EVIL!!!!!!!!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:43 am

the other weakness of your religion is that theology of Catholics (i doubt you are a Catholic - but other denominations do not have a position ya nor nay on the matter, so be default i must assume it conforms to the Catholic view - which is officially stated in caticism)

that all that never heard the good news - head hunters in New Guinea, babies to young to speak, etc - are saved from Hell be their default ignorance of Christ.

if this is so, then your God/Son of/etc is in effect an agent of death, not everlasting life.

for the second i hear of him and reject he as God/Son of - i'm damned to Hell forever.

--

whereas if He never existed, my own ignorance would have saved me from Hellfire damnation forever torment.

--

so gee thanks jesus ;-/.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:56 pm

gaffo wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:35 am
agree to dissagree on cultures power over peeples religion.
In fairness, I don't actually think there is a way to disagree, since there are so many cases that disprove the theory. But we can let it go.
when he went to Hell during the three days Christ was "Dead" -
That's an interpretation of those verses favoured by certain groups, but not by others. https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bib ... 17705.html There is scant proof for any "descent into Hell" -- one verse, really, and that interpreted by way of imagination rather than supporting facts, and contrary to the understanding of the afterlife spelled out elsewhere in Scripture. But that's a fairly substantial discussion, and the website I've suggested does it for us.
of course i was born too late - for if i reject your Gospel in this life, when i find myself "still alive" (like all those folks that lived before me and before the time of Christ) - in Hell, your Christ decended to Hell to free them, but me?

I don't think this is a correct reading of Peter's comment, as I say. So I don't think that premise is correct.
born to burn forever, that me.
Well, that's not my theology, and I don't think it's true at all. I'd look at John 3:16, Romans 10:13, John 6:37 and other verses on that point. There's no further salvation for a person whose made a poor choice in this life. As Lewis said, if at length we will not say to God 'Your will be done," then one day He says to us, 'Then your will be done.' " Yet nobody is lost without it being their will.

So "What are you willing?" is the real question.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:03 pm

gaffo wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:43 am
i doubt you are a Catholic
Indeed, I am not.
that all that never heard the good news - head hunters in New Guinea, babies to young to speak, etc - are saved from Hell be their default ignorance of Christ.
I have better explanations than that.
if this is so, then your God/Son of/etc is in effect an agent of death, not everlasting life.

for the second i hear of him and reject he as God/Son of - i'm damned to Hell forever.
As I say, I don't think that's a true premise. Head hunters in New Guinea are responsible for what they know -- and there's a fair bit they can, given Romans 1. And you and I are responsible for what we know, which is perhaps more.

However, while neither you nor I (I assume) knows any New Guinea head hunters over whom we could be sincerely concerned, we do know that we are talking right now. So your case is certainly not the case of the New Guinea head hunter. We have enough work cut out for us in being concerned for ourselves, I would say. You and I have privileges of knowledge for which we then become accountable. And fair enough -- I'd rather know my situation fully than not know it fully -- especially since it can be remedied right now.

What we are doing with what we know for sure is more important than what a speculative New Guinean is doing with what he may know. I think God can handle his case fairly. And I know He can handle ours.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:07 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:56 pm
gaffo wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:35 am
agree to dissagree on cultures power over peeples religion.
In fairness, I don't actually think there is a way to disagree, since there are so many cases that disprove the theory. But we can let it go.
when he went to Hell during the three days Christ was "Dead" -
That's an interpretation of those verses favoured by certain groups, but not by others. https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bib ... 17705.html There is scant proof for any "descent into Hell" -- one verse, really, and that interpreted by way of imagination rather than supporting facts, and contrary to the understanding of the afterlife spelled out elsewhere in Scripture. But that's a fairly substantial discussion, and the website I've suggested does it for us.
of course i was born too late - for if i reject your Gospel in this life, when i find myself "still alive" (like all those folks that lived before me and before the time of Christ) - in Hell, your Christ decended to Hell to free them, but me?

