EVIL!!!!!!!!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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gaffo
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Re: Re:

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:30 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:57 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:13 pm
"The only right anyone has is what he can claim and fight for on his own."

No, your self-ownership, your right to your life, liberty, and property, is intrinsic to you. Whether you can successfully defend yourself or not doesn't negate that self-ownership or right to life, liberty, and property, no, it only means someone one else is wrong in depriving you of yourself (life, liberty, or property).

#

"What natural law gives you the right to life?"

Natural law describes what it 'is (the individual self-owns)'. It doesn't stop fire from singein' my keister or thieves from takin' my wallet. No my keister and wallet have to be defended by me.

#

"Liberty is a legal term and your right to liberty can be taken from you by the law whenever it wants."

Locke would disagree; I do disagree. Liberty is not merely a legal term, and -- yeah -- bad law, by bad law makers, can be exercised against me but that doesn't make it right.

#

"As to property. buy a piece of land anywhere and see how long you can keep it if the governments want to expropriate it."

So, as you reckon it, here is no moral dimension to Reality, no right or wrong. So: should government take you, force you to labor, this is A-OK, yeah? If not: why?

You say: "Depriving another of his life, can sometimes be the right thing to do."

If Reality is amoral: how can it be the right thing or the wrong thing? If it's all subjective: why is it wrong for the fella to rob the bank? Why is it right that I should stop him from killin' a bystander?
You are all over the map.

"it 'is (the individual self-owns)'."

At what age does one become self-owned?
Not a baby, not a toddler not anyone who has not reached the age of reason.

If you see someone about to murder and do not kill him if you can, then not killing him is immoral.

Regards
DL
13, 18, 21 - depends upon The State.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Re:

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:36 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:30 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:57 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:13 pm
"The only right anyone has is what he can claim and fight for on his own."

No, your self-ownership, your right to your life, liberty, and property, is intrinsic to you. Whether you can successfully defend yourself or not doesn't negate that self-ownership or right to life, liberty, and property, no, it only means someone one else is wrong in depriving you of yourself (life, liberty, or property).

#

"What natural law gives you the right to life?"

Natural law describes what it 'is (the individual self-owns)'. It doesn't stop fire from singein' my keister or thieves from takin' my wallet. No my keister and wallet have to be defended by me.

#

"Liberty is a legal term and your right to liberty can be taken from you by the law whenever it wants."

Locke would disagree; I do disagree. Liberty is not merely a legal term, and -- yeah -- bad law, by bad law makers, can be exercised against me but that doesn't make it right.

#

"As to property. buy a piece of land anywhere and see how long you can keep it if the governments want to expropriate it."

So, as you reckon it, here is no moral dimension to Reality, no right or wrong. So: should government take you, force you to labor, this is A-OK, yeah? If not: why?

You say: "Depriving another of his life, can sometimes be the right thing to do."

If Reality is amoral: how can it be the right thing or the wrong thing? If it's all subjective: why is it wrong for the fella to rob the bank? Why is it right that I should stop him from killin' a bystander?
You are all over the map.

"it 'is (the individual self-owns)'."

At what age does one become self-owned?
Not a baby, not a toddler not anyone who has not reached the age of reason.



13, 18, 21 - depends upon The State.
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:57 pm
If you see someone about to murder and do not kill him if you can, then not killing him is immoral.

Regards
DL

depends upon The State. refer to my earlier post on the matter.

inform yourself in which state you can molest small girls and boys and not have interverence from bystanders - dempends upon the state.

same reason in killing, if you kill many.some. do so within the state (preferably in one without the death penality).

or be dumb and cross state borders and let the feds in and procecute you - after the state is done with you - so you get double sentences.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:41 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:37 pm


Evil is not described as a force in any dictionary
in the bible it is - Belail.

the least prayed for the most deserving.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: "What do you use to prove your point?"

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:45 am

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:56 pm
When I can be bothered to: I make appeals to reason, to common sense. That most folks don't wanna reason, and have almost no common sense, is why, nowadays, I mostly can't be bothered.
lol ;-/.

sadly agree.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
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Re: I hear ya...

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:50 am

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:15 pm
I used to be a work in progress, now I'm just old & cranky.

Mebbe the only reason I post anywhere is just as a big middie finger, a reminder that some of us haven't been domesticated.

Or, mebbe, it's just a bad habit.

