Can good God do evil?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by seeds » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:36 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:57 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
What is my question is however something else. I am asking whether good God can do evil.
seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
Okay, but first, you are going to have to provide us with an irrefutable example of a “good” God, because you certainly cannot use the Catholic God.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
I don't recall good God. Perhaps others can help it.
Oh come on now, bahman, if you are going to play this game, then you need to brush-up on the pantheon of humanity’s Gods.

I suggest that an example of a “good” God would perhaps be the Hindu deity Krishna.

According to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: Krishna is a major deity in Hinduism. He is worshipped as the eighth avatar of the god Vishnu and also as the supreme God in his own right. He is the god of compassion, tenderness, and love in Hinduism, and is one of the most popular and widely revered among Indian divinities.
Okay then, so tell me, what form of evil could the good God Krishna do that wouldn’t immediately strip him of his “good God” status?

I ask that because, logically, if a good God can do something that is truly evil...

(such as creating and then torturing defenseless souls in hell)

...then he/she/it was never a good God to begin with.

Therefore, I guess the answer to your question is NO, a genuinely good God cannot do something that is genuinely evil without instantly forfeiting its claim to goodness.
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:48 pm
And what if God forfeits its claim to goodness. Can God do evil?
bahman, why would you ask a question to which the answer should be glaringly obvious?

Now I am not insisting that you agree with me, but can you not analyze ideas and information and then come to your own conclusions as to what the information is clearly implying?

Apparently not.

So I’ll just go ahead and spoon feed you the answer:

In the context of this highly speculative conversation we are having, then YES, a God that forfeits its claim to goodness - can do evil.
_______

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:18 pm

Age wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:30 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:58 am

By the way 'God' is not a "he".
What an incredible statement.

You know this as a fact, how?

Regards
DL
Because I KNOW what 'God' IS.
Know indicates certainty. How are you be certain that a supernatural God even exists?

What is your proof of concept?

Have you not heard that all the gods are just man made constructs?

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:25 pm

Age wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:31 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:15 pm


There can be yin with yang and still NO need to do some thing.

You do NOT have to do evil but you choose to, and 'you' can still exist.
We do have to do what some will see as evil to survive.
If you want to make a statement, claim it to be true like you have done here, and want it accepted and understood, then you have to give some examples, and then wait for clarifying questions.

Why do only 'some' see what 'you' do, to survive, as evil?
What do the "others" see?
What examples of 'evil' are you talking about here?
And, what does 'evil' actually mean, to you?

Until you start explaining, then your statement is clearly wrong and false, to me.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
That is rather a long story.
If it is worth sharing, then the earlier you start then the better.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Can you help but do evil?
I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
WHAT are you talking about here?

WHAT is THIS about, and what is it in relation to exactly?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
Who cares what people who you label and call "christians" "are always trying to absolve"? If you want thee Truth, then stick to what you SEE and KNOW.

By the way WHO do you put the blame on for what 'you', human beings, do?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.
Let us start by you clearly explaining WHAT 'human nature' IS exactly?

Then you explaining HOW God is culpable? Do you even think God is real?

Do you even think human beings have 'free will'?

Just maybe, as I stated earlier, it is 'you', and YOUR BELIEFS, that is STOPPING you from SEEING the actual Truth of things here.

How about you state your BELIEFS first, then it will become CLEAR to every one reading this WHY "it is so hard" for you to chat with "others" about these type of things?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Free will is only the ability to choose.
I agree. Are you saying that human beings do not have the ability to choose?

It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action).
Was that even being questioned?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place.
Okay if you say so. So, why do we not LOOK AT this?

Again, what do 'you' propose is the 'nature' given to human beings by God?

The story of adam and eve can be simply explained, very easily. That is; to those who are OPEN to hearing and listening to it.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
Okay. So you have concluded that God is capable. I say God is responsible for EVERY thing. So, now what do we do?

Do you want to keep following your own thoughts, assumptions and beliefs? Or, do you want to LISTEN to other perspectives of things?

If God is FULLY culpable, and thus also FULLY responsible, and God being omnipotent and ALL-knowing, then maybe just LISTENING to some thing else other than your own ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS, then you WILL learn HOW every thing can be corrected and put back onto the right path?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant.
WHY is this necessarily so?

If the logic to argue this is sound and valid, then, If all do good by nature, then the good nature is dominant.

Your logic and argument does not work.

By the way it could very easily be argued that ALL do good, but only some do evil/sin/bad.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil?
Yes.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I do not see how. Do you?
Yes.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. [/quote]

If you are at all interested I agree with ALL the truth in every thing and disagree with ALL the falsehoods in every thing.

Also what IS a 'gnostic christian naturalist' exactly?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s.
Okay. So now we will have to LOOK AT the above from another perspective.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.
Okay, if you say so. But how about 'free will' is just some thing human beings have?

By the way, to me, human beings having a 'free will' nature is completely equal to human beings also having a 'deterministic' nature. Both 'free will' and 'determined' are just naturally within human beings. This is just how they have evolved in creation.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.
Just about ALL that has been written to explain 'evil' and 'sin' is a misconstrued version of thee Truth of things.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil.
Perfect.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
Okay. For interest sake I just call this 'bad', compared to 'wrong'. To me, intending to hurt or harm is 'bad', while unintentionally doing hurt or harm is 'wrong'.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
'

Agreed. We can do one OR the other.

We do what we WANT and CHOOSE to do.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.
'

Or, some one might be, or is 'trying to' be, cooperating with "others", while ALL of the "others" just are, or are 'trying to' be, competing with that one?

NOT EVERY one has to be doing what EVERY one ELSE is doing.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
Why?

How is competing, or in your words "doing evil", keeping us from extinction. On first glance, to me, this seems absurd and a contradiction of terms.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
So, to you, "We would likely go extinct without competition and evil".

Now, this is probably the biggest example of an attempt at 'trying to' "justify" one's obviously wrong and bad or evil behaviors that I have ever seen and heard.

The logic that was used to reason out, which led to this conclusion would make great reading. Would you like to share the logic and reasoning you used to arrive at such a conclusion?

But first let us just hear again what one human being uses as a "justification" for ALL human beings to just keep on doing evil: "We would likely go extinct without competition and evil. In other words: If you do not keep on competing with "others" and doing evil, then we would likely go extinct".

Do you pass on this "justified" piece of advice directly like this to the children you know?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
But I am NOT a believer in any thing other than; thee Real and True Self, which is able to accomplish any thing that It sets out to do.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct.
Is there any difference between 'God' and 'Nature'?

What I SEE is; without evolution 'we', human beings, would not be HERE-NOW. But this is NOT to say; without evolution 'we', human beings, can STILL go extinct.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
We must do good and evil.
If you say we MUST do good and evil, then we MUST continue to do good AND 'evil'. Thank you for this "worldly and wise" piece of advice. I will use it as a "justification" EVERY time from now on for ALL the 'evil' I MUST continue to do.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue.
Nor on any other issue that I can SEE and have observed either. I agree there is NO conflict between Nature AND God on any thing.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
This is how things are and should be.
Is there any possibility that this is NOT how things are and should be on ALL of what you have written above? Or, are you just incapable of being wrong any where?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
To 'WHAT' competition.

I do NOT SEE that there HAS TO be competition ANY where. I have certainly NOT observed ANY reason for WHY there is competition nor a NEED for competition also. However, in saying that, I do observe adult human beings continuously competing, which is obviously leading tremendously to their downfall.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new ... 66/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
But there IS original 'sin'.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive.
As I have said previously; Human beings will 'try' absolutely any thing to align things with their ALREADY HELD BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS, and to 'try to' "justify" their wrong doings.

