Can good God do evil?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm

Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
seeds wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:52 pm

If you agree with all that I stated about the Catholic depiction of God, then can you not understand the problem with your thread title?
The title of this thread is about good God which includes the Catholic God too. I agree with what you stated that torturing people is not a good act. I am asking how a good God, such as the Catholic God, could possibly do evil.
seeds wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:52 pm
I mean, if your thread title is in reference to the Catholic God, and the Catholic God is apparently going to torture billions of defenseless souls for ETERNITY in a dimension of reality called hell,...

...then how can you begin with the premise (or assumption) that the Catholic God is good?

In other words, how can the Catholic God be used in a philosophical debate concerning a dilemma of how a “good” God could do something evil when, in fact, the Catholic God is allegedly going to perform an act of evilness that takes the definition of evilness to a level beyond our comprehension?


I cannot understand your question. Please reframe it so that it makes more sense.
_______
They claim that God is good.
Okay, this makes sense.
Great.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
They say God never wants individuals in Hell.
This also makes perfect sense.
Great.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
That is individuals decisions that lead them to Hell.
What do you mean by, 'That is'.

Do you mean that God never wants individuals to make decisions that lead them to hell?

If yes, then, to me, this clearly makes perfect sense, from a perspective of what 'hell' actually IS, which, by the way, is NOT the definition that you and just about all adult human beings have imagined 'hell' is like.

If no, then what do you mean exactly?
Individuals decide to sin. No sin is allowed though. The punishment for sin is Hell.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
What is my question is however something else. I am asking whether good God can do evil.
Will you accept that 'any God', by definition, can, or is able to, do anything?

If no, then what will you accept?

If yes, then the answer to your question is; Yes a 'good God' CAN do evil. BUT, being 'able to' do some thing does not necessitate that It will be done.
I agree with what you stated.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
So we need to accept goodness as a premise.
If we need to, then okay.
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
By goodness, I mean that God always does good.
So, now you question, and correct me if I am wrong, is asking: Whether a God that always does good can do evil?

The answer is still the same; Yes an always good doing God CAN do evil.

Obviously that God has, hitherto, NEVER done evil, but It still has the ability to do evil and so It CAN do evil, in the future, if It so chooses to. Has this answered your question and cleared things up somewhat for you now?
Yes. Thanks.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
God is also considered as a free agent.
Okay.
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
So here is the problem: Does God always choose good over evil or He is not able to choose evil?
Firstly God is NEVER a 'he'.
Okay, I try not to use it because of you. :mrgreen:
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
Secondly, you yourself have defined a 'good God' as ALWAYS doing good, therefore, by your own definition, God would always choose good over 'evil', which is what God ALWAYS does do anyway. (Unless of course some examples that prove otherwise are provided.) However in saying that, God ALWAYS allows human beings to choose whatever they want to choose. So, some might say that a God, which allows human beings to choose to do 'evil' over good is an 'evil' act or 'evil' doing itself. But each to their own.

Also, although God is ABLE to choose 'evil', God, to me, NEVER chooses 'evil'.
And where is the origin of evil? Human or God? In the first case, God created evil, humans with evil nature. God is basically responsible for this. This act is evil.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
I am sure you see the difference between these two questions. There is a tension between freedom and choosing evil. This is basically the first question.
I still do NOT see any 'tension' here.

To me, having the freedom to choose to do any thing certainly does not mean that that one HAS TO choose to do any particular thing either way.

God, and 'you', can certainly have the freedom to choose between doing good and right over bad and evil, without ever HAVING TO do one of those things.

If you still find your questions are not yet satisfactorily answered, then just explain why, and then I will answer in another way for you.
I think the situation is clear. I think I can conclude that a God with whatever nature, good or evil, can do always good. Therefore we will never know the true nature of God.

seeds
Posts: 831
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by seeds » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
I agree with all you stated.
seeds wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:52 pm
If you agree with all that I stated about the Catholic depiction of God, then can you not understand the problem with your thread title?
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
The title of this thread is about good God which includes the Catholic God too.
No, bahman, you specifically stated earlier that the thread title was in direct reference to the Catholic God, not that it simply “includes” the Catholic God.

So don’t try to make ad hoc adjustments to your story in order to counter my challenges.
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
I agree with what you stated that torturing people is not a good act. I am asking how a good God, such as the Catholic God, could possibly do evil.
I understand that, bahman.

However, I am asking you how and why you can consider the Catholic God to be a “good” God if, indeed, the Catholic God is allegedly going to sadistically torture billions of human souls for eternity?

In other words, where’s the “goodness” in such a God? - Point it out and describe it to us.

And please don’t tell me it’s because “they” (the Catholics) “say” so.

