bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Yes, and that it the problem when they decide to sin according to Cristian.
From the definition I have for the word 'sin' it is completely impossible to choose to 'sin'. It would be completely contradictory to decide to 'sin'.
What is your definition of sin?
Missing the mark.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
But I do SEE a lot of things differently than most people do.
What are those things?
God, heaven, hell, sin, in the beginning, creation, garden of eden, apocalypse, just to start with.
Most people are unable to define these things in a way that makes sense.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Also, WHY is it that when people decide to 'sin', then that is a problem according to 'christians'?
Because simply God wants them. I am not aware of any purpose to justify why God wants them.
What do you propose that this God thing wants people for what exactly?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
What 'problems' do 'christians' see?
To go against what God prohibited, sin.
Again, what does God prohibit?
How are you defining the word 'sin'?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
By Catholic, Muslim, ..., God.
Besides God is NOT a person. Who do these people think they are, to decide what is allowed and what is not allowed?
According to what people say that is God who has ultimate authority, therefore, God is allowed to give a set of rules to us to act accordingly otherwise you might be held in Hell, Fire for example, for eternity.
But God already has and always IS giving the "set of rules", which is just one rule.
When how this is done and how the one rule works, then also living in hell or heaven will also be understood.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Where do these people think that they obtained their understanding of what is right and what is wrong from?
From God, either directly or indirectly.
So the exact same place EVERY person gains their knowledge of what is right and what is wrong, correct?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
And what makes where they got it from RIGHT?
They believe so.
But those people are completely incapable of explaining what this 'God' thing is exactly.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
I say this, KNOWING that they could only provide answers that would be contradicting their own selves and the very thing that they are saying is not allowed.
Probably.
This is the same as how you also are unable to provide answers without contradicting your own self.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Sin is what is prohibited by God.
That is one definition, so now, what is actually prohibited by God?
Killing for example.
How do you KNOW this?
What is 'God' to you?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
People have different views on what Hell is, some say that it is a state of torturing others say that it is a state of lack of God.
And what do 'you' say it is?
Hell could be a very pleasant place for people who like it, like masochists who enjoy pain.
Are you talking here on earth or in some other place?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Just to make it clear, if and when I ask a person directly how a word is defined, I would like to KNOW how 'they' define that word. I usually only ask a person directly to define a word that 'they' themselves are using, so that is WHY I want to KNOW 'their' definition for that word.
They believe in objective morality, what God says is good.
So, I just explained that when I ask A PERSON directly how a word is defined, ...
Your first word in reply is 'THEY', and then go on to explain what 'THEY' believe ....
Obviously you are completely 'missing the mark', once again.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
What 'hell' is, and WHY it is a state of torture and/or a state without God, plus a multitude of other things can ALL be explained fully, in a very simple and easy to understand logical and reasonable way, which can be tested for validity and soundness, and when doing so the Truth and Reality of things come to light to also.
Can you provide your tests?
Yes.
But if you noticed what I wrote, I said that WHEN what 'hell' is and why 'hell' IS the way it is, from the definition you gave for the word 'hell', is explained and understood in a logical and reasonable way, THEN the validity and soundness of what is explained can be tested, seen, and then whether it stacks up or not can be seen and understood.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
There is no definition for evil. We just categorize our actions into good and evil. An example of evil action is killing.
So, what you are really asking is; Where is the origin of 'some thing' that there is no definition for?
I think that one cannot defend objective morality unless s/he defines good and evil.
But remember it was YOU just NOW who stated: There is NO definition for evil. So, how could any person define what, to you, there is NO definition for?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm I don't understand why stress in the existence of objective morality.
I do not really understand what you are suggesting here.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Okay. How did it start?
Considering you did not give a definition for the word 'evil', then it makes it somewhat harder to explain to you when 'some thing' with no definition began, HOWEVER, let me say that doing 'evil' is just doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good'.
Your definition is circular unless you can define good and wrong.
Well explaining 'what is right' and 'what is wrong' is very easy to do. But for this explanation to be understood one needs to be OPEN to the fact that there just might be an objective morality.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Now, when human beings began doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good' is when they did the opposite of 'what they knew was good'. When human beings started 'doing wrong' is when 'evil' began.
Of course.
Great, so you agree with this.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
There is a story about how this began. A woman KNEW that 'it was wrong' to do some thing, 'like touch and eat some thing that was KNOWN not to be touched or eaten, yet still went ahead and did it. Since then adult human beings have been continually 'doing wrong' or 'doing what they KNOW they are not meant to', or just 'doing the opposite of what they KNOW is the right thing to do'.