This here is another great example of the type of misbehavior used by the human being animal.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Our default position is to cooperate or to do good.
So WHY do 'you' NOT stay on your default position, instead of deviating away from it?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil?
No. I can always only do good and NOT do evil.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I do not see how.
Okay. This might be because you LOOK AT things from your own assumptions and beliefs, and therefore you are NOT fully OPEN.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Do you?
Yes. It is very easy to SEE how to NOT do evil. But there are some other things that you need to learn and know first.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
Who is distorted or twisted enough to think or believe that God is punishing them anyway?
[/quote]

As per your request.

This older O.P. was written for a religious answer. It answers many of your questions.

-----------

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new ... 66/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:34 pm

Age wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:31 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:06 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:00 pm

That's how the general thinking goes.


However, you (chose? forgot?) to answer the final question. Given the choice of either algorithm, would you buy a car that doesn't put your safety first? ;)
Yes. Always. I would outlaw the opposite computer. That is the natural choice for any human male.
If he is a real man that is.

If I had to make a rule for a computer that insures the best end for all humans, I would say that the first computer law is such that the computer always puts women and children first and kills more men to save women and children. All a computer is is a counting machine so it has to go by the numbers.

If you think in demographic terms as well, it is the scientifically sound thing to do.

Regards
DL
Why NOT just put children first ONLY.

IF ALL adults were wiped out, and ONLY children left, who had NOT been harmed and damaged to much by adults already, then living on earth would be a much more happier, peaceful, and successful existence, than it is right now.
Why NOT just put children first ONLY.

Baby needs a tit, man is the first line of defence for family and friends, followed by women. Anything else is un-natural.

Regards
DL

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bahman
Posts: 2342
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm

Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:54 am
Individual adults decide to do ALL they want.
Yes, and that it the problem when they decide to sin according to Cristian.
From the definition I have for the word 'sin' it is completely impossible to choose to 'sin'. It would be completely contradictory to decide to 'sin'.
What is your definition of sin?
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
But I do SEE a lot of things differently than most people do.
What are those things?
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Also, WHY is it that when people decide to 'sin', then that is a problem according to 'christians'?
Because simply God wants them. I am not aware of any purpose to justify why God wants them.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
What 'problems' do 'christians' see?
To go against what God prohibited, sin.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
By who?
By Catholic, Muslim, ..., God.
Besides God is NOT a person. Who do these people think they are, to decide what is allowed and what is not allowed?
According to what people say that is God who has ultimate authority, therefore, God is allowed to give a set of rules to us to act accordingly otherwise you might be held in Hell, Fire for example, for eternity.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Where do these people think that they obtained their understanding of what is right and what is wrong from?
From God, either directly or indirectly.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
And what makes where they got it from RIGHT?
They believe so.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
I say this, KNOWING that they could only provide answers that would be contradicting their own selves and the very thing that they are saying is not allowed.
Probably.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
What do you think and say the words 'sin' and 'hell' actually mean?
Sin is what is prohibited by God.
That is one definition, so now, what is actually prohibited by God?
Killing for example.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
People have different views on what Hell is, some say that it is a state of torturing others say that it is a state of lack of God.
And what do 'you' say it is?
Hell could be a very pleasant place for people who like it, like masochists who enjoy pain.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Just to make it clear, if and when I ask a person directly how a word is defined, I would like to KNOW how 'they' define that word. I usually only ask a person directly to define a word that 'they' themselves are using, so that is WHY I want to KNOW 'their' definition for that word.
They believe in objective morality, what God says is good.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
What 'hell' is, and WHY it is a state of torture and/or a state without God, plus a multitude of other things can ALL be explained fully, in a very simple and easy to understand logical and reasonable way, which can be tested for validity and soundness, and when doing so the Truth and Reality of things come to light to also.
Can you provide your tests?
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
How are you defining the word 'evil' here first?
There is no definition for evil. We just categorize our actions into good and evil. An example of evil action is killing.
So, what you are really asking is; Where is the origin of 'some thing' that there is no definition for?
I think that one cannot defend objective morality unless s/he defines good and evil. I don't understand why stress in the existence of objective morality.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
There is a fairly common story out already, which explains when this began, but I will await your definition of 'evil' first.
Okay. How did it start?
Considering you did not give a definition for the word 'evil', then it makes it somewhat harder to explain to you when 'some thing' with no definition began, HOWEVER, let me say that doing 'evil' is just doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good'.
Your definition is circular unless you can define good and wrong.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Now, when human beings began doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good' is when they did the opposite of 'what they knew was good'. When human beings started 'doing wrong' is when 'evil' began.
Of course.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
There is a story about how this began. A woman KNEW that 'it was wrong' to do some thing, 'like touch and eat some thing that was KNOWN not to be touched or eaten, yet still went ahead and did it. Since then adult human beings have been continually 'doing wrong' or 'doing what they KNOW they are not meant to', or just 'doing the opposite of what they KNOW is the right thing to do'.
Are you talking about Adam and Eve? Where is your resource? I mean, what is your religion?
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
The answer to this is all dependent upon your definitions for words.
I already give one example of evil.
Giving an example of 'evil' is NOT defining what the word 'evil' actually means.
I know, but that is all we can do. There is no definition for evil. I already provided my objection to your definition.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Are you aware that you are KILLING every day? Or, that you are even allowing the KILLING of human beings EVERY day?
I cannot understand your question.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Are you an 'evil' person for doing so?
Yes, by definition I am an evil person if I kill a person. By my understanding, an evil act can be right (what we should do) or wrong (what we should avoid).
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
If a person has the correct and proper definitions for the words they are using, PRIOR to using those words, like they KNOW what they are talking about, then this helps them in being better understood and being fully understood.
I am aware of that and I agree.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
I will not ask you to define the word 'God', but what evidence do you have that humans have an 'evil' nature?
There are murderers. Look at history of humans to see the many cases of wars.
So, you say humans have an 'evil' nature. When you say this do you mean ALL human beings or only some?
We all have evil nature to some extent some are weak and some are strong.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
If you say only some, then do you REALLY BELIEVE that a thing called God would only created SOME human beings with this so called 'evil' "nature"?
If you believe that good God created human and human has evil nature then it follows that God created evil.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
To me this is really a rather ridiculous thing to even suggest that the "nature" of a species is only given to SOME of that species.
True. As I said we all have evil nature to some extend.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
You are also falling to that very common flaw of the adult human being of classing some people as some thing, like "murderers", as though this is only what they do.
What do you mean?
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Now, either ALL human beings have a 'nature', which is 'evil' or they ALL do not. Or, they ALL have a 'nature', which is good, or they ALL do not have this 'nature'. So, which is it to you?
All have evil nature to some extent.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Obviously there can NOT be a 'human nature' as it is called, but only SOME human beings get it and have it.
What do you mean? Evil is a part of our nature.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
To me, from what I have observed is, ALL adult human beings do what is right AS WELL AS do what is wrong. To me, the nature of human beings, which separates them from ALL other animals species, is ALL human beings have the ability to learn, understand, and reason (any and every thing). No other animal has this ability or nature.
True. But shouldn't we always avoid doing the wrong things given the fact that we are intelligent agents?
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:26 am
I will await your definition for the word 'evil', and see how it relates to any evidence provided.
Ok, I am waiting for you now.
Okay, just let me know if there is more that you would like from me.
Your definition of evil is incomplete unless you provide a definition for wrong and good.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
The reality is that each person has good and evil nature. Whether we do good and evil is situational. We, of course, are free to choose too.
So, if this is the 'reality', then what exactly is this 'good and evil nature' that you now say ALL human beings have.
Nature is what causes evil or good urge.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
And, WHY the 'trying to' blame some thing [a God] for this supposed 'good and evil nature'?
Because that is God who created evil nature. We couldn't possibly do evil if we had good nature.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
When a sound and valid explanation of what this 'good and evil nature' IS exactly, and HOW ALL human beings have obtained this so called "nature" (and whether any other animals have this "nature"), is also explained, then we will see just how much Truth is in what is expressed.
I agree.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2342
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:11 pm

seeds wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:36 pm
seeds wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:57 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
What is my question is however something else. I am asking whether good God can do evil.
seeds wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm
Okay, but first, you are going to have to provide us with an irrefutable example of a “good” God, because you certainly cannot use the Catholic God.
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:52 pm
I don't recall good God. Perhaps others can help it.
Oh come on now, bahman, if you are going to play this game, then you need to brush-up on the pantheon of humanity’s Gods.

