EVIL!!!!!!!!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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henry quirk
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"A cause is a good way to keep us young and feeling that we are a part of a greater whole."

Post by henry quirk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:06 pm

For me, right now, it's my thirteen year old. Makin' him into a self-responsible, self-directing, human being is just about a full-time job.

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Lacewing
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Lacewing » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:15 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:48 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:03 am
Walker wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:51 am

Does your truth also remove God from "heavenly," just as it does for "divine?"
Why does a concept of heaven require a god? Heaven is in your mind. You need to expand beyond your small ideas, Walker. You're trying to limit communication and understanding by defining words very narrowly based on archaic concepts. Let go...and see how much more there is. :lol:
I see unearned smugness here.
Do you? Rather than humor? :lol: Not everyone on this forum is wrapped up in their own ideas with serious expressions on their faces.
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:48 pm
You are using words that are beyond definition. Like God, divine, heavenly etc.
So are we not to try to communicate using words that we think come closest to our intent, while explaining the context we are using them in? What kind of rigid guidelines must we follow? Hasn't language naturally evolved in all sorts of ways? Are certain words to be "untouchable", due to some kind of archaic religious rigidity? Why?

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Sculptor
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Sculptor » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:25 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:37 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:21 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:56 pm


I would like to comment on this and did in that rather longish post on page one.

Yes, human against human evil is natural and so is good.
We default to good to a point where science is having a hard time explaining why we are so good.
We default to evil as a last resort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

Regards
DL
No I do not think you have answered the point at all.
We know people do good and bad things. But there being good or bad is generally dependant on POV.
As for the video..
Dawkins struggling with Altruism is just an embarrassment to many people who find goodness near to their own way of life. Natural Selection results in a variety of strategies, that are not determined by eventual outcomes, but given by the results of survival. Evolution is not expected to get everything perfectly right. Darwin's theory does not have to result in every single act only working to promote the genes doing the act.
So, in general an altruistic attitude tends to result in good co-operative acts which promote the wider family. But since there is no DIRECT feedback mechanism, altruism of a dog bitch in suckling kittens; or a lioness adopting a baboon baby does not fly against natural selection in any sense, because traits are generalising, they cannot hope to always be specific. Cross species acts of altruism, or altruism for one's own species for people a thousand miles away simply underlines the fact of Natural Selection, without doing anything to argue against it.
Cases of psychopathy where individuals were wholly self centred are rare, but are able to thrive on the backs of those that are more generally well disposed to help others. One has to imagine what a world would be like if everyone were psychopathic. It would not be very successful at all.

I was arguing against the absurd notion that "evil" or "good" are forces of nature. They are simply not. Even a psycho can do good things - that is to say act according to another's benefit, though the psycho might have ulterior motives, the act can result in good.
Let us imagine that a psycho wishing to lure another person into their will, continues to provide nice things to that person; food, lifts, job offers, outings. Now let us imagine that his target is also a psycho and feels no obligation but is using the association for their own benefit. The acts are still good for the target. We could easily enough re-arrange the combination; two psychos; two non psychos; and one of each vice versa. The acts would be good acts, but the outcomes would be different.

An act to save a person's life might be well intentioned yet do evil. Whereas killing intended as evil might do good. It would not take much imagination to find such examples. But where is "evil" as a force?
Evil is not described as a force in any dictionary I have seen so I do not accept your argument.
All too many people read the bible.

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Lacewing
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Re: "A cause is a good way to keep us young and feeling that we are a part of a greater whole."

Post by Lacewing » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:31 pm

Sure, it can be. A "cause" can also be the reason that people do horrible or misguided things. Right?

It's also true that we can be young and feeling that we are part of a greater whole WITHOUT some kind of specific cause. Simply because that's how we feel/choose. Agreed?

I don't think there are any rules -- you either do it or you don't, and it doesn't have to be dependent on anything. Ideas and stories may help us focus or feel inspired or whatever, but they can also tangle us up. It seems that we believe way too many stories, and use them to justify all kinds of things. Yes?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "A cause is a good way to keep us young and feeling that we are a part of a greater whole."

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:15 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:06 pm
For me, right now, it's my thirteen year old. Makin' him into a self-responsible, self-directing, human being is just about a full-time job.
That's a good point, actually.

It's all well and dandy for people to say "morals are relative," when all they really want is the license to do what they themselves please. But they don't want their kids to do that -- at least, not if they have any sense of responsibility at all for the moral development and personal welfare of their kids. When kids enter the equation, suddenly we all get morally responsible, and start to wonder what the RIGHT thing to teach them would be.

That's not hypocrisy on their part, so much as it's a reality check. If the morals one prescribes to oneself are not capable of making one's teenager into a "self-responsible, self-directed human being," or perhaps even better, into a functional, well-adjusted, well-liked, opportunity-rich member of society, then why would one be prescribing them to oneself? :shock:

Having a kid one has to raise is a great recipe for ending the moral claptrap about relativism. It turns out that relativism, in that context, just means neglecting one's duties to help a child become a good human being.

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Greatest I am
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Re: "A cause is a good way to keep us young and feeling that we are a part of a greater whole."

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:26 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:06 pm
For me, right now, it's my thirteen year old. Makin' him into a self-responsible, self-directing, human being is just about a full-time job.
You are a little late as his peers have now taken over most of his teaching.
That does not mean you have lost all influence of course, you always have some with your children, but the fundamentals will come from outside the family and not from within it.

