Can good God do evil?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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-1-
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by -1- » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:50 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:57 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:47 pm

Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Where does it mention the "creation" of the concept "good"? That's the important feature.

The idea of a created "evil" is easy -- anything that is "not good" fits the bill. But where is the mention of the creation of "good" itself, rather than it being an intrinsic property of the Creator?
What do you mean? I said that in Bible God declared that he is the creator of good and evil and gave you the reference.
Emmanuel needs to hear where god creates good as well, as well as needed to hear god created evil.

He is kinda stupid, you know. He reads the bible, and believes in it, and yet has no clue what's in the bible.

"God created the sun and the moon and the stars; and He saw that it was good." There you go, poor bastard retarded ImmanuelCan was unable to remember this on his own.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:51 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:23 am
Eternally - there is no amount of intimidation that could convince me to be you.
Not intimidation. I know you have no belief in God. But I do. And if you don't have any sense of self-preservation, I can't fix that.

However, it would be wrong of me to make myself the occasion by which you harm yourself. So I will speak to you no more.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:56 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:50 pm
"God created the sun and the moon and the stars; and He saw that it was good."
*sigh*

So -1- doesn't know what an adjective is.

Okay. "God created...and SAW that it WAS good." In other words, the adjective "good" already had an objective referent. (If it did not, then God could not have been saying anything by calling the creation "good.")

"Good" as an adjective, logically requires the pre-existence of the objective Good. So the capital G - "Good" is not being created there. It already exists as a conceptual reality, prior to the Creation.

Sorry. You're not right.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Skepdick » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:48 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:51 pm
Not intimidation. I know you have no belief in God. But I do.
That's an outright lie. Surely you recognize from my words that I assign non-zero probability to your God's existence?

You confuse my absence of reverence for absence of belief.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:51 pm
And if you don't have any sense of self-preservation, I can't fix that.
Q.E.D why would I need a sense of self-preservation from an "all-loving God"?

Also - I get eternal life either way, right? As far as 'self-preservation' goes - there is really no wrong answer here.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:51 pm
However, it would be wrong of me to make myself the occasion by which you harm yourself. So I will speak to you no more.
Harm myself? I have no such intention. Are you meaning to say that your God may harm me because I criticise him? That's possible.

Deep down, I think you know what I know ;) That your God is a bit of a capricious sadist.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:15 pm

Age wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:03 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:48 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:03 pm
Does good God have the ability to do evil? The answer is just simply no.
How do you know?
The word 'good' in relation to any thing means that whatever the thing is, it IS good. Good things do not do evil things.

If you wrote does God have the ability..., then the answer could be different.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:48 pm
Do you have any reason?
The same reason as above.
Yes, good things normally do not do evil but they have the ability to do so.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Skepdick » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:16 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:15 pm
Yes, good things normally do not do evil but they have the ability to do so.
If a good thing is always doing evil, does that still mean it's good?

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:23 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:16 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:15 pm
Yes, good things normally do not do evil but they have the ability to do so.
If a good thing is always doing evil, does that still mean it's good?
Yes. Good to me is the result of having a specific nature whereas ability to do other than what nature dictates is ability of any agent, so-called free will.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Skepdick » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:26 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:23 pm
Yes. Good to me is the result of having a specific nature.
OK, so "good" is a result e.g it's a consequence of nature. Isn't that the same as behaviour?
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:23 pm
whereas ability to do other than what nature dictates is ability of any agent, so-called free will.
How would you practically distinguish a person with good-nature who always does evil acts from a person with evil-nature who always does evil acts?

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:04 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:26 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:23 pm
Yes. Good to me is the result of having a specific nature.
OK, so "good" is a result e.g it's a consequence of nature. Isn't that the same as behaviour?
The behavior is outcome of our nature and decision.
Skepdick wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:26 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:23 pm
whereas ability to do other than what nature dictates is ability of any agent, so-called free will.
How would you practically distinguish a person with good-nature who always does evil acts from a person with evil-nature who always does evil acts?
It is impossible to know.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:55 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:15 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:03 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:48 pm

How do you know?
The word 'good' in relation to any thing means that whatever the thing is, it IS good. Good things do not do evil things.

If you wrote does God have the ability..., then the answer could be different.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:48 pm
Do you have any reason?
The same reason as above.
Yes, good things normally do not do evil but they have the ability to do so.
So when you asked the question, "Does good God have the ability to do evil?" you already KNEW what thee answer is, correct?