I suggest that an example of a “good” God would perhaps be the Hindu deity Krishna.

According to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: Krishna is a major deity in Hinduism. He is worshipped as the eighth avatar of the god Vishnu and also as the supreme God in his own right. He is the god of compassion, tenderness, and love in Hinduism, and is one of the most popular and widely revered among Indian divinities.
Okay then, so tell me, what form of evil could the good God Krishna do that wouldn’t immediately strip him of his “good God” status?

I ask that because, logically, if a good God can do something that is truly evil...

(such as creating and then torturing defenseless souls in hell)

...then he/she/it was never a good God to begin with.

Therefore, I guess the answer to your question is NO, a genuinely good God cannot do something that is genuinely evil without instantly forfeiting its claim to goodness.
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:48 pm
And what if God forfeits its claim to goodness. Can God do evil?
bahman, why would you ask a question to which the answer should be glaringly obvious?

Now I am not insisting that you agree with me, but can you not analyze ideas and information and then come to your own conclusions as to what the information is clearly implying?

Apparently not.

So I’ll just go ahead and spoon feed you the answer:

In the context of this highly speculative conversation we are having, then YES, a God that forfeits its claim to goodness - can do evil.
_______
I ask for the sake of clarity. I knew the answer but I wanted to become sure that we are in the same page.

Now the only question which is left is whether a good God can forfeit good? I mean whether God is like creatures or not. We have both natures and can forfeit evil or good. Some people define God as goodness, who only have good nature. Can God forfeits good knowing the fact that God's nature is good?

Age
Posts: 3147
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:43 am

Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:04 am
Okay great. Now, What exactly was MY definition?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 am
I'll quote you.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:04 am
If I did BELIEVE that it is true, then I would NOT be open to fact that it may not be true nor would I be OPEN to any evidence provided that shows that it is not actually true at all.
Besides the FACT that this is obviously NOT my definition for the word 'belief', and this is just what I said would happen IF I did BELIEVE some thing, you, however, still carried on with the rest below.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:04 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 am
Logically, what you are trying to say is that "belief" is that which is "not open to fact that it may not be true," and "would [not] be open to any evidence...that shows it is not actually true at all." In other words, you think "belief" does not attend to evidence.
You could NOT be any FURTHER FROM the truth even if you tried to be.
That's funny. Because all I did is quote you verbatim.
Are you some kind of idiot?

You may have quoted me verbatim. But it IS what you actually wrote after that, which is in contention.
You wrote:
"what you are trying to say is ..."

And I am telling you that that is NOT what I am "trying to say" at all.

Can you comprehend this?

Do you understand this fact?

See, what happened is you ASSUMED what it IS, that I was trying to say, and I have been saying that what you ASSUMED that I was saying and meaning is totally WRONG. It is just this simple. You ASSUMED and now BELIEVE that you know what MY definition for the word 'belief' IS, when in fact you could NOT be any further from the truth.

The Truth IS that what I wrote, and which you quoted verbatim, IS NOTHING like what you have ASSUMED I was saying and meaning as a definition for the word 'belief'. Comprehend?

And, ONLY when you ask me for clarification will you EVER KNOW what I MY definition for the word 'belief' IS. Understand?

I was saying and meaning one thing, you misconstrued what I was saying and meaning, and then ASSUMED some thing completely different, and WRONG.
You then proceeded FROM your OWN assumption, which is completely WRONG anyway.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm
So if anybody's "wrong," it's the author of the quotation. And evidence was provided...solid evidence from a real dictionary, showing alternate readings of the world "believe."
You are so stuck in your BELIEF that you can NOT see that your "evidence" was only to YOUR ASSUMPTION.

Until you get back on track and see and realize what took place here, then you are only going to get going further down that drain you talk about.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm
But it seems no amount of evidence will persuade you.
You have things so twisted that you are failing to see the Truth of things now.

What "evidence" do you think will "persuade" me of what exactly?

Although you obviously can not yet SEE what has taken place here, maybe if you at least just TRY to consider some thing other than what you ASSUME and BELIEVE is the case here, you might not remain so STUCK.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm
EVERY time I get some thing WRONG, it is ALWAYS because of ME.
I can't help but agree. By definition if YOU get something wrong, it simply has to be "because of [YOU]." After all, it's "you" who are the only actor in such a sentence. And, by definition, the same would be true of anyone.
The 'I' that gets things wrong is from the perspective of "another one", and NOT from me. So, when I said: EVERY time I get some thing WRONG, then that is from "another's" perspective.

It is NOT because I have not necessarily got some thing WRONG, but because "another" thinks or believes that I have got some thing WRONG.

Are you able to see and comprehend the difference?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm
Nothing could be more certain.
Are you SURE 'nothing' could be more certain?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm
But I fear we are indeed circling the drain. You have your view, you "believe" it (in your own very contrived sense of "believe") and you will not be moved by evidence, it seems, just as you defined it as being, in such cases.
But I do NOT believe 'it' (whatever the 'it' is). As I have pointed out and SHOWN.

The reason I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing is because then I would NOT be open.

Unfortunately you are not yet able to comprehend and understand this very FACT.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm
So no more is to be said, I guess. So be well, and I suppose you will "believe" as you please. :wink:
If you want to finish now, then just to be make it clear.

I neither BELIEVE nor DISBELIEVE any thing.

And, all you have done is just make an ASSUMPTION about what you BELIEVE is the definition I have for the word 'belief'.

Your ASSUMPTION is obviously completely WRONG, and therefore just about every thing else you have said is WRONG also.

I suggest that instead of beginning your statements like: "What you are trying to say is ...", which obviously could be WRONG, and WAS completely and utterly WRONG in this circumstance, then you just asking clarifying questions to obtain what the real and actual Truth is, in regards to what they were ACTUALLY SAYING.

If you did this instead, then you would NOT have made the completely obviously WRONG and STUPID remarks that you have now.

To make it more clear; My definition of the word 'belief' is NOTHING like what you ASSUMED it is, and have portrayed it is here. As I said earlier: You could NOT be further from the truth even if you tried to be.

If you did NOT make an ASSUMPTION to begin with and STOPPED believing that you are right, and instead remained OPEN, then you would NOT have make the STUPID mistakes that you have been making here.

Making up your OWN ASSUMPTION without ever verifying that it is right, and then arguing against your OWN ASSUMPTION is NOT the wisest thing to do. Doing this in words on a public forum, instead of all just within your own self, some might say it is ever MORE stupid. But at least you have provided another great example of just how the brain can so easily make mistakes by 'trying to' twist things around to suit its own BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

Age
Posts: 3147
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:52 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:18 pm
Age wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:30 pm


What an incredible statement.

You know this as a fact, how?

Regards
DL
Because I KNOW what 'God' IS.
Know indicates certainty.
Agree.
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:18 pm
How are you be certain that a supernatural God even exists?
Firstly It is NOT a "supernatural" God. IF It was, then It could NOT exist.

I KNOW that God exists because of the definition I have for God, which makes FULL sense as it fits in with the other definitions that I have.
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:18 pm
What is your proof of concept?
By having a concept that is provable.
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:18 pm
Have you not heard that all the gods are just man made constructs?

Regards
DL
Yes I have heard this saying. I have also heard of the saying that " 'we', human beings, need money to live", but just like some other sayings as well they are NOT expressing what is true, NOR are they expressing what is even real.

If you BELIEVE the saying, " 'gods' are just man made constructs" is true and real, then that MUST be what is true and real, to you.