I don't think this is a correct reading of Peter's comment, as I say. So I don't think that premise is correct.
born to burn forever, that me.
Well, that's not my theology, and I don't think it's true at all. I'd look at John 3:16, Romans 10:13, John 6:37 and other verses on that point. There's no further salvation for a person whose made a poor choice in this life. As Lewis said, if at length we will not say to God 'Your will be done," then one day He says to us, 'Then your will be done.' " Yet nobody is lost without it being their will.

So "What are you willing?" is the real question.
So you reject the theology that your Christ decended to Hell preached to all that lived before your christ. ok, so all living before your Christ go to Hell forever - like me - just for being born before his time.

no Repentance from Hell.

ok, that is your theology.

fine.

now tell me how a Just god denies one from repentance from Hell

how a Just God, demands enternal punishment (or eternal reward for that matter) for actions of folks actions as mortal beings here on Earth (both good and evil)

if "The soul" is immortal, why would a Just God demand all being created by Him, to be judged for their acts here (from 1-month to 110 yrs of age - depending upon the moral beings born here on Earth) to be judged for thier actons here (when thier life here on Earth is less than 0.0000000000000000000000001 of the "life of their soul"?

well? only a petty God would view the actions of immortal souls - which he placed here for a very short time! - would then judge them and then condem/bless then forever to Heaven or Hell - for actions as mortals (which as immoral souls is a near instant of nothing!).

either your God mandates that immortal souls only have freewill while here on Earth, and so we cannot sin from Heaven, for repent from Hell - though being immoral souls just stay in either place for actions as finite living beings.

so your God removes freewill from the souls in both places, so folks in Heaven are unable to sin, and folks in Hell - like i will be fore being an Athiest - will have part of my soul removed, to make me unable to repent for my sins in this life.

or your God allow us freewill as immortal souls, to sin in Heaven or repent from Hell, but refuses to tranfer either from those places regardless of actions of good or will as -post earth - beings. asshole in heaven stay in heaven, souls in hell repenting of their mortal ways and finding your God, stay in Hell F_O_R_E_V_E_R.

either way i do not see your God Just in any way.

thanks for reply BTW, you seem like a nice fellow and i do like you.
Last edited by gaffo on Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sculptor
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Sculptor » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:16 am

f12hte wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:19 pm
Evil. What is it's source? Is it just a subjective idea in each person's mind? If God made all things, then is he the ultimate source of evil? Or is 'evil' even a thing? Or is it just a subjective idea? Or is it a human or even universal idea, in some respect? And if it is a universal idea, in what mind or matter does it exist? If evil exists, how did it come to be?

I hold a unique view of the world borne of my unique set of life experiences.

My unique worldview gives me a unique perspective on what is good and what is bad.

When I do a good thing, i think that the good reverberates down through the ages, since good actions engender knock-on good actions.

Ditto for when I do something that I consider bad.

So, the bad that I do is borne of my environment, filled with the knock-on effects of others' deeds, going back an eternity.

So evil, or at least culpability, has no origin? And if it has no origin, then how can it be said to exist?
"Evil" is not a force of nature.
Good is that which pleases man, evil is that which pleases him not.
One man's good, is another woman's evil and vice versa.
Whilst there may be many things upon which we can agree are not good, there is few if any that all can agree are universally evil and of no benefit to something or someone.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:27 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:07 am
all living before your Christ go to Hell forever - like me - just for being born before his time.
Definitely not. Have you forgotten the Mount of Transfiguration? Who was on it? Two guys who were born and died long before Christ Himself came.
now tell me how a Just god denies one from repentance from Hell
"Hell" isn't quite the correct term, but okay.

A just God is one who does not force people into relationship with Him. He can ask, he can show His intentions, He can even provide the means for people to choose that. But if they do not, then what does a just God do? He cannot, as John Locke said, "force [people] to Heaven." We do have names for relationships in which the stronger person forces the weaker to do have a relationship she does not wish to have...but none of those names are complimentary, I would say.