If yes, then when you asked the question, "If yes, is His evil act justifiable just because He is God?", then what actual evil acts are you referring to that God does, if you say God does evil acts? And is this the good God doing these evil acts or just God, Itself?

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:56 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:03 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:52 am

Contradiction.
If a God is claimed to be good, then, such a God cannot be claimed to be evil.
The two questions combined are NOT a contradiction at all. Also, where was a claim about God to be evil? What a thing does is not necessarily what it is.
If a good God can do evil, then it also has evil qualities, i.e. the propensity to do evil acts.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:52 am
(btw, God is an impossibility to be real)
If you say so. Is that an absolute irrefutable True fact, to you?
It is not a fact.
It is via reason, i.e. a God [imperative definition] cannot be real.
To you, what is the imperative definition for the word 'God'?

Are you aware that, to "others", 'It is via reason i.e. a God [imperative definition] cannot NOT be real? That is; God HAS TO be real.

So, whose 'imperative definition' is actually true, right, and correct, 'theirs' or 'yours'?
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
It is just a non-starter, like hypothesizing a square-circle exists and starting a search for it.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:52 am
Note the Problem of Evil, that a supposedly omni-benevolent God is indifferent to the natural catastrophes since eons that generate terrible suffering to humankind, is itself evil.
Why do some human beings think/believe that they are somehow so important in the scheme of things?

If it was not for perfectly natural events, which some human beings call "catastrophes", then human beings would not even be here in the first place and existing now.

Events do not cause suffering to "humankind". Human beings make up a perception of suffering and another one of "terrible suffering". As if suffering was not bad enough human beings had to make up the term "terrible suffering".

"Suffering" is just a relatively new phenomena brought about by, and for, human beings only. (Now this should evoke and bring about some challenging questions).
Are you implying human should ignore sufferings because it is an 'invented' concepts?
To me, it would be better if human beings actually clarified what it is that they think or believe that they are suffering from, BEFORE they think or believe that they are actually suffering. For example; I have heard human beings say that they are "suffering" because they do not have as much as "another". Some (a lot) of people can say that they are "suffering", but really all they are doing is 'whinging/complaining'
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
Re the concept of 'suffering' it is not that human beings are important to the scheme of things.
The concept of 'suffering' is critical for survival, i.e. recognizing 'suffering' by humans will enable humans to avoid them, thus prevent potential death if the suffering continue.
You can 'try' and make complex what is essentially very simple and basic, but really there is no need to.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
If a person is suffering, how can you expect the person to ignore it?
It all depends on what they are actually "suffering" IS, and from?

Millions upon millions of human beings in this day and age when this is written think and believe that they are suffering, but what the actual Truth IS has to be seen and discussed first.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
All humans has evolved with mirror neurons to empathize with others that are suffering, do you want those who empathize to stop doing so and let people suffer?
As I say, let us LOOK AT what the actual Truth IS first. For example; let us LOOK AT what 'your' imperative definition of what 'God' IS first, then we can move onto LOOKING AT and SEEING if human beings are actually and really "suffering", or if the "suffering" is just a disillusioned perception?

If people are REALLY suffering, then I do not want those who empathize to stop doing so and let people suffer. But I also do not want those who empathize to stop doing so and let some people suffer, ever or at all. But sadly the people who empathize do stop doing so and do let "others" suffer. This is what I would like to SHOW how to stop.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 am

Age wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:56 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:03 pm


The two questions combined are NOT a contradiction at all. Also, where was a claim about God to be evil? What a thing does is not necessarily what it is.
If a good God can do evil, then it also has evil qualities, i.e. the propensity to do evil acts.


If you say so. Is that an absolute irrefutable True fact, to you?
It is not a fact.
It is via reason, i.e. a God [imperative definition] cannot be real.
To you, what is the imperative definition for the word 'God'?

Are you aware that, to "others", 'It is via reason i.e. a God [imperative definition] cannot NOT be real? That is; God HAS TO be real.

So, whose 'imperative definition' is actually true, right, and correct, 'theirs' or 'yours'?
What is the imperative definition for the word 'Santa' to a child?
To a child, Santa cannot NOT-be-real, because he did deliver gifts to him/her on Christmas eve after flying all the way from the North via a flying reindeer sleigh.
But such a claim of Santa being real [child's reason] cannot be fully justified at all.