Because, similarly, I’m sure you will find quite a few brainwashed North Koreans who will insist that the despotic maniac Kim Jong-un is good.
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
My problem is the tension between goodness and freedom. Do you agree that there is tension?
seeds wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:52 pm
I cannot understand your question. Please reframe it so that it makes more sense.
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
They claim that God is good.
Again, bahman, some brainwashed North Koreans will no doubt claim that Kim is good (and let’s not forget all of the brainwashed Americans who believe that Trump is good).

The point is that you simply cannot trust the consensus beliefs of the proverbial “they.”
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
They say God never wants individuals in Hell.
Then why did the Catholic God create such a place?
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
That is individuals decisions that lead them to Hell.
Do I have to reiterate my earlier point about dipping them in molten steel so that they can truly understand the difference between heaven and hell and, thus, the literal consequences of their decisions?

Besides, wasn’t it the actions of two mythological knuckleheads in a mythological place called the Garden of Eden that has condemned humans to hell?

Therefore, the only “decision” that can lead a human to hell is by not performing the appropriate Christian rituals to keep them out...

...(which means that approximately 6 billion humans presently alive on Earth, along with untold billions of others who have lived and died in the past, are doomed come “judgment day”).
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
What is my question is however something else. I am asking whether good God can do evil.
Okay, but first, you are going to have to provide us with an irrefutable example of a “good” God, because you certainly cannot use the Catholic God.

And secondly, before you can ask the question of whether this (yet to be named “good God”) can do something evil, you are going to have to tell us precisely what you mean by “evil.”

In other words, instead of just tossing-up such a vague and relative word such as “evil”...

(because that which is “evil” to a zebra [e.g., the claws, fangs, and stealth of a lion], is “good” for the lion’s survival)

...you need to give us some actual examples of the evil you have in mind.
_______

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm

seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
I agree with all you stated.
seeds wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:52 pm
If you agree with all that I stated about the Catholic depiction of God, then can you not understand the problem with your thread title?
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
The title of this thread is about good God which includes the Catholic God too.
No, bahman, you specifically stated earlier that the thread title was in direct reference to the Catholic God, not that it simply “includes” the Catholic God.

So don’t try to make ad hoc adjustments to your story in order to counter my challenges.
I see no harm adding other good God into the discussion. Especially when you don't accept that the Catholic God is good as the first premise.
seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
I agree with what you stated that torturing people is not a good act. I am asking how a good God, such as the Catholic God, could possibly do evil.
I understand that, bahman.

However, I am asking you how and why you can consider the Catholic God to be a “good” God if, indeed, the Catholic God is allegedly going to sadistically torture billions of human souls for eternity?

In other words, where’s the “goodness” in such a God? - Point it out and describe it to us.

And please don’t tell me it’s because “they” (the Catholics) “say” so.

Because, similarly, I’m sure you will find quite a few brainwashed North Koreans who will insist that the despotic maniac Kim Jong-un is good.
I understand that the Catholic God is not good. My point is however whether a good God can do evil? My first intention was about Catholic God but for sake of discussion we need to shift the discussion to another good God. Otherwise, it is end of discussion since the Catholic God is not good. By the way, my discussion with age reach to the final point so perhaps you want to read the conclusion of the discussion there (previous post).
seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
What is my question is however something else. I am asking whether good God can do evil.
Okay, but first, you are going to have to provide us with an irrefutable example of a “good” God, because you certainly cannot use the Catholic God.
I don't recall good God. Perhaps others can help it.
seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
And secondly, before you can ask the question of whether this (yet to be named “good God”) can do something evil, you are going to have to tell us precisely what you mean by “evil.”
I don't have any definition for evil but I think we can agree that we can define actions to good and evil, for example, killing is evil by definition. An evil act in a situation is right and in another situation is wrong. The same applies to good action. To me things are situational and we can divide good and evil action into two other categories right and wrong.
seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
In other words, instead of just tossing-up such a vague and relative word such as “evil”...

(because that which is “evil” to a zebra [e.g., the claws, fangs, and stealth of a lion], is “good” for the lion’s survival)

...you need to give us some actual examples of the evil you have in mind.
_______
As I said I can define good and evil action and then divide them to right and wrong depending on the situation.

seeds
Posts: 831
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by seeds » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:57 am

bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
What is my question is however something else. I am asking whether good God can do evil.
seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
Okay, but first, you are going to have to provide us with an irrefutable example of a “good” God, because you certainly cannot use the Catholic God.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
I don't recall good God. Perhaps others can help it.
Oh come on now, bahman, if you are going to play this game, then you need to brush-up on the pantheon of humanity’s Gods.