Are you talking about Adam and Eve?
I am talking about a story, which has been around for some time, which has characters in it called "adam" and "eve".
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmWhere is your resource?
Have you not heard of this story before? Your response about adam and eve suggests otherwise.
If you have heard of this story, then that is thee resource.
What are you resources? I think you might find that most of them come from 'stories' also.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmI mean, what is your religion?
I have absolutely NO religion, except in the BELIEF in one's Self, and Its ability to achieve what It sets out to do.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
I already give one example of evil.
Giving an example of 'evil' is NOT defining what the word 'evil' actually means.
I know, but that is all we can do.
When replying to my clarifying questions asked directly to you, in relation to what YOU write, then it helps us both much better if you reply for YOU only, and do NOT 'try to' speak for "others" as well. Because what 'we', you and I, CAN do is NOT always what you think and believe.
What I CAN do, you will have to wait and see.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmThere is no definition for evil. I already provided my objection to your definition.
And what exactly is MY definition?
And where did I provide that definition?
Your honest answers would be most welcomed and appreciated.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Are you aware that you are KILLING every day? Or, that you are even allowing the KILLING of human beings EVERY day?
I cannot understand your question.
Either you are aware of some thing or you are not. So, which one is it? It is that simple.
Also, if some one is really interested in understanding, then they usually ask clarifying questions to gain an understanding. I found that this asking clarifying questions CAN BE the quickest, simplest, and easiest way to gain a True
understanding of things.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Are you an 'evil' person for doing so?
Yes, by definition I am an evil person if I kill a person. By my understanding, an evil act can be right (what we should do) or wrong (what we should avoid).
Correct me if I read you wrong but did you just say here; That protecting children, for example, (what we should do) can be an 'evil' act?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
If a person has the correct and proper definitions for the words they are using, PRIOR to using those words, like they KNOW what they are talking about, then this helps them in being better understood and being fully understood.
I am aware of that and I agree.
So, WHY do you use words like 'evil' if you are completely and utterly incapable of defining them at all?
As well use words like, 'God, 'heaven', 'hell, et ceteral
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
There are murderers. Look at history of humans to see the many cases of wars.
So, you say humans have an 'evil' nature. When you say this do you mean ALL human beings or only some?
We all have evil nature to some extent some are weak and some are strong.
What are you trying to say here?
Some are weak, and, some are strong in relation to WHAT exactly?
Also, either ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature to all extent, or they do not. There can not be some humans have an 'evil' nature "to some extent", while "others" have an 'evil' nature "to another extent".
Either ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature or they do not.
Now, which one is it?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
If you say only some, then do you REALLY BELIEVE that a thing called God would only created SOME human beings with this so called 'evil' "nature"?
If you believe that good God created human and human has evil nature then it follows that God created evil.
You missed the mark, and the point, once again. Your reply here has nothing to do with what I said in the quote.
However, if you want to state what you have here, then;
1. I do not believe any such thing that you have said here, so any statement that begins with "If you believe [and what you then said] is a completely moot point.
2. You are stuck on the terms 'good God' and an 'evil nature'. You state, that "There is NO definition for evil", yet you continue to insist that human beings have an 'evil' nature.
3. If human beings do, so called, 'evil' or wrong things, then that in no way infers that ANY God created evil. God, however, may have created life to evolve into a so called "human being", which God KNEW would eventually do 'evil' or wrong things anyway, for a very specific and simple reason that could be explained very easily.
So, ANY God creating a species, which is FREE to choose whether to do what they call 'evil' things or not, does NOT then follow that that God created evil.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
To me this is really a rather ridiculous thing to even suggest that the "nature" of a species is only given to SOME of that species.
True. As I said we all have evil nature to some extend.
Now define what you mean by 'to some extent'?
How can ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature, to some extent?
To what 'extent' are you actually referring to, and what are you basing this 'extent' relative to exactly?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
You are also falling to that very common flaw of the adult human being of classing some people as some thing, like "murderers", as though this is only what they do.
What do you mean?
When 'you', human beings, call one of 'you' some thing like; a "murder", or ANY other of the labels that get used, then that subliminally infers that that is all they are are, and thus all they do.
It is a way to "justify" one's self WHY 'they' are not like 'me' and not one of 'us'.