If you WANT to continue BELIEVING that, then go right ahead. I am NOT here to try to convince otherwise.

Age
Posts: 3147
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:57 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:25 pm
Age wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:31 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm


We do have to do what some will see as evil to survive.
If you want to make a statement, claim it to be true like you have done here, and want it accepted and understood, then you have to give some examples, and then wait for clarifying questions.

Why do only 'some' see what 'you' do, to survive, as evil?
What do the "others" see?
What examples of 'evil' are you talking about here?
And, what does 'evil' actually mean, to you?

Until you start explaining, then your statement is clearly wrong and false, to me.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
That is rather a long story.
If it is worth sharing, then the earlier you start then the better.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Can you help but do evil?
I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
WHAT are you talking about here?

WHAT is THIS about, and what is it in relation to exactly?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
Who cares what people who you label and call "christians" "are always trying to absolve"? If you want thee Truth, then stick to what you SEE and KNOW.

By the way WHO do you put the blame on for what 'you', human beings, do?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.
Let us start by you clearly explaining WHAT 'human nature' IS exactly?

Then you explaining HOW God is culpable? Do you even think God is real?

Do you even think human beings have 'free will'?

Just maybe, as I stated earlier, it is 'you', and YOUR BELIEFS, that is STOPPING you from SEEING the actual Truth of things here.

How about you state your BELIEFS first, then it will become CLEAR to every one reading this WHY "it is so hard" for you to chat with "others" about these type of things?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Free will is only the ability to choose.
I agree. Are you saying that human beings do not have the ability to choose?

It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action).
Was that even being questioned?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place.
Okay if you say so. So, why do we not LOOK AT this?

Again, what do 'you' propose is the 'nature' given to human beings by God?

The story of adam and eve can be simply explained, very easily. That is; to those who are OPEN to hearing and listening to it.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
Okay. So you have concluded that God is capable. I say God is responsible for EVERY thing. So, now what do we do?

Do you want to keep following your own thoughts, assumptions and beliefs? Or, do you want to LISTEN to other perspectives of things?

If God is FULLY culpable, and thus also FULLY responsible, and God being omnipotent and ALL-knowing, then maybe just LISTENING to some thing else other than your own ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS, then you WILL learn HOW every thing can be corrected and put back onto the right path?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant.
WHY is this necessarily so?

If the logic to argue this is sound and valid, then, If all do good by nature, then the good nature is dominant.

Your logic and argument does not work.

By the way it could very easily be argued that ALL do good, but only some do evil/sin/bad.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil?
Yes.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I do not see how. Do you?
Yes.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons.
If you are at all interested I agree with ALL the truth in every thing and disagree with ALL the falsehoods in every thing.

Also what IS a 'gnostic christian naturalist' exactly?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s.
Okay. So now we will have to LOOK AT the above from another perspective.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.
Okay, if you say so. But how about 'free will' is just some thing human beings have?

By the way, to me, human beings having a 'free will' nature is completely equal to human beings also having a 'deterministic' nature. Both 'free will' and 'determined' are just naturally within human beings. This is just how they have evolved in creation.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.
Just about ALL that has been written to explain 'evil' and 'sin' is a misconstrued version of thee Truth of things.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil.
Perfect.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
Okay. For interest sake I just call this 'bad', compared to 'wrong'. To me, intending to hurt or harm is 'bad', while unintentionally doing hurt or harm is 'wrong'.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
'

Agreed. We can do one OR the other.

We do what we WANT and CHOOSE to do.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.
'

Or, some one might be, or is 'trying to' be, cooperating with "others", while ALL of the "others" just are, or are 'trying to' be, competing with that one?

NOT EVERY one has to be doing what EVERY one ELSE is doing.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
Why?

How is competing, or in your words "doing evil", keeping us from extinction. On first glance, to me, this seems absurd and a contradiction of terms.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
So, to you, "We would likely go extinct without competition and evil".

Now, this is probably the biggest example of an attempt at 'trying to' "justify" one's obviously wrong and bad or evil behaviors that I have ever seen and heard.

The logic that was used to reason out, which led to this conclusion would make great reading. Would you like to share the logic and reasoning you used to arrive at such a conclusion?

But first let us just hear again what one human being uses as a "justification" for ALL human beings to just keep on doing evil: "We would likely go extinct without competition and evil. In other words: If you do not keep on competing with "others" and doing evil, then we would likely go extinct".

Do you pass on this "justified" piece of advice directly like this to the children you know?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
But I am NOT a believer in any thing other than; thee Real and True Self, which is able to accomplish any thing that It sets out to do.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct.
Is there any difference between 'God' and 'Nature'?

What I SEE is; without evolution 'we', human beings, would not be HERE-NOW. But this is NOT to say; without evolution 'we', human beings, can STILL go extinct.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
We must do good and evil.
If you say we MUST do good and evil, then we MUST continue to do good AND 'evil'. Thank you for this "worldly and wise" piece of advice. I will use it as a "justification" EVERY time from now on for ALL the 'evil' I MUST continue to do.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue.
Nor on any other issue that I can SEE and have observed either. I agree there is NO conflict between Nature AND God on any thing.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
This is how things are and should be.
Is there any possibility that this is NOT how things are and should be on ALL of what you have written above? Or, are you just incapable of being wrong any where?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
To 'WHAT' competition.

I do NOT SEE that there HAS TO be competition ANY where. I have certainly NOT observed ANY reason for WHY there is competition nor a NEED for competition also. However, in saying that, I do observe adult human beings continuously competing, which is obviously leading tremendously to their downfall.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new ... 66/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
But there IS original 'sin'.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive.
As I have said previously; Human beings will 'try' absolutely any thing to align things with their ALREADY HELD BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS, and to 'try to' "justify" their wrong doings.

This here is another great example of the type of misbehavior used by the human being animal.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Our default position is to cooperate or to do good.
So WHY do 'you' NOT stay on your default position, instead of deviating away from it?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil?
No. I can always only do good and NOT do evil.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I do not see how.
Okay. This might be because you LOOK AT things from your own assumptions and beliefs, and therefore you are NOT fully OPEN.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Do you?
Yes. It is very easy to SEE how to NOT do evil. But there are some other things that you need to learn and know first.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
Who is distorted or twisted enough to think or believe that God is punishing them anyway?
[/quote]

As per your request.

This older O.P. was written for a religious answer. It answers many of your questions.

-----------

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new ... 66/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
[/quote]

I have answered these questions ALREADY.

Age
Posts: 3147
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:58 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:34 pm
Age wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:31 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:06 pm


Yes. Always. I would outlaw the opposite computer. That is the natural choice for any human male.
If he is a real man that is.

If I had to make a rule for a computer that insures the best end for all humans, I would say that the first computer law is such that the computer always puts women and children first and kills more men to save women and children. All a computer is is a counting machine so it has to go by the numbers.

If you think in demographic terms as well, it is the scientifically sound thing to do.

Regards
DL
Why NOT just put children first ONLY.

IF ALL adults were wiped out, and ONLY children left, who had NOT been harmed and damaged to much by adults already, then living on earth would be a much more happier, peaceful, and successful existence, than it is right now.
Why NOT just put children first ONLY.

Baby needs a tit, man is the first line of defence for family and friends, followed by women. Anything else is un-natural.

Regards
DL
You seem to have MISSED the mark, as this was NOT my point at all.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 6026
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:45 am

Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:43 am
Besides the FACT that this is obviously NOT my definition for the word 'belief',
Not "obviously." They were exactly your words, and your explanation of "belief."

Okay. Now since you seem to have changed you mind, I don't mind if you tell me what you DO now think a "belief" is. Let's hear it.

Age
Posts: 3147
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am

bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

Yes, and that it the problem when they decide to sin according to Cristian.
From the definition I have for the word 'sin' it is completely impossible to choose to 'sin'. It would be completely contradictory to decide to 'sin'.
What is your definition of sin?
Missing the mark.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
But I do SEE a lot of things differently than most people do.
What are those things?
God, heaven, hell, sin, in the beginning, creation, garden of eden, apocalypse, just to start with.