I suggest that an example of a “good” God would perhaps be the Hindu deity Krishna.

According to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: Krishna is a major deity in Hinduism. He is worshipped as the eighth avatar of the god Vishnu and also as the supreme God in his own right. He is the god of compassion, tenderness, and love in Hinduism, and is one of the most popular and widely revered among Indian divinities.
Okay then, so tell me, what form of evil could the good God Krishna do that wouldn’t immediately strip him of his “good God” status?

I ask that because, logically, if a good God can do something that is truly evil...

(such as creating and then torturing defenseless souls in hell)

...then he/she/it was never a good God to begin with.

Therefore, I guess the answer to your question is NO, a genuinely good God cannot do something that is genuinely evil without instantly forfeiting its claim to goodness.

However, if you ask if a good God can do something that “appears” to be evil from the perspective of lower beings who are incapable of understanding the motives of the good God, then that’s another story.
_______

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:13 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:01 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:37 pm
be·lief
/bəˈlēf/

noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs

1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
"we're prepared to fight for our beliefs"
synonyms: opinion, view, viewpoint, point of view, attitude, stance, stand, standpoint, position, perspective, contention, conviction, judgment, thinking, way of thinking, thought, idea, theory, hypothesis, thesis, interpretation, assumption, presumption, supposition, surmise, postulation, conclusion, deduction, inference, notion, impression, sense, feeling, fancy, hunch
"she clung to the belief that Diane was innocent"

a religious conviction.
"Christian beliefs"
synonyms: ideology, principle, ideal, ethic, conviction; More

2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
synonyms: faith, trust, reliance, confidence, credence, freedom from doubt; More
antonyms: disbelief, doubt
To me, ALL of these definitions fit in just about perfectly with the definition I have for the word 'belief'.

Do you see any thing different or contradictory from MY definition of the word 'belief' to these definitions?
view, viewpoint, point of view, stance, stand, standpoint, position, perspective, contention, conviction, judgment, thinking, way of thinking, theory, hypothesis, thesis, interpretation, postulation, conclusion, deduction, inference, faith, trust, reliance, confidence, credence.

None of these words automatically requires that the "belief" in question has to be contrary to evidence, or in the absence of evidence -- and some (like hypothesis, theory, conclusion, and inference) are almost invariably associated with evidence. In fact, they're stock scientific terms. Apparently, scientists are not against believing.
(By the way be extremely careful how you answer this question. That is, if you ever do).
:D
Since you did not answer my yes/no question with a yes or no response, then I will ask again. Do you see any thing different or contradictory from MY definition of the word 'belief' to these definitions?

I await your answer.

Age
Posts: 3323
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:54 am

bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm

The title of this thread is about good God which includes the Catholic God too. I agree with what you stated that torturing people is not a good act. I am asking how a good God, such as the Catholic God, could possibly do evil.


They claim that God is good.
Okay, this makes sense.
Great.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
They say God never wants individuals in Hell.
This also makes perfect sense.
Great.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
That is individuals decisions that lead them to Hell.
What do you mean by, 'That is'.

Do you mean that God never wants individuals to make decisions that lead them to hell?

If yes, then, to me, this clearly makes perfect sense, from a perspective of what 'hell' actually IS, which, by the way, is NOT the definition that you and just about all adult human beings have imagined 'hell' is like.

If no, then what do you mean exactly?
Individuals decide to sin.
Individual adults decide to do ALL they want.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
No sin is allowed though.
By who?
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
The punishment for sin is Hell.
What do you think and say the words 'sin' and 'hell' actually mean?
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
What is my question is however something else. I am asking whether good God can do evil.
Will you accept that 'any God', by definition, can, or is able to, do anything?

If no, then what will you accept?

If yes, then the answer to your question is; Yes a 'good God' CAN do evil. BUT, being 'able to' do some thing does not necessitate that It will be done.
I agree with what you stated.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
So we need to accept goodness as a premise.
If we need to, then okay.
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
By goodness, I mean that God always does good.
So, now you question, and correct me if I am wrong, is asking: Whether a God that always does good can do evil?

The answer is still the same; Yes an always good doing God CAN do evil.

Obviously that God has, hitherto, NEVER done evil, but It still has the ability to do evil and so It CAN do evil, in the future, if It so chooses to. Has this answered your question and cleared things up somewhat for you now?
Yes. Thanks.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
God is also considered as a free agent.
Okay.
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
So here is the problem: Does God always choose good over evil or He is not able to choose evil?
Firstly God is NEVER a 'he'.
Okay, I try not to use it because of you. :mrgreen:
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
Secondly, you yourself have defined a 'good God' as ALWAYS doing good, therefore, by your own definition, God would always choose good over 'evil', which is what God ALWAYS does do anyway. (Unless of course some examples that prove otherwise are provided.) However in saying that, God ALWAYS allows human beings to choose whatever they want to choose. So, some might say that a God, which allows human beings to choose to do 'evil' over good is an 'evil' act or 'evil' doing itself. But each to their own.