It is the same for the imperative definition of God to a theist, i.e. God is the omnipotent absolute perfect creator of the universe and for most will enable salvation and eternal life in heaven/paradise. A belief in God soothed their terrible pains arising from an existential crisis/ Such reasoning induce the theist to insist God is really real.
But like Santa, such a belief cannot be justified philosophically at all.
To me, it would be better if human beings actually clarified what it is that they think or believe that they are suffering from, BEFORE they think or believe that they are actually suffering. For example; I have heard human beings say that they are "suffering" because they do not have as much as "another". Some (a lot) of people can say that they are "suffering", but really all they are doing is 'whinging/complaining'
DNA wise ALL humans are programmed with the primal algorithm of pain or pleasure connected to every aspects of the brain, function and physical self, to facilitate survival.

Anything that is good for the human triggers desire and attachment thus pleasure to reinforce it As such, if the good things desired is not obtained or lost, sufferings [pain] is triggered to ensure the person pursue those that are desired, if achieved pleasure is triggered.

This program is crude without fine tunings, thus desired for things and the associated pleasure can turned around to be detrimental. Example, carbohydrates and fats are good for the body thus trigger desire and the more of it the greater the desire which is good thing when there is scarcity as in the past, but at present if without fine tuning we get a case of obesity and early deaths when caught in the desire cycle.

Some may be 'whinging/complaining' but the pain circuit [accompanied sufferings] is definitely triggered to some degrees which could be a good cause or the wrong reasons.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
Re the concept of 'suffering' it is not that human beings are important to the scheme of things.
The concept of 'suffering' is critical for survival, i.e. recognizing 'suffering' by humans will enable humans to avoid them, thus prevent potential death if the suffering continue.
You can 'try' and make complex what is essentially very simple and basic, but really there is no need to.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
If a person is suffering, how can you expect the person to ignore it?
It all depends on what they are actually "suffering" IS, and from?

Millions upon millions of human beings in this day and age when this is written think and believe that they are suffering, but what the actual Truth IS has to be seen and discussed first.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
All humans has evolved with mirror neurons to empathize with others that are suffering, do you want those who empathize to stop doing so and let people suffer?
Yes, explore, research and discuss first.
Note Buddhism made 'suffering' [dukkha] a central focus.
It identify the root causes of sufferings and proposes preventive steps to manage [not eliminate] such sufferings.
As I say, let us LOOK AT what the actual Truth IS first. For example; let us LOOK AT what 'your' imperative definition of what 'God' IS first, then we can move onto LOOKING AT and SEEING if human beings are actually and really "suffering", or if the "suffering" is just a disillusioned perception?

If people are REALLY suffering, then I do not want those who empathize to stop doing so and let people suffer. But I also do not want those who empathize to stop doing so and let some people suffer, ever or at all. But sadly the people who empathize do stop doing so and do let "others" suffer. This is what I would like to SHOW how to stop.
I have discussed the 'imperative definition of God' above.

Re 'sufferings' Buddhism has a thorough system to deal with it effectively.
Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193&p=377268&hil ... sm#p377268

The above teaches one how to fish [how to resolve one's own sufferings] instead of solely relying on others.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Skepdick » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:35 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:04 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:26 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:23 pm
whereas ability to do other than what nature dictates is ability of any agent, so-called free will.
How would you practically distinguish a person with good-nature who always does evil acts from a person with evil-nature who always does evil acts?
It is impossible to know.
So 'good' is unknowable and indistinguishable from 'evil' if it behaves the same way? Imagine that.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:23 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 am
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:56 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am

If a good God can do evil, then it also has evil qualities, i.e. the propensity to do evil acts.



It is not a fact.
It is via reason, i.e. a God [imperative definition] cannot be real.
To you, what is the imperative definition for the word 'God'?

Are you aware that, to "others", 'It is via reason i.e. a God [imperative definition] cannot NOT be real? That is; God HAS TO be real.

So, whose 'imperative definition' is actually true, right, and correct, 'theirs' or 'yours'?
What is the imperative definition for the word 'Santa' to a child?
To a child, Santa cannot NOT-be-real, because he did deliver gifts to him/her on Christmas eve after flying all the way from the North via a flying reindeer sleigh.
But such a claim of Santa being real [child's reason] cannot be fully justified at all.

It is the same for the imperative definition of God to a theist, i.e. God is the omnipotent absolute perfect creator of the universe and for most will enable salvation and eternal life in heaven/paradise.
From 'your' imperative definition of the word 'God' to a theist every and all of what 'you' say here can be validated and justified, except of course for the word 'most', which would obviously need to be replaced with and by the word 'all' to make this Truly Correct.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 am
A belief in God soothed their terrible pains arising from an existential crisis/ Such reasoning induce the theist to insist God is really real.
But like Santa, such a belief cannot be justified philosophically at all.
Why do you propose that you know this?

