EVIL!!!!!!!!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

gaffo
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:22 am And while germs will likely never exterminate their own species, man has now the ability to do that to all mankind.
watch Threads if you have not. i found it 8 yrs ago on YT - then copied the DVD via netflick, then later bought the limited Bluray release.

ww3 - scare the shit out of you.................and realistic (old tv movie brit 1983.

we have 7-billion folks and the southern hemisphere (both Brazil and South Africa canceled the nuc programs 40 yrs ago so are not targets)

so even with a full on ww3, the southern hemisphere will be fine enough and with 7 billion, 3/4 will survive globally even worse case.

same with ww4 in 500 yrs and ww5 in 1500 yrs etc

BTW check out the book "The Canticle for Leibowitz" - and the NPR radioplay if 1981 (on internet Archive) - excellent work - like thread of course only about ww4 instead of ww3.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9530
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:27 am but the whole creationism vs evolution, like the red meat guns gays and feituses bore the shit out of me.
It's not exactly supposed to entertain us. The importance of a question is obviously not linked to how entertaining it is. But I get that it's easier, in some ways, to ignore it than to consider it.
I've been an Athiest since age 12

See, this is interesting to me.

A lot of allegedly "sophisticated" Atheists claim to have discovered their Atheism in adolescence -- including such famous names as Richard Dawkins and Antony Flew. But if one becomes an Atheist so early, just how "intellectually sophisticated" can such a belief actually be? There has to be a limit to the rational acuity of a 12 or 14 year old, for sure.

Moreover, statistical studies have revealed that Atheists tend to be younger in general, and most often male (by far). In addition, almost all of the big names, including Hitchens, Freud, Nietzsche, Marx, and so on, confess to having strained, distant or hateful relationships with their fathers -- no such parallel with mothers, interestingly.

I find it all very curious.
gaffo
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

trivia: daughter of ruth in Threads died on the m-16? (brit highway) only 4-5 yrs after that movie

author of Canticle was a bombair of Monte Cassino (and one of the reasons he wrote his work in the early 60's due to that experience)

sadly Walter Miller jr committed suicide in the late 90's early 00's in this 70's.
Last edited by gaffo on Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9530
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:36 am BTW check out the book "The Canticle for Leibowitz" - and the NPR radioplay if 1981 (on internet Archive) - excellent work - like thread of course only about ww4 instead of ww3.
I read the novel years ago.
gaffo
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:43 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:27 am but the whole creationism vs evolution, like the red meat guns gays and feituses bore the shit out of me.
It's not exactly supposed to entertain us. The importance of a question is obviously not linked to how entertaining it is. But I get that it's easier, in some ways, to ignore it than to consider it.
I've been an Athiest since age 12

See, this is interesting to me.

A lot of allegedly "sophisticated" Atheists claim to have discovered their Atheism in adolescence -- including such famous names as Richard Dawkins and Antony Flew. But if one becomes an Atheist so early, just how "intellectually sophisticated" can such a belief actually be? There has to be a limit to the rational acuity of a 12 or 14 year old, for sure.

Moreover, statistical studies have revealed that Atheists tend to be younger in general, and most often male (by far). In addition, almost all of the big names, including Hitchens, Freud, Nietzsche, Marx, and so on, confess to having strained, distant or hateful relationships with their fathers -- no such parallel with mothers, interestingly.

I find it all very curious.
none in my family were devoit, have to go back to 1900 literally.

i was nominally christian by default culture until 12, then just was no longer.

all i my family back to granparents were agnostic or some such.

why i was never at war with God, never being brought up devout have no war with Him.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9530
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:48 am none in my family were devoit, have to go back to 1900 literally.
So you had no positive encounter with people of faith? And no exposure to sincere believers? Is that right?

I can then understand why it wouldn't automatically be an issue you would find reason to consider as a young person. But you're not a child now, of course...so maybe it's time you actually considered the possibility that the "non-tradition" in which you were raised wasn't the only possibility.

Just suggesting.
gaffo
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:48 am none in my family were devoit, have to go back to 1900 literally.
So you had no positive encounter with people of faith?
nope, my best friend was (not sure now, he is going through trivail these last few years........best friends now for 40 yrs) a devout Pentocostal.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am And no exposure to sincere believers? Is that right?

no, that's not right sir.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am I can then understand why it wouldn't automatically be an issue you would find reason to consider as a young person.
stop with your condecension.

we are all a product of our culture, mine was without much of a god, none of my family being religious.

my best friend was the opposite, and why he is a Christian Pentocostal and I'm an Atheist.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am But you're not a child now, of course...so maybe it's time you actually considered the possibility that the "non-tradition" in which you were raised wasn't the only possibility.