Also, although God is ABLE to choose 'evil', God, to me, NEVER chooses 'evil'.
And where is the origin of evil?
How are you defining the word 'evil' here first?

There is a fairly common story out already, which explains when this began, but I will await your definition of 'evil' first.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
Human or God?
The answer to this is all dependent upon your definitions for words.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
In the first case, God created evil, humans with evil nature.
I will not ask you to define the word 'God', but what evidence do you have that humans have an 'evil' nature?

I will await your definition for the word 'evil', and see how it relates to any evidence provided.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
God is basically responsible for this. This act is evil.
If this is what you say and believe, then that is what is must be, to you.

But, to me, God creates human beings with the absolute freedom to choose to do whatever they so choose to do, and God is responsible for this creation. But, to me, this is NOT an 'evil' act all. If adult human beings do not want to take fully responsibility for what they choose to do, then passing blame onto some thing else, like God, is NOT going to achieve any thing at all.

To me, when, and if, human beings only do good, then they will live the way that is intended for them, which is just the way that they Truly want to live anyway. Or, if they continue to do the opposite of only doing good, then they will fall by the wayside. To do the opposite of what is just - good, which allows human beings to keep on living, is just bad. To only do good is, to live - to do the opposite of what is good, is evil
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 pm
I am sure you see the difference between these two questions. There is a tension between freedom and choosing evil. This is basically the first question.
I still do NOT see any 'tension' here.

To me, having the freedom to choose to do any thing certainly does not mean that that one HAS TO choose to do any particular thing either way.

God, and 'you', can certainly have the freedom to choose between doing good and right over bad and evil, without ever HAVING TO do one of those things.

If you still find your questions are not yet satisfactorily answered, then just explain why, and then I will answer in another way for you.
I think the situation is clear. I think I can conclude that a God with whatever nature, good or evil, can do always good. Therefore we will never know the true nature of God.
But the True Nature of God is ALREADY KNOWN.

Just learning how to express It though, so that 'It' can be fully and clearly understood, just takes some time.

The True Nature of God is good only. Unless, of course, any evidence is provided showing otherwise.

Age
Posts: 3323
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:04 am

seeds wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:57 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
What is my question is however something else. I am asking whether good God can do evil.
seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
Okay, but first, you are going to have to provide us with an irrefutable example of a “good” God, because you certainly cannot use the Catholic God.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
I don't recall good God. Perhaps others can help it.
Oh come on now, bahman, if you are going to play this game, then you need to brush-up on the pantheon of humanity’s Gods.

I suggest that an example of a “good” God would perhaps be the Hindu deity Krishna.

According to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: Krishna is a major deity in Hinduism. He is worshipped as the eighth avatar of the god Vishnu and also as the supreme God in his own right. He is the god of compassion, tenderness, and love in Hinduism, and is one of the most popular and widely revered among Indian divinities.
Okay then, so tell me, what form of evil could the good God Krishna do that wouldn’t immediately strip him of his “good God” status?

I ask that because, logically, if a good God can do something that is truly evil...

(such as creating and then torturing defenseless souls in hell)

...then he/she/it was never a good God to begin with.

Therefore, I guess the answer to your question is NO, a genuinely good God cannot do something that is genuinely evil without instantly forfeiting its claim to goodness.

However, if you ask if a good God can do something that “appears” to be evil from the perspective of lower beings who are incapable of understanding the motives of the good God, then that’s another story.
_______
On this last point, I am just wondering what reasons there are for why you, and/or bahman, consider that the God depicted generally by the peoples of the catholic following is not a good God?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:46 pm

Age wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:13 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:01 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 pm


To me, ALL of these definitions fit in just about perfectly with the definition I have for the word 'belief'.

Do you see any thing different or contradictory from MY definition of the word 'belief' to these definitions?
view, viewpoint, point of view, stance, stand, standpoint, position, perspective, contention, conviction, judgment, thinking, way of thinking, theory, hypothesis, thesis, interpretation, postulation, conclusion, deduction, inference, faith, trust, reliance, confidence, credence.

None of these words automatically requires that the "belief" in question has to be contrary to evidence, or in the absence of evidence -- and some (like hypothesis, theory, conclusion, and inference) are almost invariably associated with evidence. In fact, they're stock scientific terms. Apparently, scientists are not against believing.
(By the way be extremely careful how you answer this question. That is, if you ever do).
:D
Since you did not answer my yes/no question with a yes or no response, then I will ask again. Do you see any thing different or contradictory from MY definition of the word 'belief' to these definitions?