Take that with a grain of salt as I am sure that there are many exceptions now that we keep our kids at home till they are 40. :twisted: :twisted:

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:29 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:15 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:48 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:03 am

Why does a concept of heaven require a god? Heaven is in your mind. You need to expand beyond your small ideas, Walker. You're trying to limit communication and understanding by defining words very narrowly based on archaic concepts. Let go...and see how much more there is. :lol:
I see unearned smugness here.
Do you? Rather than humor? :lol: Not everyone on this forum is wrapped up in their own ideas with serious expressions on their faces.
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:48 pm
You are using words that are beyond definition. Like God, divine, heavenly etc.
So are we not to try to communicate using words that we think come closest to our intent, while explaining the context we are using them in? What kind of rigid guidelines must we follow? Hasn't language naturally evolved in all sorts of ways? Are certain words to be "untouchable", due to some kind of archaic religious rigidity? Why?
Throwing one unexplainable word into a discussion, most can work around.
To throw as many as you did and the way you did leads nowhere.

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:33 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:25 pm

All too many people read the bible.
I would say that those who need it the most, the religious, do not read it much at all.
If they did, they would leave their vile mainstream homophobic and misogynous religions and reject the genocidal son murdering p**** of a god that they have inherited from their immoral parents.

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: "A cause is a good way to keep us young and feeling that we are a part of a greater whole."

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:35 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:31 pm
Sure, it can be. A "cause" can also be the reason that people do horrible or misguided things. Right?

It's also true that we can be young and feeling that we are part of a greater whole WITHOUT some kind of specific cause. Simply because that's how we feel/choose. Agreed?

I don't think there are any rules -- you either do it or you don't, and it doesn't have to be dependent on anything. Ideas and stories may help us focus or feel inspired or whatever, but they can also tangle us up. It seems that we believe way too many stories, and use them to justify all kinds of things. Yes?
Sure. Every Yin has it's Yang.

Regards
DL

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henry quirk
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I done infested his thinkin'.

Post by henry quirk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:37 pm

"You are a little late as his peers have now taken over most of his teaching."

Nah, I've had 'em for thirteen years: I'm in his bones, in his head.

##

"That's a good point, actually."

Yep.

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Greatest I am
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Re: I done infested his thinkin'.

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:48 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:37 pm
"You are a little late as his peers have now taken over most of his teaching."

Nah, I've had 'em for thirteen years: I'm in his bones, in his head.

##

"That's a good point, actually."

Yep.
I agree and see myself as in their essence, but I saw my influence decrease over time in all of my 4 boys.

I am now working on my grandchildren to make sure my boys are not becoming snow plow parents.
That is hard to do as my wife and I do not want to be labelled as interfering with our grandchildren's upbringing.

A challenge is good for a person as long as success is within reach and we should challenge our children to their limits.
What does not kill them will make them strong.

Regards
DL

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Lacewing
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Lacewing » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:03 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:29 pm
Throwing one unexplainable word into a discussion, most can work around.
To throw as many as you did and the way you did leads nowhere.
Please give some examples of what I said that you see as unexplainable and leading nowhere. Otherwise, you're not explaining anything and it leads nowhere.

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Lacewing
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Re: I done infested his thinkin'.

Post by Lacewing » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:05 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:37 pm
I've had 'em for thirteen years: I'm in his bones, in his head.
Thank goodness for therapy.

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Greatest I am
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:47 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:03 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:29 pm
Throwing one unexplainable word into a discussion, most can work around.
To throw as many as you did and the way you did leads nowhere.
Please give some examples of what I said that you see as unexplainable and leading nowhere. Otherwise, you're not explaining anything and it leads nowhere.
"I'm using the word divine to mean sacred, heavenly, celestial (love, light, and expansion)"

What does diviner have to do with love when a divine Yahweh showed enough hate to use genocide.
Heaven is thought to be sacred yet Satan was there. What does light have to do with anything? Expansion of what the hell are you talking about?????

Get the idea?

Do you really want to spend a week defining all the garbage unrelated terms you have stacked up?

Regards
DL

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Lacewing
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Lacewing » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:28 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:47 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:03 pm
Please give some examples of what I said that you see as unexplainable and leading nowhere. Otherwise, you're not explaining anything and it leads nowhere.
"I'm using the word divine to mean sacred, heavenly, celestial (love, light, and expansion)"

What does diviner have to do with love when a divine Yahweh showed enough hate to use genocide.
Heaven is thought to be sacred yet Satan was there. What does light have to do with anything? Expansion of what the hell are you talking about?????

Get the idea?

Do you really want to spend a week defining all the garbage unrelated terms you have stacked up?
First of all, you left off the second half of my sentence: "as opposed to (say) hate-filled and vile destructiveness and terror (dense darkness)". This was to help provide some clarity and context by showing "opposites".

Second, I didn't say anything about Yahweh or a god or Satan... you brought that in. If your limiting notions fuck up your idea of love and what can be divine, that's your problem. Describing something as divine... whether it be a hot fudge sundae or a person or a philosophy, most certainly can encompass love, and without anything to do with a god. My language is fine -- your brain is creating roadblocks and inserting your own distorted notions.

What does light have to do with anything, you ask? Really? Are you unaware of the terms of light and darkness being used to describe mental/spiritual states? And expansion as opposed to being dense (as I said). Dense, dark, rigid, closed, vile, hate, destructive -- what word would you use to encapsulate all of these? Expanded, light, flexible, open, love, sacred, celestial, heavenly -- what word would you use to encapsulate all of these? Might someone describe Evil vs. Divine this way, perhaps?

Get the idea? Do you really NEED to be so resistant and argumentative? What the fuck is your problem?

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