Just suggesting.
Correct I'm an man now, and now know assholes come in all colors and religions, and no moral religion can make an asshole a saint.

and why i ignore anyones self proffessed faith in determining their character.

instead i watch them in their lives, and then ignoring their self proffessed religion, determine via my own adult mind if they are good folks or hyporcritical assholes.
gaffo
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

condescension noted......will ignore it.

you need to stop being naive, and assume assholes will use your moral religion (as i said i value your Religion's tenets as moral-worthy) as a sword.

perverting it and using it to kill and maime in the name of your God.

while proffessing to be Christian (and gathering many sheople followers)

they have been doing so for centuries now bubba.

wake up.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9530
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:26 am nope, my best friend was (not sure now, he is going through trivail these last few years........best friends now for 40 yrs) a devout Pentocostal.
I know them. Theirs is not quite my theology, but those I've met have been nice people.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am And no exposure to sincere believers? Is that right?
no, that's not right sir.
Then I stand corrected.
we are all a product of our culture, mine was without much of a god, none of my family being religious.

my best friend was the opposite, and why he is a Christian Pentocostal and I'm an Atheist.
This forgets the very common phenomenon known as "conversion." A great number of people who start out one way, with one culture, decide not to stay with it and opt for a different one. So that's not really necessarily the reason each of you is what he is...but it might be only that. It will be on a case-by-case basis.
instead i watch them in their lives, and then ignoring their self proffessed religion, determine via my own adult mind if they are good folks or hyporcritical assholes.
Well, ironically, that is a very Biblical test.

Jesus Christ said that was exactly how one ought to tell the real people from the phonies. So fair enough.
gaffo
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:25 am
gaffo wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:26 am nope, my best friend was (not sure now, he is going through trivail these last few years........best friends now for 40 yrs) a devout Pentocostal.
I know them.

really? not many in Canada/Britain.

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:25 am Theirs is not quite my theology,
clearly!

in know of the differences of the trillions of denominations we have on earth.

what is yours?

curious.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:25 am but those I've met have been nice people.
I've met and know several Pentocostals and well as Muslims.

the asshole vs good folk count was the same percentage.

I've know less - under 5 Hindus and so do not know a large enough sample (but willing to assume the asshole percentage is the same via "Faith" in assholes global percentages).



Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am And no exposure to sincere believers? Is that right?
no, that's not right sir.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am Then I stand corrected.
I thank you for this, it shows you are both a gentleman and humble (Humility is one of the Virtues, second-third to Love and Wisdom.........one of the top three (this topic "the virtues" is worthy of its own thread, if you start it i would love to contribute my views).


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am
we are all a product of our culture, mine was without much of a god, none of my family being religious.

my best friend was the opposite, and why he is a Christian Pentocostal and I'm an Atheist.
This forgets the very common phenomenon known as "conversion." A great number of people who start out one way, with one culture, decide not to stay with it and opt for a different one. So that's not really necessarily the reason each of you is what he is...but it might be only that. It will be on a case-by-case basis.
1000 percent disagree on this.

we are all born within our culture (yes there are outliers - why there are 1 percent Christian in Saudi Arabia) - but the outliers are not the rule.

the rule is we are all born in the faith of our culture.

and why 90-percent of Saudis are Muslims, same for why Americans are Christian and why Indians are Hindu.............etc.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am
instead i watch them in their lives, and then ignoring their self proffessed religion, determine via my own adult mind if they are good folks or hyporcritical assholes.
Well, ironically, that is a very Biblical test.
agreed, and why Jesus hated hypocrites more the pagans.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am Jesus Christ said that was exactly how one ought to tell the real people from the phonies. So fair enough.
yep, like your Jesus, i hate hypocrites almost as much as he did.

his mentor John the Baptist did too BTW

both were kille by the hypocrite Jewish King Herod - which they both hated with moral zeal.

may they both rest in peace - and may herod burn for time served (then granted reprieve from hell after contrition).
gaffo
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

I do have knowledge in both the OT and NT - but prefer the OT minor prophets works.

would love to discuss, esp Job, Amos, and Jonah.

but you need to have an interest in the discussion and create threads for them.