Most people are unable to define these things in a way that makes sense.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Also, WHY is it that when people decide to 'sin', then that is a problem according to 'christians'?
Because simply God wants them. I am not aware of any purpose to justify why God wants them.
What do you propose that this God thing wants people for what exactly?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
What 'problems' do 'christians' see?
To go against what God prohibited, sin.
Again, what does God prohibit?

How are you defining the word 'sin'?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

By Catholic, Muslim, ..., God.
Besides God is NOT a person. Who do these people think they are, to decide what is allowed and what is not allowed?
According to what people say that is God who has ultimate authority, therefore, God is allowed to give a set of rules to us to act accordingly otherwise you might be held in Hell, Fire for example, for eternity.
But God already has and always IS giving the "set of rules", which is just one rule.

When how this is done and how the one rule works, then also living in hell or heaven will also be understood.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Where do these people think that they obtained their understanding of what is right and what is wrong from?
From God, either directly or indirectly.
So the exact same place EVERY person gains their knowledge of what is right and what is wrong, correct?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
And what makes where they got it from RIGHT?
They believe so.
But those people are completely incapable of explaining what this 'God' thing is exactly.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
I say this, KNOWING that they could only provide answers that would be contradicting their own selves and the very thing that they are saying is not allowed.
Probably.
This is the same as how you also are unable to provide answers without contradicting your own self.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

Sin is what is prohibited by God.
That is one definition, so now, what is actually prohibited by God?
Killing for example.
How do you KNOW this?

What is 'God' to you?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
People have different views on what Hell is, some say that it is a state of torturing others say that it is a state of lack of God.
And what do 'you' say it is?
Hell could be a very pleasant place for people who like it, like masochists who enjoy pain.
Are you talking here on earth or in some other place?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Just to make it clear, if and when I ask a person directly how a word is defined, I would like to KNOW how 'they' define that word. I usually only ask a person directly to define a word that 'they' themselves are using, so that is WHY I want to KNOW 'their' definition for that word.
They believe in objective morality, what God says is good.
So, I just explained that when I ask A PERSON directly how a word is defined, ...

Your first word in reply is 'THEY', and then go on to explain what 'THEY' believe ....

Obviously you are completely 'missing the mark', once again.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
What 'hell' is, and WHY it is a state of torture and/or a state without God, plus a multitude of other things can ALL be explained fully, in a very simple and easy to understand logical and reasonable way, which can be tested for validity and soundness, and when doing so the Truth and Reality of things come to light to also.
Can you provide your tests?
Yes.

But if you noticed what I wrote, I said that WHEN what 'hell' is and why 'hell' IS the way it is, from the definition you gave for the word 'hell', is explained and understood in a logical and reasonable way, THEN the validity and soundness of what is explained can be tested, seen, and then whether it stacks up or not can be seen and understood.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

There is no definition for evil. We just categorize our actions into good and evil. An example of evil action is killing.
So, what you are really asking is; Where is the origin of 'some thing' that there is no definition for?
I think that one cannot defend objective morality unless s/he defines good and evil.
But remember it was YOU just NOW who stated: There is NO definition for evil. So, how could any person define what, to you, there is NO definition for?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
I don't understand why stress in the existence of objective morality.
I do not really understand what you are suggesting here.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

Okay. How did it start?
Considering you did not give a definition for the word 'evil', then it makes it somewhat harder to explain to you when 'some thing' with no definition began, HOWEVER, let me say that doing 'evil' is just doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good'.
Your definition is circular unless you can define good and wrong.
Well explaining 'what is right' and 'what is wrong' is very easy to do. But for this explanation to be understood one needs to be OPEN to the fact that there just might be an objective morality.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Now, when human beings began doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good' is when they did the opposite of 'what they knew was good'. When human beings started 'doing wrong' is when 'evil' began.
Of course.
Great, so you agree with this.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
There is a story about how this began. A woman KNEW that 'it was wrong' to do some thing, 'like touch and eat some thing that was KNOWN not to be touched or eaten, yet still went ahead and did it. Since then adult human beings have been continually 'doing wrong' or 'doing what they KNOW they are not meant to', or just 'doing the opposite of what they KNOW is the right thing to do'.
Are you talking about Adam and Eve?
I am talking about a story, which has been around for some time, which has characters in it called "adam" and "eve".
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Where is your resource?
Have you not heard of this story before? Your response about adam and eve suggests otherwise.

If you have heard of this story, then that is thee resource.

What are you resources? I think you might find that most of them come from 'stories' also.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
I mean, what is your religion?
I have absolutely NO religion, except in the BELIEF in one's Self, and Its ability to achieve what It sets out to do.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

I already give one example of evil.
Giving an example of 'evil' is NOT defining what the word 'evil' actually means.
I know, but that is all we can do.
When replying to my clarifying questions asked directly to you, in relation to what YOU write, then it helps us both much better if you reply for YOU only, and do NOT 'try to' speak for "others" as well. Because what 'we', you and I, CAN do is NOT always what you think and believe.

What I CAN do, you will have to wait and see.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
There is no definition for evil. I already provided my objection to your definition.
And what exactly is MY definition?

And where did I provide that definition?

Your honest answers would be most welcomed and appreciated.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Are you aware that you are KILLING every day? Or, that you are even allowing the KILLING of human beings EVERY day?
I cannot understand your question.
Either you are aware of some thing or you are not. So, which one is it? It is that simple.

Also, if some one is really interested in understanding, then they usually ask clarifying questions to gain an understanding. I found that this asking clarifying questions CAN BE the quickest, simplest, and easiest way to gain a True understanding of things.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Are you an 'evil' person for doing so?
Yes, by definition I am an evil person if I kill a person. By my understanding, an evil act can be right (what we should do) or wrong (what we should avoid).
Correct me if I read you wrong but did you just say here; That protecting children, for example, (what we should do) can be an 'evil' act?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
If a person has the correct and proper definitions for the words they are using, PRIOR to using those words, like they KNOW what they are talking about, then this helps them in being better understood and being fully understood.
I am aware of that and I agree.
So, WHY do you use words like 'evil' if you are completely and utterly incapable of defining them at all?

As well use words like, 'God, 'heaven', 'hell, et ceteral
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

There are murderers. Look at history of humans to see the many cases of wars.
So, you say humans have an 'evil' nature. When you say this do you mean ALL human beings or only some?
We all have evil nature to some extent some are weak and some are strong.
What are you trying to say here?

Some are weak, and, some are strong in relation to WHAT exactly?

Also, either ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature to all extent, or they do not. There can not be some humans have an 'evil' nature "to some extent", while "others" have an 'evil' nature "to another extent".

Either ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature or they do not.

Now, which one is it?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
If you say only some, then do you REALLY BELIEVE that a thing called God would only created SOME human beings with this so called 'evil' "nature"?
If you believe that good God created human and human has evil nature then it follows that God created evil.
You missed the mark, and the point, once again. Your reply here has nothing to do with what I said in the quote.

However, if you want to state what you have here, then;
1. I do not believe any such thing that you have said here, so any statement that begins with "If you believe [and what you then said] is a completely moot point.
2. You are stuck on the terms 'good God' and an 'evil nature'. You state, that "There is NO definition for evil", yet you continue to insist that human beings have an 'evil' nature.
3. If human beings do, so called, 'evil' or wrong things, then that in no way infers that ANY God created evil. God, however, may have created life to evolve into a so called "human being", which God KNEW would eventually do 'evil' or wrong things anyway, for a very specific and simple reason that could be explained very easily.

