that people believe that the Bible is the word of God.

Owe.

So NOT the direct word of God?

I have no idea. I am not a believer. Whether the Bible is corrupted or not is the subject of another thread.

But you believe in Satan, and that 'he' is manipulating your mind?

Yes. That is because of my personal experience. Here we are discussing the origin of evil.

I am a Christian only by way of believing in what Christ did and perhaps to a degree - what he is purported to have said. (because a sage told me)

Sage?

Yes, some chap that introduced himself to me from the aether back in 2005.

Ok. You mean something or someone?

I know from the sage, that key words pertaining to life were convoluted into their present form by God.

The interesting thing about the word Bible - is that it is a homophone to Buy Bull. Not only do we get bullshit, we pay for it.

Why did God make this title a homophone to buy bull? Because 'He' 'It' wants us NOT TO JUST ACCEPT IT - BUT QUESTION IT.

It wants us to be intelligent - unlike sheep.

So God lied to us in order to make sure that we become intelligent by asking questions?

No, well probably not, but who gives a shit. He\'IT' probably wants us to real eyes that the buy bull is not literally from 'him'...thus it is full of bull.

So the Bible is not words of God?

My only experience of this is God doing it - he doesn't need a 'satan' when 'he' is such a c@nt.

Maybe, that is God who does things to me too. Maybe, that is Satan who does things to you too. We will never know.

Ya, wasn't hard for me to work it out, but good luck with that satan fella.

Ok.

Well, it certainly would be rather pathetic for 'God' to give a shit about humans, but create such an adversary.

God's purpose is deciding who gets to reincarnate as what within the confines of entropy - are you man or beast?

I cannot follow you here well. So God created this mess in order to decide about who gets to reincarnate?

Well, it created our reality, man has made the mess, and has to deal with the progression of entropy.

But how could we possibly create a mess if our nature were created good?

No, apparently (according the the buy bull - for simpletons) it is our big time loving God that sends us to Hell - it is just Satan that rolls out the red carpet.

So Jesus was a lier?

I think you mean liar. Where did Jesus state that it was satan that makes the final judgement?

Nah, it's the God system - deciding whether you have the right to reincarnate as wo\man or the energy of wo\man - as in the beast 666.
The reason the 'beast' was given a number, was because that bright spark - 'God' knew that we would ALL be eventually identified by numbers. As in - phone numbers, account numbers, registration numbers etc...

Yes - it gets to label us as the beast ready to reincarnate as, rather easily. Men Knew. Menu - didn't want to put you off your dinner..

My mobile after they had me bashed around the time the sage introduced himself - 007666 (in the middle of my mob no) - 007 I have I license to kill - so watch out.

Who is this beast? Who do you want to kill? I cannot follow you here.

[bahman]

My argument is based on the sin of pride that Satan committed. Satan must have an evil nature in order to feel pride.

The famous poet, John Milton, author of the great epic poem,Paradise Lost, described free will this way:

"I made him just and right,
Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
Such I created all th' Ethereal Powers
And Spirits, both them who stood and them who faild;
Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell."

That line is an interesting one. It means that one doesn't have to have an intrinsically evil nature in order to choose evil;

You are missing my point. I am not talking about choosing evil but feeling evil. One needs to have an evil nature to feel evil, pride for example.

[Immanuel Can]

You are missing my point. I am not talking about choosing evil but feeling evil. One needs to have an evil nature to feel evil, pride for example.

I don't think so.

In the Biblical account, once makes the bad choice, one's nature changes as a result -- from "free" to "capable of evil." That's what's implied by that phrase, "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Prior to that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of the possibility of evil at all -- only of the good. But afterward, their natures became such that they did.

Was that the case with Satan? The simple and true answer is this: nobody knows. We're not told.

[bahman]

You are missing my point. I am not talking about choosing evil but feeling evil. One needs to have an evil nature to feel evil, pride for example.

I don't think so.

In the Biblical account, once makes the bad choice, one's nature changes as a result -- from "free" to "capable of evil." That's what's implied by that phrase, "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Prior to that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of the possibility of evil at all -- only of the good. But afterward, their natures became such that they did.

Was that the case with Satan? The simple and true answer is this: nobody knows. We're not told.

You might like to read this.