just sayin.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9530
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:46 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:25 am
gaffo wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:26 am nope, my best friend was (not sure now, he is going through trivail these last few years........best friends now for 40 yrs) a devout Pentocostal.
I know them.
really? not many in Canada/Britain.
You'd be surprised. :wink:
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:25 am Theirs is not quite my theology,
clearly!

in know of the differences of the trillions of denominations we have on earth.

what is yours?

curious.
I'm non-denominational, actually. That means that I am a member of a church, but not one with any exclusionary denominational practices.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am And no exposure to sincere believers? Is that right?
no, that's not right sir.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am Then I stand corrected.
I thank you for this, it shows you are both a gentleman and humble (Humility is one of the Virtues, second-third to Love and Wisdom.........one of the top three (this topic "the virtues" is worthy of its own thread, if you start it i would love to contribute my views).
Well, humility is nothing one can boast about. :wink: I'm simply interested in knowing you as you happen to be, not in misrepresenting you in any way.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am
we are all a product of our culture, mine was without much of a god, none of my family being religious.

my best friend was the opposite, and why he is a Christian Pentocostal and I'm an Atheist.
This forgets the very common phenomenon known as "conversion." A great number of people who start out one way, with one culture, decide not to stay with it and opt for a different one. So that's not really necessarily the reason each of you is what he is...but it might be only that. It will be on a case-by-case basis.
1000 percent disagree on this.
You may. But I could produce literally thousands of counter-cases to that theory that I have seen and met. And there are quite a few famous ones, too. C.S. Lewis converted from Atheism, as did Antony Flew. Ravi Zacharias converted from Hinduism, and Nabeel Qureshi was a Muslim. People do change beliefs all the time. Culture may incline us one way or another initially, but it's not at all determinative in the long run.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am
instead i watch them in their lives, and then ignoring their self proffessed religion, determine via my own adult mind if they are good folks or hyporcritical assholes.
Well, ironically, that is a very Biblical test.
agreed, and why Jesus hated hypocrites more the pagans.
I don't actually read that He hated any pagans. And even the hypocritical Pharisees, He made efforts to turn around. But those who would not, and who corrupted faith, or who preyed on orphans and widows...well, He had very strong words for such, though he never hurt any.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am Jesus Christ said that was exactly how one ought to tell the real people from the phonies. So fair enough.
yep, like your Jesus, i hate hypocrites almost as much as he did.

his mentor John the Baptist did too BTW
Indeed so.
both were kille by the hypocrite Jewish King Herod - which they both hated with moral zeal.
Jesus Christ did indeed have an audience before Herod, who abused Him; but He was killed proximally by a Roman named Pilate and his soldiers, in conjunction with those hypocritical religious folks of whom you just spoke. Ultimately, the person who killed Him was me. He died because I was a sinner and a God-hater, and because He loved me and wanted forgiveness to be available to me. As the Bible says,

"[Jesus Christ} was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." (Romans 4:25)
gaffo
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:06 am C.S. Lewis converted from Atheism, as did Antony Flew. Ravi Zacharias converted from Hinduism, and Nabeel Qureshi was a Muslim.
I know C.s. is revered by many, but i personally do not care for his works.

i know nothing of the man so will not disparage the dead, but per is works i think they are overrated.

i know nothing nor heard of the other men you mention, so cannot comment about them.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:06 am People do change beliefs all the time. Culture may incline us one way or another initially, but it's not at all determinative in the long run.
dissagee, it think you have it inverted folks nearly never break out of their cultural box IMO.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am
I don't actually read that He hated any pagans.
agreed, i was lazy and wrong in the prior post, per the bible Jesus, Jesus never hated pagans.

did not really concern himself with them actually, he focus was on Judaic faithful vs the Judaic hypocrites.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am Jesus Christ did indeed have an audience before Herod, who abused Him;
yes i know, at least he had a show trial, unlike his mentor, who just had his head removed because Herod's wife demanded it.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am but He was killed proximally by a Roman named Pilate and his soldiers, in conjunction with those hypocritical religious folks of whom you just spoke.
yes i know, in fact Judea was a Roman provence - so Rome in effect, and even if Herod in an alternate universe absolved Jesus of heresy-insurrection, if the Romans thought otherwise, they would have killed him in spite of Herod's ruling/views of the man.

if it was a matter of Roman Order.


which it was BTW - Herod just happened to agree with the Romans (Herod was a lacky bootlicker, so prob convicted Jesus to please his Roman masters regardless of his personal views about the man).