So, ANY God creating a species, which is FREE to choose whether to do what they call 'evil' things or not, does NOT then follow that that God created evil.

bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
To me this is really a rather ridiculous thing to even suggest that the "nature" of a species is only given to SOME of that species.
True. As I said we all have evil nature to some extend.
Now define what you mean by 'to some extent'?

How can ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature, to some extent?

To what 'extent' are you actually referring to, and what are you basing this 'extent' relative to exactly?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
You are also falling to that very common flaw of the adult human being of classing some people as some thing, like "murderers", as though this is only what they do.
What do you mean?
When 'you', human beings, call one of 'you' some thing like; a "murder", or ANY other of the labels that get used, then that subliminally infers that that is all they are are, and thus all they do.

It is a way to "justify" one's self WHY 'they' are not like 'me' and not one of 'us'.

The trouble 'you', human beings, have is defining things accurately and properly, so that the Truth of things can be SEEN and fully understood.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Now, either ALL human beings have a 'nature', which is 'evil' or they ALL do not. Or, they ALL have a 'nature', which is good, or they ALL do not have this 'nature'. So, which is it to you?
All have evil nature to some extent.
Okay. Now please explain;

HOW you KNOW this?

Where the 'evil' nature actually came from?

What and how this nature affects and controls 'you'?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Obviously there can NOT be a 'human nature' as it is called, but only SOME human beings get it and have it.
What do you mean?
I was just following the same line of thought of IF you were thinking one way. But you HAVE ALREADY explained that, to you, ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature, "to some extent".

What I WAS meaning was that because I was still unsure IF you were saying ALL human beings had 'evil' nature, or just some had it, and while I was awaiting your answer, then I was just saying what was obviously not possible.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Evil is a part of our nature.
Is that an irrefutable FACT, or just some thing that you think or believe is true?

What else do you say is "human nature"?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
To me, from what I have observed is, ALL adult human beings do what is right AS WELL AS do what is wrong. To me, the nature of human beings, which separates them from ALL other animals species, is ALL human beings have the ability to learn, understand, and reason (any and every thing). No other animal has this ability or nature.
True. But shouldn't we always avoid doing the wrong things given the fact that we are intelligent agents?
But it is people just like you who when keep insisting that there is NO definition of 'evil', nor can 'what is right' and 'what is wrong' be known, as well as when insisting that there is NO 'moral objectivity' are the ones who are SHOWING that it is NEVER possible to KNOW what 'should' be avoided or 'should not' ever be avoided.

I say 'we', human beings, should NOT do the wrong things, but 'we' have to first AGREE to 'what is wrong' and 'what is right'.

Do 'you' have any idea or clue about 'what is actually right' and 'what is actually wrong'?

If yes, then please provide them.
If, however, you have no idea nor clue, then WHY ask the question, "Shouldn't we always avoid doing the wrong things given the fact that we are intelligent species?"

Also, on this point of supposedly being an "intelligent species" also, A truly intelligent species would ALREADY actually KNOW 'what is right' AND 'what is wrong', correct?
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

Ok, I am waiting for you now.
Okay, just let me know if there is more that you would like from me.
Your definition of evil is incomplete unless you provide a definition for wrong and good.
Have I provided a definition for 'evil'? If yes, then what was it?

Also, you were the one suggesting that you should always avoid doing wrong. If this is what you were suggesting, then what do you propose is 'right' and 'wrong'.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm
The reality is that each person has good and evil nature. Whether we do good and evil is situational. We, of course, are free to choose too.
So, if this is the 'reality', then what exactly is this 'good and evil nature' that you now say ALL human beings have.
Nature is what causes evil or good urge.
So, what is 'evil' and what is 'good', which you say nature urges you to do?

Also, why would 'Nature', Itself, urge 'you' to do some thing that you class as 'evil'?

I would suggest that 'Nature' would only urge 'you' to do 'that' what is good and right for 'you', and ALL things equally.

WHY would, and HOW could, Nature urge 'you' to do some thing 'evil', which would obviously go against Nature, Itself?

It appears that when you 'try to' start defining what you think is true and right, you are leading yourself into contradicting your own self here.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
And, WHY the 'trying to' blame some thing [a God] for this supposed 'good and evil nature'?
Because that is God who created evil nature. We couldn't possibly do evil if we had good nature.
So are you now saying that you only have 'evil' nature and NO 'good' nature at all?

This is how it appears so now.
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
When a sound and valid explanation of what this 'good and evil nature' IS exactly, and HOW ALL human beings have obtained this so called "nature" (and whether any other animals have this "nature"), is also explained, then we will see just how much Truth is in what is expressed.
I agree.
So, would you like to start explaining, with sound and valid explanations, what it is that you are 'trying to' say and get at here?

You started a thread, with a question, which is obviously fishing or trolling for some thing. So, what is it that you are exactly wanting and 'trying to' do here?

Would you like to find "others" and SHOW where they are WRONG? Or,

Would you like to just say what it is that you think and/or believe is true?

Or, is there some thing else that you would like to achieve in this thread.

We have already informed you that God, including a so called "good" God, CAN do any thing. So, what is it that you are REALLY after.

By the way, WHY are you using the label "good" God, when it is you who is completely incapable of defining the word "good" anyway here?

Age
Posts: 3147
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:51 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:45 am
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:43 am
Besides the FACT that this is obviously NOT my definition for the word 'belief',
Not "obviously." They were exactly your words, and your explanation of "belief."
Where EXACTLY is MY explanation of 'belief'?

You would be unaware but what I wanted to do was just illustrate, by SHOWING, how people ASSUME and BELIEVE things, which are NOT even there.

I NEVER even provided an "explanation" NOR a "definition" for the word 'belief'. Yet here you were saying that you KNOW what MY definition for the word 'belief' is, and that "I was WRONG".
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:45 am
Okay. Now since you seem to have changed you mind, I don't mind if you tell me what you DO now think a "belief" is. Let's hear it.
Do you think you really get out of this this easily?

I NEVER, what you call, "changed my mind", at all. For two reasons;

I do NOT have a mind. And,
I NEVER even gave an "explanation" nor a "definition" for the word 'belief' in the first place, to now change.

I have just said what I have said, which can be very easily read, which your words can also be very easily read.
I said:
Because I can have a view of some thing, without having to believe that it is true.

If I did BELIEVE that it is true, then I would NOT be open to fact that it may not be true nor would I be OPEN to any evidence provided that shows that it is not actually true at all.


You said:
Oh. I see. You've defined "belief" as "dogmatic belief in something, contrary to all evidence," or something close to that wording, no?

(See, this is WHERE you started to make up the ASSUMPTION that you did. Notice, I NEVER defined 'belief' anywhere?)

I then said:
Even if ALL the evidence in the Universe points to the fact that 'I' exist, for example, then I still do NOT 'have to' BELIEVE it is true nor right. I do not BELIEVE any thing for the reasons I gave above.

I, however, can express a view AND remain OPEN. But I can not express a BELIEF and remain OPEN as well.


You then said:
Well, I think you'll find that's a very narrow definition of "belief," compared to any ordinary dictionary, but you can do that for your own purposes, I suppose... .

Besides you seeing things that are NOT even there, that is; MY definition, your ASSUMPTION, which you made up all by yourself, about what MY definition of the word 'belief' was, was so out of context and so plainly WRONG that it was laughable to watch you continue on. What makes this even more entertaining and amusing is that you are now 'trying to' blame me for "changing".

Only now you asking me for what MY definition of the word 'belief' is.

But now that you have asked me, so now I shall provide;

A 'belief', to me, is just an acceptance that some thing exists or is true. This is the more general accepted understanding of what the word 'belief' means. But my deeper meaning and a more specific definition for the word 'belief' is found when my clarifying question is answered openly and honestly;
Would you believe in some thing if it was not true, not right, and/or not correct?

If what you 'believe' could ONLY be true, right, and/or correct, then that is what I call a 'belief'. That is; an already fixed and closed position on the Truth, Rightness, and/or Correctness of some thing.