I await your answer.
Yes. I already answered, and the answer was "yes." :shock:

Not only that, but read the above, and you'll also see precisely WHAT I thought was different and contradictory. You could not possibly have a more complete answer.

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:48 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:57 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
What is my question is however something else. I am asking whether good God can do evil.
seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
Okay, but first, you are going to have to provide us with an irrefutable example of a “good” God, because you certainly cannot use the Catholic God.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
I don't recall good God. Perhaps others can help it.
Oh come on now, bahman, if you are going to play this game, then you need to brush-up on the pantheon of humanity’s Gods.

I suggest that an example of a “good” God would perhaps be the Hindu deity Krishna.

According to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: Krishna is a major deity in Hinduism. He is worshipped as the eighth avatar of the god Vishnu and also as the supreme God in his own right. He is the god of compassion, tenderness, and love in Hinduism, and is one of the most popular and widely revered among Indian divinities.
Okay then, so tell me, what form of evil could the good God Krishna do that wouldn’t immediately strip him of his “good God” status?

I ask that because, logically, if a good God can do something that is truly evil...

(such as creating and then torturing defenseless souls in hell)

...then he/she/it was never a good God to begin with.

Therefore, I guess the answer to your question is NO, a genuinely good God cannot do something that is genuinely evil without instantly forfeiting its claim to goodness.
_______
And what if God forfeits its claim to goodness. Can God do evil?

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bahman
Posts: 2432
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

Age wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:54 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

Okay, this makes sense.
Great.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

This also makes perfect sense.
Great.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

What do you mean by, 'That is'.

Do you mean that God never wants individuals to make decisions that lead them to hell?

If yes, then, to me, this clearly makes perfect sense, from a perspective of what 'hell' actually IS, which, by the way, is NOT the definition that you and just about all adult human beings have imagined 'hell' is like.

If no, then what do you mean exactly?
Individuals decide to sin.
Individual adults decide to do ALL they want.
Yes, and that it the problem when they decide to sin according to Cristian.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
No sin is allowed though.
By who?
By Catholic, Muslim, ..., God.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
The punishment for sin is Hell.
What do you think and say the words 'sin' and 'hell' actually mean?
Sin is what is prohibited by God. People have different views on what Hell is, some say that it is a state of torturing others say that it is a state of lack of God.

Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
Will you accept that 'any God', by definition, can, or is able to, do anything?

If no, then what will you accept?

If yes, then the answer to your question is; Yes a 'good God' CAN do evil. BUT, being 'able to' do some thing does not necessitate that It will be done.
I agree with what you stated.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

If we need to, then okay.

So, now you question, and correct me if I am wrong, is asking: Whether a God that always does good can do evil?

The answer is still the same; Yes an always good doing God CAN do evil.

Obviously that God has, hitherto, NEVER done evil, but It still has the ability to do evil and so It CAN do evil, in the future, if It so chooses to. Has this answered your question and cleared things up somewhat for you now?
Yes. Thanks.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

Okay.

Firstly God is NEVER a 'he'.
Okay, I try not to use it because of you. :mrgreen:
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
Secondly, you yourself have defined a 'good God' as ALWAYS doing good, therefore, by your own definition, God would always choose good over 'evil', which is what God ALWAYS does do anyway. (Unless of course some examples that prove otherwise are provided.) However in saying that, God ALWAYS allows human beings to choose whatever they want to choose. So, some might say that a God, which allows human beings to choose to do 'evil' over good is an 'evil' act or 'evil' doing itself. But each to their own.

Also, although God is ABLE to choose 'evil', God, to me, NEVER chooses 'evil'.
And where is the origin of evil?
How are you defining the word 'evil' here first?
There is no definition for evil. We just categorize our actions into good and evil. An example of evil action is killing.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
There is a fairly common story out already, which explains when this began, but I will await your definition of 'evil' first.
Okay. How did it start?
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
Human or God?
The answer to this is all dependent upon your definitions for words.
I already give one example of evil.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
In the first case, God created evil, humans with evil nature.
I will not ask you to define the word 'God', but what evidence do you have that humans have an 'evil' nature?
There are murderers. Look at history of humans to see the many cases of wars.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
I will await your definition for the word 'evil', and see how it relates to any evidence provided.
Ok, I am waiting for you now.
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
God is basically responsible for this. This act is evil.
If this is what you say and believe, then that is what is must be, to you.