If God values genuine love, genuine relationship and genuine human freedom to choose, He can only do what they have decided. They wish to be without God. But that means that they reject association with the Source of all light, life and goodness. They have declared that is what they want. They want a place without God, who is the Giver or All Good Gifts. So they are in a place with no "good gifts." They had other choices, but determined not to make those choices. So then, they have what they wanted. As one theologian put it, "There are no unwilling residents in Hell; all who go there choose it."
if "The soul" is immortal, why would a Just God demand all being created by Him, to be judged for their acts here (from 1-month to 110 yrs of age - depending upon the moral beings born here on Earth) to be judged for thier actons here (when thier life here on Earth is less than 0.0000000000000000000000001 of the "life of their soul"?
Well, they're not judged for mere "actions." First and foremost, they are judged based on whether or not they stand in relation to God Himself, by their own choice. (See John Chapter 3, for a full explanation). That's the main basis of judgment. But the actions they took signify what kind of persons they were choosing to be. So that is relevant to revealing where their hearts really were at. (Matthew 7:21-23)
thanks for reply BTW, you seem like a nice fellow and i do like you.
You seem a decent chap yourself.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:14 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:27 am
gaffo wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:07 am
all living before your Christ go to Hell forever - like me - just for being born before his time.
Definitely not. Have you forgotten the Mount of Transfiguration? Who was on it? Two guys who were born and died long before Christ Himself came.
now tell me how a Just god denies one from repentance from Hell
"Hell" isn't quite the correct term, but okay.

A just God is one who does not force people into relationship with Him. He can ask, he can show His intentions, He can even provide the means for people to choose that. But if they do not, then what does a just God do? He cannot, as John Locke said, "force [people] to Heaven." We do have names for relationships in which the stronger person forces the weaker to do have a relationship she does not wish to have...but none of those names are complimentary, I would say.

If God values genuine love, genuine relationship and genuine human freedom to choose, He can only do what they have decided. They wish to be without God. But that means that they reject association with the Source of all light, life and goodness. They have declared that is what they want. They want a place without God, who is the Giver or All Good Gifts. So they are in a place with no "good gifts." They had other choices, but determined not to make those choices. So then, they have what they wanted. As one theologian put it, "There are no unwilling residents in Hell; all who go there choose it."
if "The soul" is immortal, why would a Just God demand all being created by Him, to be judged for their acts here (from 1-month to 110 yrs of age - depending upon the moral beings born here on Earth) to be judged for thier actons here (when thier life here on Earth is less than 0.0000000000000000000000001 of the "life of their soul"?
Well, they're not judged for mere "actions." First and foremost, they are judged based on whether or not they stand in relation to God Himself, by their own choice. (See John Chapter 3, for a full explanation). That's the main basis of judgment. But the actions they took signify what kind of persons they were choosing to be. So that is relevant to revealing where their hearts really were at. (Matthew 7:21-23)
thanks for reply BTW, you seem like a nice fellow and i do like you.
You seem a decent chap yourself.
I noted your removal of the whole 99.999999999999999 of all us being imortal souls per your religion - and my point about repenting from Hell/sining from heaven - or your god removing the freewill part of our souls to do either from those places.

you ignored.

which was/is my main point, and why i will not be Christian - ever! - as long as your God condems my actions on this Earth per the small time frame (even though being a "Good person" who just happens to be an Atheist) -and will repent the first second finding myself in Hell for being a good person but not good enough, for not belveing in your God.

a just God would allow me to Repent from Hell. and me valuing Good over Evil, will assume finding myself in Hell after life (and me being wrong - shock fo shocks me being wrong about stuff - lol) I am a humble person Sir, i.e. finding myself in Hell, i hope your God will hear me and save me from Hell - allow me "time served" (like all the folks/friends ive known for decades whe were not Christian, but good persons nonetheless)).

address this theme Sir. instead of removing my post and ignore it!

thanks for reply still, i do like you - i view you as partially brainwashed, but of goodwill, and worthy of dissucssing such matters.

so instead of removing my main point, kindly address it Sir.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:55 am

i've asked you to start a relgion thread, amos., jonah/etc.........