Do you have any actual evidence and/or proof for this, or is this just your belief?

Are you aware that you base things solely on your own past experiences, and then put those experiences as the reason WHY every one else is the way that they are?

Are you at all open to the idea that people can believe things for different reasons from WHY you believed things.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 am
To me, it would be better if human beings actually clarified what it is that they think or believe that they are suffering from, BEFORE they think or believe that they are actually suffering. For example; I have heard human beings say that they are "suffering" because they do not have as much as "another". Some (a lot) of people can say that they are "suffering", but really all they are doing is 'whinging/complaining'
DNA wise ALL humans are programmed with the primal algorithm of pain or pleasure connected to every aspects of the brain, function and physical self, to facilitate survival.

Anything that is good for the human triggers desire and attachment thus pleasure to reinforce it As such, if the good things desired is not obtained or lost, sufferings [pain] is triggered to ensure the person pursue those that are desired, if achieved pleasure is triggered.

This program is crude without fine tunings, thus desired for things and the associated pleasure can turned around to be detrimental. Example, carbohydrates and fats are good for the body thus trigger desire and the more of it the greater the desire which is good thing when there is scarcity as in the past, but at present if without fine tuning we get a case of obesity and early deaths when caught in the desire cycle.

Some may be 'whinging/complaining' but the pain circuit [accompanied sufferings] is definitely triggered to some degrees which could be a good cause or the wrong reasons.
As I just said; 'To me it would be better if human beings actually clarified what it is that they think or believe ...' Unfortunately this falls 'on death ears', as once again exampled and shown here.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
Re the concept of 'suffering' it is not that human beings are important to the scheme of things.
The concept of 'suffering' is critical for survival, i.e. recognizing 'suffering' by humans will enable humans to avoid them, thus prevent potential death if the suffering continue.
You can 'try' and make complex what is essentially very simple and basic, but really there is no need to.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
If a person is suffering, how can you expect the person to ignore it?
It all depends on what they are actually "suffering" IS, and from?

Millions upon millions of human beings in this day and age when this is written think and believe that they are suffering, but what the actual Truth IS has to be seen and discussed first.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 am
All humans has evolved with mirror neurons to empathize with others that are suffering, do you want those who empathize to stop doing so and let people suffer?
Yes, explore, research and discuss first.
Note Buddhism made 'suffering' [dukkha] a central focus.
It identify the root causes of sufferings and proposes preventive steps to manage [not eliminate] such sufferings.
Once again my point is completely missed.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 am
As I say, let us LOOK AT what the actual Truth IS first. For example; let us LOOK AT what 'your' imperative definition of what 'God' IS first, then we can move onto LOOKING AT and SEEING if human beings are actually and really "suffering", or if the "suffering" is just a disillusioned perception?

If people are REALLY suffering, then I do not want those who empathize to stop doing so and let people suffer. But I also do not want those who empathize to stop doing so and let some people suffer, ever or at all. But sadly the people who empathize do stop doing so and do let "others" suffer. This is what I would like to SHOW how to stop.
I have discussed the 'imperative definition of God' above.
That definition can very easily and very simply be verified as not just being possible but also as being actually True and Right. But this can only be understood by those who are Truly OPEN enough and are generally curiously wondering HOW?
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 am
Re 'sufferings' Buddhism has a thorough system to deal with it effectively.
IF that system was as thoroughly as effective as you are 'trying to' make out here, then things would be a lot different already. Unfortunately buddihism solely is NOT thee answer.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 am
Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193&p=377268&hil ... sm#p377268

The above teaches one how to fish [how to resolve one's own sufferings] instead of solely relying on others.
But this One has NO suffering at all. So there is nothing to resolve for this One. It is only those like 'you' who think or believe that they are "suffering" who NEED thee Resolution that will solve 'this' and ALL the other perceived "problems" in Life.

Also, why do you like to express buddhism as though it is thee solution, yet you are obviously completely unable to follow buddihism fully yourself?

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:09 pm

Age wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:55 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:15 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:03 am


The word 'good' in relation to any thing means that whatever the thing is, it IS good. Good things do not do evil things.

If you wrote does God have the ability..., then the answer could be different.



The same reason as above.
Yes, good things normally do not do evil but they have the ability to do so.
So when you asked the question, "Does good God have the ability to do evil?" you already KNEW what thee answer is, correct?
I knew the answer for human beings. I was wondering if there is an argument for God too.

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