If, however, what you 'believe' could be false, wrong, and/or incorrect, then I would ask you:
WHY 'believe' it then?


By the way, your words:
I don't mind if you tell me what you DO now think a "belief" is. Let's hear it.

SHOWS CLEARLY the absolute arrogance AND ignorance that you have SHOWN throughout our discussion here.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 6026
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:03 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:51 am
Where EXACTLY is MY explanation of 'belief'?
It read as follows, word-for word.


Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:19 am
If I did BELIEVE that it is true, then I would NOT be open to fact that it may not be true nor would I be OPEN to any evidence provided that shows that it is not actually true at all.


Now, you can set the record straight by explaining why you no longer believe what you said, or you can go on pretending you didn't say it, and see if anybody -- even you -- will eventually believe that.

So you wrote:
A 'belief', to me, is just an acceptance that some thing exists or is true. This is the more general accepted understanding of what the word 'belief' means.
That is not the same as what you wrote above, obviously. Anybody with two eyes can see you've dropped the "I would NOT be open..." and "nor would I be OPEN" criteria.

So now you've changed your own explanation, by taking out the bit that was dead wrong. In other words, your revision amounts to a confession that you made an imprecise use of words in the first case, and said something you don't actually believe about "belief." Fine.

Now a side note:

I think, "Age," that you've misunderstood what we do here. This is a philosophy-discussion website. It's not a place where people go to make unchallenged claims, but a place where they go to test their ideas against the questions others raise about them. When you say something on a philosophy website, you ought to expect to be asked about the particulars of what you mean, and to have your idea tested with reasoning. It's not personal -- it's about us all getting better at sharpening our ideas. And you'll find that all the most intelligent interlocutors here understand that, though there are also a few immature souls here, who seem to think it's just a forum for floating ideas that never get tested, or for firing off "zingers" at each other.

Now, if you find it offensive to be questioned, and if you then feel inclined to burst out into all sorts of ad hominem remarks, it betrays a certain lack of understanding of what we're doing. (And, of course, it's also very boring, but let that pass.) So you might want to take a better angle from here on in.

Let's try again. If you want to amend your earlier explanation (as given verbatim in the first quotation above) I'm open to hearing about that. If you want to say you never said it, well, you be the judge of how likely that explanation is to pass by anybody. However, none of it has to do with you personally. If you're here, you're here to test your ideas, not to get testy about your ideas.

Fair enough?

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2342
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:40 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am

From the definition I have for the word 'sin' it is completely impossible to choose to 'sin'. It would be completely contradictory to decide to 'sin'.
What is your definition of sin?
Missing the mark.
What do you mean? So missing the mark is definition of sin?
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
But I do SEE a lot of things differently than most people do.
What are those things?
God, heaven, hell, sin, in the beginning, creation, garden of eden, apocalypse, just to start with.

Most people are unable to define these things in a way that makes sense.
Ok.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Also, WHY is it that when people decide to 'sin', then that is a problem according to 'christians'?
Because simply God wants them. I am not aware of any purpose to justify why God wants them.
What do you propose that this God thing wants people for what exactly?
No one know God's purpose.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
What 'problems' do 'christians' see?
To go against what God prohibited, sin.
Again, what does God prohibit?
A set of commandments, don't kill for example.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
How are you defining the word 'sin'?
I already did. What God prohibit.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Besides God is NOT a person. Who do these people think they are, to decide what is allowed and what is not allowed?
According to what people say that is God who has ultimate authority, therefore, God is allowed to give a set of rules to us to act accordingly otherwise you might be held in Hell, Fire for example, for eternity.
But God already has and always IS giving the "set of rules", which is just one rule.

When how this is done and how the one rule works, then also living in hell or heaven will also be understood.
So what is your understanding of Heaven and Hell?
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Where do these people think that they obtained their understanding of what is right and what is wrong from?
From God, either directly or indirectly.
So the exact same place EVERY person gains their knowledge of what is right and what is wrong, correct?
We don't gain knowledge of why something is wrong or right. We just gain knowledge of what is wrong or right.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
And what makes where they got it from RIGHT?
They believe so.
But those people are completely incapable of explaining what this 'God' thing is exactly.
What it is?
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
That is one definition, so now, what is actually prohibited by God?
Killing for example.
How do you KNOW this?
It a one commandment. Have you ever hear of ten commandments?
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
What is 'God' to you?
The creator. If there is any.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
And what do 'you' say it is?
Hell could be a very pleasant place for people who like it, like masochists who enjoy pain.
Are you talking here on earth or in some other place?
Here.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Just to make it clear, if and when I ask a person directly how a word is defined, I would like to KNOW how 'they' define that word. I usually only ask a person directly to define a word that 'they' themselves are using, so that is WHY I want to KNOW 'their' definition for that word.
They believe in objective morality, what God says is good.
So, I just explained that when I ask A PERSON directly how a word is defined, ...

Your first word in reply is 'THEY', and then go on to explain what 'THEY' believe ....

Obviously you are completely 'missing the mark', once again.
I am not missing anything.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
So, what you are really asking is; Where is the origin of 'some thing' that there is no definition for?
I think that one cannot defend objective morality unless s/he defines good and evil.
But remember it was YOU just NOW who stated: There is NO definition for evil. So, how could any person define what, to you, there is NO definition for?
There is no definition for evil. Yes. They can give an example of what they cannot define. What is an example of evil? Killing.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
I don't understand why stress in the existence of objective morality.
I do not really understand what you are suggesting here.
I mean why they persist that they have a proof for objective morality when they cannot define what is definition of good
and evil.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Considering you did not give a definition for the word 'evil', then it makes it somewhat harder to explain to you when 'some thing' with no definition began, HOWEVER, let me say that doing 'evil' is just doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good'.
Your definition is circular unless you can define good and wrong.
Well explaining 'what is right' and 'what is wrong' is very easy to do. But for this explanation to be understood one needs to be OPEN to the fact that there just might be an objective morality.
Tell me what is good?
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Now, when human beings began doing 'what is wrong' or 'not good' is when they did the opposite of 'what they knew was good'. When human beings started 'doing wrong' is when 'evil' began.
Of course.
Great, so you agree with this.
Yes.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
There is a story about how this began. A woman KNEW that 'it was wrong' to do some thing, 'like touch and eat some thing that was KNOWN not to be touched or eaten, yet still went ahead and did it. Since then adult human beings have been continually 'doing wrong' or 'doing what they KNOW they are not meant to', or just 'doing the opposite of what they KNOW is the right thing to do'.
Are you talking about Adam and Eve?
I am talking about a story, which has been around for some time, which has characters in it called "adam" and "eve".
Ok. Do you believe in that story?
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Where is your resource?
Have you not heard of this story before? Your response about adam and eve suggests otherwise.

If you have heard of this story, then that is thee resource.

What are you resources? I think you might find that most of them come from 'stories' also.
Bible and Quran at least.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
I mean, what is your religion?
I have absolutely NO religion, except in the BELIEF in one's Self, and Its ability to achieve what It sets out to do.
Ok.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Giving an example of 'evil' is NOT defining what the word 'evil' actually means.
I know, but that is all we can do.
When replying to my clarifying questions asked directly to you, in relation to what YOU write, then it helps us both much better if you reply for YOU only, and do NOT 'try to' speak for "others" as well. Because what 'we', you and I, CAN do is NOT always what you think and believe.

What I CAN do, you will have to wait and see.
Ok.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
There is no definition for evil. I already provided my objection to your definition.
And what exactly is MY definition?

And where did I provide that definition?

Your honest answers would be most welcomed and appreciated.
You said that evil is opposite of good. Or something like that.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Are you an 'evil' person for doing so?
Yes, by definition I am an evil person if I kill a person. By my understanding, an evil act can be right (what we should do) or wrong (what we should avoid).
Correct me if I read you wrong but did you just say here; That protecting children, for example, (what we should do) can be an 'evil' act?
No, protecting children is a good act.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
If a person has the correct and proper definitions for the words they are using, PRIOR to using those words, like they KNOW what they are talking about, then this helps them in being better understood and being fully understood.
I am aware of that and I agree.
So, WHY do you use words like 'evil' if you are completely and utterly incapable of defining them at all?