The trouble 'you', human beings, have is defining things accurately and properly, so that the Truth of things can be SEEN and fully understood.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Now, either ALL human beings have a 'nature', which is 'evil' or they ALL do not. Or, they ALL have a 'nature', which is good, or they ALL do not have this 'nature'. So, which is it to you?
All have evil nature to some extent.
Okay. Now please explain;
HOW you KNOW this?
Where the 'evil' nature actually came from?
What and how this nature affects and controls 'you'?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Obviously there can NOT be a 'human nature' as it is called, but only SOME human beings get it and have it.
What do you mean?
I was just following the same line of thought of IF you were thinking one way. But you HAVE ALREADY explained that, to you, ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature, "to some extent".
What I WAS meaning was that because I was still unsure IF you were saying ALL human beings had 'evil' nature, or just some had it, and while I was awaiting your answer, then I was just saying what was obviously not possible.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmEvil is a part of our nature.
Is that an irrefutable FACT, or just some thing that you think or believe is true?
What else do you say is "human nature"?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
To me, from what I have observed is, ALL adult human beings do what is right AS WELL AS do what is wrong. To me, the nature of human beings, which separates them from ALL other animals species, is ALL human beings have
the ability to learn, understand, and reason (any and every thing). No other animal has this
ability or
nature.
True. But shouldn't we always avoid doing the wrong things given the fact that we are intelligent agents?
But it is people just like you who when keep insisting that there is NO definition of 'evil', nor can 'what is right' and 'what is wrong' be known, as well as when insisting that there is NO 'moral objectivity' are the ones who are SHOWING that it is NEVER possible to KNOW what 'should' be avoided or 'should not' ever be avoided.
I say 'we', human beings, should NOT do the wrong things, but 'we' have to first AGREE to 'what is wrong' and 'what is right'.
Do 'you' have any idea or clue about 'what is actually right' and 'what is actually wrong'?
If yes, then please provide them.
If, however, you have no idea nor clue, then WHY ask the question, "Shouldn't we always avoid doing the wrong things given the fact that we are intelligent species?"
Also, on this point of supposedly being an "intelligent species" also, A truly intelligent species would ALREADY actually KNOW 'what is right' AND 'what is wrong', correct?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Ok, I am waiting for you now.
Okay, just let me know if there is more that you would like from me.
Your definition of evil is incomplete unless you provide a definition for wrong and good.
Have I provided a definition for 'evil'? If yes, then what was it?
Also, you were the one suggesting that you should always avoid doing wrong. If this is what you were suggesting, then what do you propose is 'right' and 'wrong'.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
The reality is that each person has good and evil nature. Whether we do good and evil is situational. We, of course, are free to choose too.
So, if this is the 'reality', then what exactly is this 'good and evil nature' that you now say ALL human beings have.
Nature is what causes evil or good urge.
So, what is 'evil' and what is 'good', which you say nature urges you to do?
Also, why would 'Nature', Itself, urge 'you' to do some thing that you class as 'evil'?
I would suggest that 'Nature' would only urge 'you' to do 'that' what is good and right for 'you', and ALL things equally.
WHY would, and HOW could, Nature urge 'you' to do some thing 'evil', which would obviously go against Nature, Itself?
It appears that when you 'try to' start defining what you think is true and right, you are leading yourself into contradicting your own self here.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
And, WHY the 'trying to' blame some thing [a God] for this supposed 'good and evil nature'?
Because that is God who created evil nature. We couldn't possibly do evil if we had good nature.
So are you now saying that you only have 'evil' nature and NO 'good' nature at all?
This is how it appears so now.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pmAge wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
When a sound and valid explanation of what this 'good and evil nature' IS exactly, and HOW ALL human beings have obtained this so called "nature" (and whether any other animals have this "nature"), is also explained, then we will see just how much Truth is in what is expressed.
I agree.
So, would you like to start explaining, with sound and valid explanations, what it is that you are 'trying to' say and get at here?
You started a thread, with a question, which is obviously fishing or trolling for some thing. So, what is it that you are exactly wanting and 'trying to' do here?
Would you like to find "others" and SHOW where they are WRONG? Or,
Would you like to just say what it is that you think and/or believe is true?
Or, is there some thing else that you would like to achieve in this thread.
We have already informed you that God, including a so called "good" God, CAN do any thing. So, what is it that you are REALLY after.
By the way, WHY are you using the label "good" God, when it is you who is completely incapable of defining the word "good" anyway here?