But, to me, God creates human beings with the absolute freedom to choose to do whatever they so choose to do, and God is responsible for this creation. But, to me, this is NOT an 'evil' act all. If adult human beings do not want to take fully responsibility for what they choose to do, then passing blame onto some thing else, like God, is NOT going to achieve any thing at all.
Yes, responsibility is what is taught with the society. The reality is that each person has good and evil nature. Whether we do good and evil is situational. We, of course, are free to choose too.

Age
Posts: 3323
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:19 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:46 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:13 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:01 pm


view, viewpoint, point of view, stance, stand, standpoint, position, perspective, contention, conviction, judgment, thinking, way of thinking, theory, hypothesis, thesis, interpretation, postulation, conclusion, deduction, inference, faith, trust, reliance, confidence, credence.

None of these words automatically requires that the "belief" in question has to be contrary to evidence, or in the absence of evidence -- and some (like hypothesis, theory, conclusion, and inference) are almost invariably associated with evidence. In fact, they're stock scientific terms. Apparently, scientists are not against believing.



:D
Since you did not answer my yes/no question with a yes or no response, then I will ask again. Do you see any thing different or contradictory from MY definition of the word 'belief' to these definitions?

I await your answer.
Yes. I already answered, and the answer was "yes." :shock:

WHEN did you already answer and use the "yes" word?

Not only that, but read the above, and you'll also see precisely WHAT I thought was different and contradictory. You could not possibly have a more complete answer.
Okay great. Now, What exactly was MY definition?

You have proposed WHAT you think was different and contradictory from MY definition of 'belief' yet I wonder what you think MY definition for the word 'belief' actually IS? Because as far as I recall I have NOT even provided a definition for the word 'belief' yet.

So, when, and if, you show that, then we will be able to SEE if YOUR ASSUMPTION is even somewhat close to even being somewhat right.

Age
Posts: 3323
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:54 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm


Individuals decide to sin.
Individual adults decide to do ALL they want.
Yes, and that it the problem when they decide to sin according to Cristian.
From the definition I have for the word 'sin' it is completely impossible to choose to 'sin'. It would be completely contradictory to decide to 'sin'.

But I do SEE a lot of things differently than most people do.

Also, WHY is it that when people decide to 'sin', then that is a problem according to 'christians'?

What 'problems' do 'christians' see?
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:51 pm
No sin is allowed though.
By who?
By Catholic, Muslim, ..., God.
Besides God is NOT a person. Who do these people think they are, to decide what is allowed and what is not allowed?

Where do these people think that they obtained their understanding of what is right and what is wrong from? And what makes where they got it from RIGHT?

I say this, KNOWING that they could only provide answers that would be contradicting their own selves and the very thing that they are saying is not allowed.
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

What do you think and say the words 'sin' and 'hell' actually mean?
Sin is what is prohibited by God.
That is one definition, so now, what is actually prohibited by God?
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
People have different views on what Hell is, some say that it is a state of torturing others say that it is a state of lack of God.
And what do 'you' say it is?

Just to make it clear, if and when I ask a person directly how a word is defined, I would like to KNOW how 'they' define that word. I usually only ask a person directly to define a word that 'they' themselves are using, so that is WHY I want to KNOW 'their' definition for that word.

What 'hell' is, and WHY it is a state of torture and/or a state without God, plus a multitude of other things can ALL be explained fully, in a very simple and easy to understand logical and reasonable way, which can be tested for validity and soundness, and when doing so the Truth and Reality of things come to light to also.

bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

How are you defining the word 'evil' here first?
There is no definition for evil. We just categorize our actions into good and evil. An example of evil action is killing.
So, what you are really asking is; Where is the origin of 'some thing' that there is no definition for?
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
There is a fairly common story out already, which explains when this began, but I will await your definition of 'evil' first.
Okay. How did it start?
Considering you did not give a definition for the word 'evil', then it makes it somewhat harder to explain to you when 'some thing' with no definition began, HOWEVER, let me say that doing 'evil' is just doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good'.

Now, when human beings began doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good' is when they did the opposite of 'what they knew was good'. When human beings started 'doing wrong' is when 'evil' began.

There is a story about how this began. A woman KNEW that 'it was wrong' to do some thing, 'like touch and eat some thing that was KNOWN not to be touched or eaten, yet still went ahead and did it. Since then adult human beings have been continually 'doing wrong' or 'doing what they KNOW they are not meant to', or just 'doing the opposite of what they KNOW is the right thing to do'.
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

The answer to this is all dependent upon your definitions for words.
I already give one example of evil.
Giving an example of 'evil' is NOT defining what the word 'evil' actually means.

Are you aware that you are KILLING every day? Or, that you are even allowing the KILLING of human beings EVERY day?

Are you an 'evil' person for doing so?