As well use words like, 'God, 'heaven', 'hell, et ceteral
I just don't know the definition of evil but I can give an example of it.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
So, you say humans have an 'evil' nature. When you say this do you mean ALL human beings or only some?
We all have evil nature to some extent some are weak and some are strong.
What are you trying to say here?

Some are weak, and, some are strong in relation to WHAT exactly?
Strong and weak evilness.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
Also, either ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature to all extent, or they do not. There can not be some humans have an 'evil' nature "to some extent", while "others" have an 'evil' nature "to another extent".

Either ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature or they do not.

Now, which one is it?
All human have evil nature to some extent.
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:19 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
If you say only some, then do you REALLY BELIEVE that a thing called God would only created SOME human beings with this so called 'evil' "nature"?
If you believe that good God created human and human has evil nature then it follows that God created evil.
You missed the mark, and the point, once again. Your reply here has nothing to do with what I said in the quote.
I don't think so.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
However, if you want to state what you have here, then;
1. I do not believe any such thing that you have said here, so any statement that begins with "If you believe [and what you then said] is a completely moot point.
I don't think so.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
2. You are stuck on the terms 'good God' and an 'evil nature'. You state, that "There is NO definition for evil", yet you continue to insist that human beings have an 'evil' nature.
I gave you an example of good and evil and that is enough.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
3. If human beings do, so called, 'evil' or wrong things, then that in no way infers that ANY God created evil. God, however, may have created life to evolve into a so called "human being", which God KNEW would eventually do 'evil' or wrong things anyway, for a very specific and simple reason that could be explained very easily.
No, if human does have evil nature then God is repsonsible for creation of human therfore reponsible for evil too.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
So, ANY God creating a species, which is FREE to choose whether to do what they call 'evil' things or not, does NOT then follow that that God created evil.
That is not what I said. I said that God is responsible for creating evil nature and not people decision.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
To me this is really a rather ridiculous thing to even suggest that the "nature" of a species is only given to SOME of that species.
True. As I said we all have evil nature to some extend.
Now define what you mean by 'to some extent'?
To the particular degree to which something is or is believed to be the case.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
How can ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature, to some extent?
We are just. That is the fact.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Now, either ALL human beings have a 'nature', which is 'evil' or they ALL do not. Or, they ALL have a 'nature', which is good, or they ALL do not have this 'nature'. So, which is it to you?
All have evil nature to some extent.
Okay. Now please explain;

HOW you KNOW this?
History.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Where the 'evil' nature actually came from?
God created it. Or it is natural thing.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
What and how this nature affects and controls 'you'?
They don't control us. They give us a senses of urge.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Obviously there can NOT be a 'human nature' as it is called, but only SOME human beings get it and have it.
What do you mean?
I was just following the same line of thought of IF you were thinking one way. But you HAVE ALREADY explained that, to you, ALL human beings have an 'evil' nature, "to some extent".

What I WAS meaning was that because I was still unsure IF you were saying ALL human beings had 'evil' nature, or just some had it, and while I was awaiting your answer, then I was just saying what was obviously not possible.
Of course there is a human nature. Of course people have good and evil nature to some extent.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Evil is a part of our nature.
Is that an irrefutable FACT, or just some thing that you think or believe is true?
It is a fact based on human history. Regardless whether all have evil nature, even one case of human with evil nature makes creation evil.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
What else do you say is "human nature"?
Human nature is also good. We are intelligent. Etc.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
To me, from what I have observed is, ALL adult human beings do what is right AS WELL AS do what is wrong. To me, the nature of human beings, which separates them from ALL other animals species, is ALL human beings have the ability to learn, understand, and reason (any and every thing). No other animal has this ability or nature.
True. But shouldn't we always avoid doing the wrong things given the fact that we are intelligent agents?
But it is people just like you who when keep insisting that there is NO definition of 'evil', nor can 'what is right' and 'what is wrong' be known, as well as when insisting that there is NO 'moral objectivity' are the ones who are SHOWING that it is NEVER possible to KNOW what 'should' be avoided or 'should not' ever be avoided.

I say 'we', human beings, should NOT do the wrong things, but 'we' have to first AGREE to 'what is wrong' and 'what is right'.

Do 'you' have any idea or clue about 'what is actually right' and 'what is actually wrong'?

If yes, then please provide them.
If, however, you have no idea nor clue, then WHY ask the question, "Shouldn't we always avoid doing the wrong things given the fact that we are intelligent species?"

Also, on this point of supposedly being an "intelligent species" also, A truly intelligent species would ALREADY actually KNOW 'what is right' AND 'what is wrong', correct?
Yes. But evil could be right and wrong depending on a situation. Wrong by definition is what we should not do. Right by definition is what we should do.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Okay, just let me know if there is more that you would like from me.
Your definition of evil is incomplete unless you provide a definition for wrong and good.
Have I provided a definition for 'evil'? If yes, then what was it?
Yes. Opposite of good.

Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Also, you were the one suggesting that you should always avoid doing wrong. If this is what you were suggesting, then what do you propose is 'right' and 'wrong'.
Right and wrong is completely situational. Killing a terrorist who is willing to kill many individuals in people eyes is right. The act of killing the any body is evil though, whether it is a terrorist or a normal human being.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
So, if this is the 'reality', then what exactly is this 'good and evil nature' that you now say ALL human beings have.
Nature is what causes evil or good urge.
So, what is 'evil' and what is 'good', which you say nature urges you to do?
I gave you example of good and evil. There is no definition for good and evil.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
Also, why would 'Nature', Itself, urge 'you' to do some thing that you class as 'evil'?
Self-protection for example.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
I would suggest that 'Nature' would only urge 'you' to do 'that' what is good and right for 'you', and ALL things equally.
Good is different from right. Good is not situation and relative whereas right is relative and situational.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
WHY would, and HOW could, Nature urge 'you' to do some thing 'evil', which would obviously go against Nature, Itself?
You might attack back a murder to save your own life. That is part of your nature. It is against another nature, good. But you do it anyway.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
It appears that when you 'try to' start defining what you think is true and right, you are leading yourself into contradicting your own self here.
I have problem defining good and evil. I don't have any problem defining right or wrong.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
And, WHY the 'trying to' blame some thing [a God] for this supposed 'good and evil nature'?
Because that is God who created evil nature. We couldn't possibly do evil if we had good nature.
So are you now saying that you only have 'evil' nature and NO 'good' nature at all?

This is how it appears so now.
We of course have good nature too. I have never said otherwise.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
When a sound and valid explanation of what this 'good and evil nature' IS exactly, and HOW ALL human beings have obtained this so called "nature" (and whether any other animals have this "nature"), is also explained, then we will see just how much Truth is in what is expressed.
I agree.
So, would you like to start explaining, with sound and valid explanations, what it is that you are 'trying to' say and get at here?
Which part? Whether good God can do evil? No good God cannot do evil because that is against God's nature. God doesn't have any urge for doing evil. Things is clear for me now.
Age wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:25 am
You started a thread, with a question, which is obviously fishing or trolling for some thing. So, what is it that you are exactly wanting and 'trying to' do here?

Would you like to find "others" and SHOW where they are WRONG? Or,

Would you like to just say what it is that you think and/or believe is true?

Or, is there some thing else that you would like to achieve in this thread.

We have already informed you that God, including a so called "good" God, CAN do any thing. So, what is it that you are REALLY after.

By the way, WHY are you using the label "good" God, when it is you who is completely incapable of defining the word "good" anyway here?
It was not clear to me that whether good God can do evil or not. Now it is clear to me.

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