Legal per the rule of power/empire, Herod was no fool and know his neck would be next if he defended Jesus, and had not reason too either being a bootlicker.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am Ultimately, the person who killed Him was me. He died because I was a sinner and a God-hater, and because He loved me and wanted forgiveness to be available to me. As the Bible says,

"[Jesus Christ} was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." (Romans 4:25)
yes i understand your Religion's tenents on the matter.

IMO the Romans killed him for insurrection against the empire for being a Essene Jew - they killed many 100's before him and as many after him before the Roman Empire collapsed. in all of her provences - from Spain to Syria.


Sparticus (alone with 100's of his followers were crusified 400 yrs earlier- in Italy herself - he and his army were the spark of "no tolaration" for the Romans afterward for centuries.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9530
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:32 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:06 am C.S. Lewis converted from Atheism, as did Antony Flew. Ravi Zacharias converted from Hinduism, and Nabeel Qureshi was a Muslim.
I know C.s. is revered by many, but i personally do not care for his works.
In the point I was making, it doesn't matter. What's verifiably true is that all these people are converts from one worldview to a completely different one. If culture were the sum of what a person believes, that wouldn't be possible even once -- let alone as frequent as it is.
i know nothing nor heard of the other men you mention, so cannot comment about them.
Well, you can trust me...or you can look them up. You'll find all of them converted, and from the worldviews I listed, too. I'm telling you the truth.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:06 am People do change beliefs all the time. Culture may incline us one way or another initially, but it's not at all determinative in the long run.
dissagee, it think you have it inverted folks nearly never break out of their cultural box IMO.
Well, the above cases show that's not true. And I could give you many, many more.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am Ultimately, the person who killed Him was me. He died because I was a sinner and a God-hater, and because He loved me and wanted forgiveness to be available to me. As the Bible says,

"[Jesus Christ} was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." (Romans 4:25)
yes i understand your Religion's tenents on the matter.
Well, that's my view. And that's why I don't blame Romans or Jews for anything. I had my own part in it all. So Herod...yeah, bad dude. But worse than me? Who am I to say? As I say, I have myself to answer for.
gaffo
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:07 am
gaffo wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:32 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:06 am C.S. Lewis converted from Atheism, as did Antony Flew. Ravi Zacharias converted from Hinduism, and Nabeel Qureshi was a Muslim.
I know C.s. is revered by many, but i personally do not care for his works.
In the point I was making, it doesn't matter. What's verifiably true is that all these people are converts from one worldview to a completely different one. If culture were the sum of what a person believes, that wouldn't be possible even once -- let alone as frequent as it is.
i know nothing nor heard of the other men you mention, so cannot comment about them.
Well, you can trust me...or you can look them up. You'll find all of them converted, and from the worldviews I listed, too. I'm telling you the truth.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:06 am People do change beliefs all the time. Culture may incline us one way or another initially, but it's not at all determinative in the long run.
dissagee, it think you have it inverted folks nearly never break out of their cultural box IMO.
Well, the above cases show that's not true. And I could give you many, many more.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:55 am Ultimately, the person who killed Him was me. He died because I was a sinner and a God-hater, and because He loved me and wanted forgiveness to be available to me. As the Bible says,

"[Jesus Christ} was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." (Romans 4:25)
yes i understand your Religion's tenents on the matter.
Well, that's my view. And that's why I don't blame Romans or Jews for anything. I had my own part in it all. So Herod...yeah, bad dude. But worse than me? Who am I to say? As I say, I have myself to answer for.
agree to dissagree on cultures power over peeples religion.

per Herod and youself, good humble views since you only kow yourself - and leave Herod to himself and your God.

--------

thinking about Herod and when he lived, brought me to the weakness of your religion (it was noted around 120 AD and why Peter 2 was written - where it ws stated those that died before the time of Christ were afforded to hear the "good news" when he went to Hell during the three days Christ was "Dead" - and saved folks from Hell. IMO this book was written because the new christians were thinking "What about my mom./dad/.good guy down the street i knew who died before they heard about Christ? they burn in hell forever just for being born too early to head the Gospel?"


of course i was born too late - for if i reject your Gospel in this life, when i find myself "still alive" (like all those folks that lived before me and before the time of Christ) - in Hell, your Christ decended to Hell to free them, but me?

nope i was born too late, i burn forever, even after i find myself still alive in Hell, i shall cry out to your God from Hell and he will not come down to preach the Gospel as He did 2000 yrs ago because i was born to late.

born to burn forever, that me.
Post Reply