[Age]

The question is about "God, Satan, Adam and Eve." Those are Biblical figures. So it what it actually says is of primary relevance, and what it means has to be interpreted from the substance of what it says.

Obviously.

But mistakes are distinct from wrongdoing. Wrongdoing is deliberate and (to the present question) "evil." Mistakes are mere errors.

Once again another perfect example is provided of how a human being 'tries to' "minimize" and "justify" their own WRONG behaviors.

Not at all.

Do you do 'evil' things?

Your honest answer would be much appreciated.

If you fall down the stairs, you made a "mistake."

Agreed.

But you didn't "sin." You weren't "evil."

What does 'sin' mean to you?

And how often are 'sinning', and how often are you 'evil', compared to how often you just make "mistakes"?

You were just guilty of putting your foot in the wrong place, because you didn't know better.

What do you mean by 'didn't know better'?

Is this the first time walking down stairs?

If no, then surely you would 'know better'.

Saying things like, "I didn't know better", just sounds like an "excuse", a "minimization", and/or a "justification" for what you really did 'know better'.

Adult human beings really do have this very strong tendency and habit of 'trying to' blame some thing else for what is really their fault alone.

This is an important distinction. Even in court, "having a motive" goes to the question of guilt. If there was no intention or desire to commit the act, neither was their guilt. It was an "accident," a "mistake," not a concealed crime.

True, but then those human made up courts and rules will still put the blame on you and can punish you for very long sentences for the "accident" or "mistake". This brings about a new point and question; Why do 'you', human beings, sometimes punish each other if it was just an 'accident' or 'mistake'?

Remember what is meant is interpreted from the words used.

Not true at all. What is "meant" is "meant" by the speaker of the words. What is "interpreted" may be right or wrong.

Although there is truth in this, there is also truth in the speaker/writer has an 'interpretation' of what words mean, which is what I was clumsily writing, and meant to mean, myself.

ALL of the words being used, both by the writer/reader AND the speaker/listener, are being 'interpreted' by ALL of these people. Even what the speaker/writer is 'meaning' is 'interpreted' from the words used.

Does this clear it up somewhat better?

If (s)he "interpreted" what the speaker "meant," then the interpreter got it right. If (s)he interpreted wrongly, she didn't know what the speaker "meant."

Agreed.

And just to be VERY, VERY CLEAR the listener will NEVER know if they have 'got it right' or if they 'did not know what the speaker 'MEANT' ' if they NEVER clarify with the speaker FIRST.

You've got it precisely backwards there.

Are you absolutely sure of this?

Or is it possible that you just 'misinterpreted' what I, the writer, 'meant'?

The word 'mistakes' can be used to blame and/or replace one's real deliberate and intentional WRONG doing, which ALL adult human beings do do.

Only if the action wasn't actually a mistake. But if it was, it's a legit excuse.

And that is WHY I used the 'can' word.

But they were NEVER 'heaven on earth'. They were just what SOME people thought was 'heaven'.

Yes, that's the problem. But we ought to ask why every single attempt at it so far has failed so utterly disastrously, lest our latest "hope" of such prove likewise homicidal.

Why not just LOOK AT the Truth of things instead? If you do, then what is SEEN is that 'heaven' will NEVER work when only SOME are in agreement. This, also, is the very reason WHY 'heaven' has not yet come into fruition.

Every one of these "utopias" were thought by their proponents to be "the right one," or "better than the former attempts."

The same as like you think 'your ways', (the christian way), is 'the right way' or the 'better than other attempts/way'. So, nothing really changed here.

As I have said, only when 'you', adult human beings, seriously want to change, for the better, then things can really change. Thinking 'your way' is better than other ways has NEVER worked.

So feeling that now is a guarantee of nothing save our own lack of a sense of history and of self-awareness.

I do not understand this.

For as you say below, there has been no "Heaven on Earth."

Also, there has NEVER been an adult human being who has NOT done WRONG, and while 'you', adults, keep doing WRONG there will NEVER be a 'heaven on earth'. It really is that SIMPLE.

"You, adults"?

How old are you? Honest question. I have to ask, since you raised it.

I raised 'it' knowing you would ASSUME some thing, which you obviously have, and then I can point out that it is better to NEVER assume any thing. Although I thank you for asking a clarifying question your question is based on an ASSUMPTION, so I will leave it alone as I have also raised, 'you', human beings, as well.