EVIL!!!!!!!!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Or can you explain to me why your Atheism does not require Materialism
The answer to that is that Atheism has absolutely nothing whatsoever to say about materialism
But since you asked the question what do you think it has to do with the non acceptance of God
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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:57 pm Its wrong to steal because one does not have the right to take property without permission from someone else
Sez who? I'm an Atheist. I want it. I can get it. You won't even know who's taken it.

Why shouldn't I?
Materialism produced the human brain
Well, that's a contended supposition, of course: so you can't argue as if it's just granted. But let pretend it's not. If the brain is just "materials" then morals are just a particular flow of chemicals and electrons in the meat we call "brain." It means nothing, and obliges me not at all.

Why should I, as an Atheist, not steal? What makes it "wrong," if it is?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:06 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Or can you explain to me why your Atheism does not require Materialism
The answer to that is that Atheism has absolutely nothing whatsoever to say about materialism
Without Materialism, then non-material entities "exist" and are "real." And if that's so, how do you then rule out the existence of God?

That's why Atheism is stupefied without Materialism. It's got no other basis of argument.
surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 »

Every single human being of sound mind knows it is wrong to steal including those who actually do it themselves
So even if those who steal know it is wrong to steal why are you wasting energy asking such a ridiculous question
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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:17 pm Every single human being of sound mind knows it is wrong to steal including those who actually do it themselves
An Atheist doesn't know WHY it's wrong.

He may have the feeling, but some feelings are delusions or irrational impulses...so how can he judge whether his hesitancy to steal is wrong, or is just cowardice he should get over?

And what if he fails to feel it's wrong? Is it then right?
surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Without Materialism then non material entities exist and are real . And if thats so how do you then rule out the existence of God
Nice non sequitur there : God exists so he must be non material
God is only non material because that is how he is traditionally defined but there is no logical reason as to why he has to be defined that way
He could simply be the totality of all that exists and so would therefore be material and observable and possess of the attributes you give him
surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 »

Immanuel Can wrote:
An Atheist doesnt know WHY its wrong to steal
I am an atheist and I know that it is wrong to steal because it is both immoral and illegal
Have I got that right or do you think I need to convert back to Christianity just to be sure
surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 »

But atheists are not the only ones who steal so that is where your argument fails
Because what justification is there for someone who has a belief system to steal
surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Without Materialism then non material entities exist and are real . And if thats so how do you then rule out the existence of God
Nice non sequitur there : God exists so he must be non material
God is only non material because that is how he is traditionally defined but there is no logical reason as to why he has to be defined in this way
He could simply be the totality of all that exists so would therefore be material and observable and possess none of the attributes you give him
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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:29 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Without Materialism then non material entities exist and are real . And if thats so how do you then rule out the existence of God
Nice non sequitur there : God exists so he must be non material
I did not make that argument. I implied the converse: that if materials are all there are, that's the only way you can suggest you "know" there can be no God.

But since you cannot know that the material is all there is, that argument won't actually work. Likewise, morals are non-material entities. If they are real, then Materialism is false. It's just another level upon which Atheism falls. There are so many...
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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:40 pm But atheists are not the only ones who steal so that is where your argument fails
Not at all.

I'm talking about what an ideology will rationalize. You're only talking about what people may do in spite of their ideology. But I have already acknowledged the problem of human hypocrisy: we don't always behave with rational consistency.

The difference is this: to be a rationally and morally consistent Theist is, by Theistic account, good. To be a rationally-consistent Atheist is not even required by Atheism, by any account.
Because what justification is there for someone who has a belief system to steal
Plenty.

"I want...", "I can...", "You can't stop me...," "I would be happier if I had...," "Nobody will know..." etc. That's why people do, in fact, steal sometimes, even contrary to their moral ideology.

But Atheism doesn't even allow the implication there's a reason you shouldn't steal. It implies you can if you want.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:36 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: An Atheist doesnt know WHY its wrong to steal
I am an atheist and I know that it is wrong to steal because it is both immoral
Not by any light Atheism sheds. Unless you can show otherwise...which you cannot, of course.
and illegal
That's contingent. Many things have been "illegal" which are not now. And under Atheist suppositions, there's no basis even for saying one has to care what others regard as "legal." If you can get away with something, why not?
Have I got that right or do you think I need to convert back to Christianity just to be sure
No. You could still have a residual conscience. But I think that's only because you haven't been "converted" to a consistent view of Atheism. You're probably too moral a person to want to live like that.

That says good things for your character. It doesn't say much for Atheism, though.
surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 »

Immanuel Can wrote:
morals are non material entities . If they are real then Materialism is false
I can think of many things that exist but are non material or at least are defined in that way
Thoughts - ideas - concepts - dreams - hallucinations - numbers - words - ideologies - beliefs

For me if something actually exists then it possesses physicality even if it is not regarded as physical because of the way physical is defined
That is a demarcation problem where all the non physical things are put in a box labelled mental which is just the physical by another name
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bahman
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:18 pm
surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:40 pm But atheists are not the only ones who steal so that is where your argument fails
Not at all.

I'm talking about what an ideology will rationalize. You're only talking about what people may do in spite of their ideology. But I have already acknowledged the problem of human hypocrisy: we don't always behave with rational consistency.

The difference is this: to be a rationally and morally consistent Theist is, by Theistic account, good. To be a rationally-consistent Atheist is not even required by Atheism, by any account.
Because what justification is there for someone who has a belief system to steal
Plenty.

"I want...", "I can...", "You can't stop me...," "I would be happier if I had...," "Nobody will know..." etc. That's why people do, in fact, steal sometimes, even contrary to their moral ideology.

But Atheism doesn't even allow the implication there's a reason you shouldn't steal. It implies you can if you want.
The reality is that there is no justification for morality. That is true even in Theism. Is there a reason why God declares His commands or it is just as He wants?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: morals are non material entities . If they are real then Materialism is false
I can think of many things that exist but are non material or at least are defined in that way
Thoughts - ideas - concepts - dreams - hallucinations - numbers - words - ideologies - beliefs
Yes. Souls, minds, identities, consciences, consciousnesses, rationality, mathematics...and so on.
For me if something actually exists then it possesses physicality even if it is not regarded as physical because of the way physical is defined
That is a demarcation problem where all the non physical things are put in a box labelled mental which is just the physical by another name
Well, I don't know how you would define "physical," but materiality per se doesn't include these things, obviously. Morals are similar: there's no physical substance to them, but as you point out, humans generally seem to recognize their duty to respond to them. That's worthy of note.
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