I would welcome it - i am humble so do not demand it.

just ask why you have not?

we both have the same view of morality and have the same good heart - though you go to heaven forever and i go to hell to burn forever.

why not start said thread which i view personally as worthy?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:28 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:14 am
I noted your removal of the whole 99.999999999999999 of all us being imortal souls per your religion
I'm sorry...I didn't understand it. Why would .000000000000001 souls not be "immortal"?
...and my point about repenting from Hell/sining from heaven - or your god removing the freewill part of our souls to do either from those places.
Oh, that's easy. It doesn't present a problem to free will, any more than it's a problem for free will when people get married. Once you marry someone, you pledge to "love, honour and cherish" that person exclusively, and "forsaking all others," to "cleave only to him/her". So after marriage, you no longer have any "free will" to sleep around, without breaking that vow. But does that mean your marriage is not an action of free will? Of course not.
...as long as your God condems my actions on this Earth per the small time frame (even though being a "Good person" who just happens to be an Atheist) -and will repent the first second finding myself in Hell for being a good person but not good enough, for not belveing in your God.
This assumes that people who have already chosen to reject God will change their minds. I don't think we have any indication that they will.

They have both means and opportunity to make a better choice now. But I think people get hardened after awhile, and they refuse to change, even if their choice is a wretched one. Pride is a terrible thing. As the Bible puts it, "Pride goes before destruction." There's no clearer case of the truth of that than the unrepentant man.
address this theme Sir. instead of removing my post and ignore it!
As above: but if you would be so kind, you'll have to clear up the first point for me; because I genuinely don't get what you're saying there.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:21 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:28 am

As above: but if you would be so kind, you'll have to clear up the first point for me; because I genuinely don't get what you're saying there.
not sure what my first point was, will address it if you refresh my memory.

per the other point - "no repentance from Hell, nor sin and casting out from Heaven" and why so,

you reply after affirming Freewill of moral souls living here on Earth via the act of Marriage.

This assumes that people who have already chosen to reject God will change their minds.

I think nearly all finding themselves "still alive" in a burning hell, will so repent of their sins pronto.

i can only conclude you view that your God removes Freewill from all souls upon Death, so only atomotons(sp) populate Heaven and Hell.

partial Souls, with their freewill removed, forced to eternal torture for finite acts while on Earth.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:01 am

emanual kant? you around? welcome a reply to my inquiry.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:45 pm

emanual? you still here?

address my point, infinite punishment for finite "crimes" (sins in this mortal life).

Emanual? you still here?

hello?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:05 pm

Apologies. I was absent for a week. I'm back now.
you reply after affirming Freewill of moral souls living here on Earth via the act of Marriage.

This assumes that people who have already chosen to reject God will change their minds.
No. It doesn't entail that at all.

I was simply pointing out that one only needs to make some choices once, in order for them to be genuine choices. When one says "I do," and then one swears to "forsake all others," as the marriage vows conventionally say, then one has made a genuine choice.

Just so, a person who decides he wants to know God is making a decision. A person who decides he wants no part of God is making a decision. But the option to choose is never open forever. One has times to choose, and times when one lives with the choice one has made. There is nothing odd about that.
I think nearly all finding themselves "still alive" in a burning hell, will so repent of their sins pronto.
Disregarding the mythical view of Hell you suggest there, I think it's quite possible that people who decide they do not want God eventually get exactly what they asked for. And I see neither practical nor Scriptural warrant for thinking they ever change their minds, once that time of decision is past.
i can only conclude you view that your God removes Freewill from all souls upon Death
No, that doesn't follow.

Like I said above, there are some decisions that eventually become permanent. There is nothing unusual about that. The fact that you choose to marry one woman means you are, by choice, deciding to curtail your "free" option of choosing others. It does not mean you had no free choice in the first place, or that you fail to have it anymore. It just means that your mind is made up.

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