If a person has the correct and proper definitions for the words they are using, PRIOR to using those words, like they KNOW what they are talking about, then this helps them in being better understood and being fully understood.
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

I will not ask you to define the word 'God', but what evidence do you have that humans have an 'evil' nature?
There are murderers. Look at history of humans to see the many cases of wars.
So, you say humans have an 'evil' nature. When you say this do you mean ALL human beings or only some?

If you say only some, then do you REALLY BELIEVE that a thing called God would only created SOME human beings with this so called 'evil' "nature"?

To me this is really a rather ridiculous thing to even suggest that the "nature" of a species is only given to SOME of that species.

You are also falling to that very common flaw of the adult human being of classing some people as some thing, like "murderers", as though this is only what they do.

Now, either ALL human beings have a 'nature', which is 'evil' or they ALL do not. Or, they ALL have a 'nature', which is good, or they ALL do not have this 'nature'. So, which is it to you?

Obviously there can NOT be a 'human nature' as it is called, but only SOME human beings get it and have it.

To me, from what I have observed is, ALL adult human beings do what is right AS WELL AS do what is wrong. To me, the nature of human beings, which separates them from ALL other animals species, is ALL human beings have the ability to learn, understand, and reason (any and every thing). No other animal has this ability or nature.
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
I will await your definition for the word 'evil', and see how it relates to any evidence provided.
Ok, I am waiting for you now.
Okay, just let me know if there is more that you would like from me.
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am

If this is what you say and believe, then that is what is must be, to you.

But, to me, God creates human beings with the absolute freedom to choose to do whatever they so choose to do, and God is responsible for this creation. But, to me, this is NOT an 'evil' act all. If adult human beings do not want to take fully responsibility for what they choose to do, then passing blame onto some thing else, like God, is NOT going to achieve any thing at all.
Yes, responsibility is what is taught with the society.
Anything can be taught through words, but children mostly follow actions.

Only WHEN adults ever start taking full responsibility, then that is only WHEN children will grow up doing the same. Hitherto, when this is written, this has NOT yet taken place.

Since the exact same time that, so called, "sinning" and/or "evil" began, 'you', adult human beings, have NOT been taking full responsibility for your wrong "actions" or behaviors. After the woman could not control her greedy ways and so touched and tasted what was KNOWN 'to be wrong', and then passed it onto the male, who also touched and tasted 'that', what was KNOWN to 'not be good', this type of greedy and passing blame behaviors have not really changed at all among 'you', adult human beings. Even when the accusation was made that he had done wrong, in the beginning, he instantly blamed some thing or some one else for what he actually chose and DID. Obviously she did NOT 'make him' 'touch and eat' or do the 'forbidden'. He obviously chose to do that himself.
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
The reality is that each person has good and evil nature. Whether we do good and evil is situational. We, of course, are free to choose too.
So, if this is the 'reality', then what exactly is this 'good and evil nature' that you now say ALL human beings have. And, WHY the 'trying to' blame some thing [a God] for this supposed 'good and evil nature'?

When a sound and valid explanation of what this 'good and evil nature' IS exactly, and HOW ALL human beings have obtained this so called "nature" (and whether any other animals have this "nature"), is also explained, then we will see just how much Truth is in what is expressed.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 am

Age wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:13 am
Okay great. Now, What exactly was MY definition?
I'll quote you.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:19 am
If I did BELIEVE that it is true, then I would NOT be open to fact that it may not be true nor would I be OPEN to any evidence provided that shows that it is not actually true at all.
Logically, what you are trying to say is that "belief" is that which is "not open to fact that it may not be true," and "would [not] be open to any evidence...that shows it is not actually true at all." In other words, you think "belief" does not attend to evidence.

If that's not right, it's because you misspoke.

But you were wrong. I showed you definitions that gave good evidence you were wrong. But I'm beginning to think you are, as you put it, "NOT open to fact that it may not be true," and not"OPEN to any evidence provided that shows that it is not actually true at all."

So I think we're circling the drain here.

Age
Posts: 3323
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:04 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 am
Age wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:13 am
Okay great. Now, What exactly was MY definition?
I'll quote you.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:19 am
If I did BELIEVE that it is true, then I would NOT be open to fact that it may not be true nor would I be OPEN to any evidence provided that shows that it is not actually true at all.
Logically, what you are trying to say is that "belief" is that which is "not open to fact that it may not be true," and "would [not] be open to any evidence...that shows it is not actually true at all." In other words, you think "belief" does not attend to evidence.
You could NOT be any FURTHER FROM the truth even if you tried to be.

Starting out with the word 'logically' is even illogical.

I am NOT 'trying to' say ANY THING at all as what you are saying here.

The definitions given here are the ones that YOU are providing. They are certainly NOT my definitions, nor any thing like I have provided.

A 'belief' is just a 'belief'. A 'belief' is NOT open nor is a 'belief' NOT closed. So, to me, a 'belief' is NOTHING like what you are proposing here.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 am
If that's not right, it's because you misspoke.
Could your words not be right for any other reason? Or, is solely and only because I "misspoke"? (whatever that actually really means?)

EVERY time I get some thing WRONG, it is ALWAYS because of ME. See, human beings NEVER hear me wrong, nor EVER misinterpret, misunderstand, or mistake what I say wrongly, it is ALWAYS because of some thing I did WRONG. Even when I say some thing, but NEVER a definition is given, and an ASSUMPTION is made of what I said or meant, then it is ALL my fault. Even if there is NEVER a clarifying question asked to me about what I actually do mean, then it is STILL ALWAYS my FAULT, for what THEY ASSUME, and then start thinking/believing. And it ALWAYS my FAULT for how my words get interpreted or misinterpreted.

So, hopefully for you I NEVER misspeak again (if that is even a real thing?) I will ask you AGAIN; What exactly was MY definition for the word 'belief' that I have given? (that is: if I have EVER even given one before?)

Can you direct us to any definition that I have given for the word 'belief' in this thread?

If yes, then great. Just direct us to it OR re-write it out again.

If no, then HOW could you EVER do as you say you did and: See any thing different or contradictory from MY definition of the word 'belief' to these definitions, which you have provided?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 am
But you were wrong. I showed you definitions that gave good evidence you were wrong.
Did you actually? Or is that just what you BELIEVED you did?

You even wrote: None of these words [which you gave for definitions of the word 'belief'] automatically requires that the "belief" in question has to be contrary to evidence, or in the absence of evidence --.

Just to make this absolutely clear, and so that I can not be accused of "misspeaking" again:
I have NEVER even thought of 'belief' as some thing "that has to be contrary to evidence", NOR HAVE I EVER ALSO, even thought that a 'belief' is some thing "in the absence of evidence".

YOU HAVE misconstrued my words, to suit YOUR OWN ASSUMPTIONS, without ever even being CLOSE to my view. You have NEVER even asked my what my definition for the word 'belief' is YET you want to come across as though you KNEW and KNOW exactly what MY definition WAS and IS.

So again, What was MY definition for the word 'belief' again?

As of now you have NOT yet actually written down what MY definition IS.

If I have NEVER even given a definition for the word 'belief', then HOW could you KNOW my definition is wrong?

So, again, HOW could my definition be wrong?

You have only ASSUMED some sort of definition I have, from what I have written, which has NEVER been a definition for the word 'belief'. All you are doing is basing EVERY thing now off of some ASSUMPTION that you have made.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 am
But I'm beginning to think you are, as you put it, "NOT open to fact that it may not be true," and not"OPEN to any evidence provided that shows that it is not actually true at all."

So I think we're circling the drain here.
I have NOT been circling nor going down any drain anywhere.

I have just been pointing out, in my way, how when the human brain starts ASSUMING things, then it is NOT open to the very Truth of things.

One being, you do NOT even KNOW what my definition for the word 'belief' is YET. So, if you start saying you can see different or contradictory definitions from MY definition, then, really, what are you basing this seeing and perception off of exactly?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm

Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:04 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 am
Age wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:13 am
Okay great. Now, What exactly was MY definition?
I'll quote you.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:19 am
If I did BELIEVE that it is true, then I would NOT be open to fact that it may not be true nor would I be OPEN to any evidence provided that shows that it is not actually true at all.
Logically, what you are trying to say is that "belief" is that which is "not open to fact that it may not be true," and "would [not] be open to any evidence...that shows it is not actually true at all." In other words, you think "belief" does not attend to evidence.
You could NOT be any FURTHER FROM the truth even if you tried to be.
That's funny. Because all I did is quote you verbatim. So if anybody's "wrong," it's the author of the quotation. And evidence was provided...solid evidence from a real dictionary, showing alternate readings of the world "believe."

But it seems no amount of evidence will persuade you.
EVERY time I get some thing WRONG, it is ALWAYS because of ME.
I can't help but agree. By definition if YOU get something wrong, it simply has to be "because of [YOU]." After all, it's "you" who are the only actor in such a sentence. And, by definition, the same would be true of anyone.

Nothing could be more certain.

But I fear we are indeed circling the drain. You have your view, you "believe" it (in your own very contrived sense of "believe") and you will not be moved by evidence, it seems, just as you defined it as being, in such cases.

So no more is to be said, I guess. So be well, and I suppose you will "believe" as you please. :wink:

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