Mebbe I ought try the patch.
you affirm Inalienable rights of men, so have a good concept there.

surely there is more to life than the middle finger Sir - appeal to your younger self!

- this is more than just the middle finger (I hope!) - isn't there?

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:54 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:01 pm
I hear you buddy.

A cause is a good way to keep us young and feeling that we are a part of a greater whole.

If we are to live on spaceship earth, we should work to protect and purify it.

Protectors are cranky as we hate all that would jeopardize that which we love.

I would be upset with myself a lot more if I did not recognize that hate is born from love.

Regards
DL
Silent running. great movie, and depressing as hell...........

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: "A cause is a good way to keep us young and feeling that we are a part of a greater whole."

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:58 am

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:06 pm
For me, right now, it's my thirteen year old. Makin' him into a self-responsible, self-directing, human being is just about a full-time job.
good deal, i wish you well in your work, he see you as an icon.

as long as he see you as good instead of perfect, it will go well.

.............

well maybe, pier pressure and poor friends may nullify that, but such things are outside of your control, just do your best!

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: "A cause is a good way to keep us young and feeling that we are a part of a greater whole."

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:01 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:26 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:06 pm
For me, right now, it's my thirteen year old. Makin' him into a self-responsible, self-directing, human being is just about a full-time job.
You are a little late as his peers have now taken over most of his teaching.
That does not mean you have lost all influence of course, you always have some with your children, but the fundamentals will come from outside the family and not from within it.

Take that with a grain of salt as I am sure that there are many exceptions now that we keep our kids at home till they are 40. :twisted: :twisted:

Regards
DL
yep.

gaffo
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:07 am

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:29 am
Dachshund wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:07 am
Dear Lacewing, baby...
Listen wiener boy... that was pretty funny! :lol: No, I haven't done acid for a very long time...
acid good the two times i took it -89 last time.

if you got a source share.

lol

gaffo
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:23 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:01 am
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:45 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:35 pm
Atheism does not rationalize any morality at all.
Round and round we go.
Yep. I knew you'd run.

A simple question, and you can't get there. Scared? Maybe. Not thinking logically? Definitely, whether it's from fear or inability, I can't say. But you're trying to redirect again.

Theism's not the topic. Nor is the debate whether Atheism is a "system" or just a single, daft idea. (I opt for the latter.) What matters is only that after one accepts the basic Atheist premise, certain logical consequences inevitably follow: and (unless you can show a counterexample) we can safely say there is not a single moral precept Atheism allows to be true, and not a single human act that Atheism allows us rationally to call "evil."

Consequently, we're talking about what Atheism will or will not rationalize. Try to stay with the program.
hmm......... thread drifted to Atheism.

I'm not Lacwing but i am a Atheist. as a sample of ONE i have no value per the "nature of Atheists"

per Athiesm - this is a dissbelief in your God or any others - such a Vishnu/etc. Athiesm does not offers anything more that the negation of your God or other's gods, not sure why are seem fixated in thinking it offers some sort of "Vision" outside of a dissbelief in your God and other persons gods like Vishnu/etc.

Atheism does not define me (maybe your Christianity defines you? and you assume likewise my Atheism defines me?)

my love of my US Constitution and Locke's concepts of libery define me - if you need to know such things. my athiesm is irrelivent -literally to who and what i value.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:47 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:40 am
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:33 am
So that would then make it amoral by definition would it not as in neither moral or immoral
Not quite.

I'm not speaking of the rightness or wrongness of being an Atheist, but of the logical consequences for someone who has already set their cap that way, and wants to live rationally and consistently with that belief.

A rationally-consistent Atheist can say nothing at all about the concepts "good" or "evil."
not true at all!

I'm a naturalist and a secular humanist (and get PISSED OFF BY CHRISTIANS THAT THINK ATHEISTS HAVE NO MORALS OR VALUE MORALTY!!!! - I call them BIGOTS!!!!!!!!!!!! BTW)

Man - like other animals- dogs cats/etc. have this thing called DNA, and within this thing called DNA are coded instincts, said instincts either are or are not, it they are not - and animal (and species dies out) - it instincts works the animal/species survives as a collective (over millions of years - instincts to protect-foster the pride (per lion for instance). instincts like "morality" to foster the survival of man - from home erectus to homo sapains today.

morality is DNA based instinct, per man its morality.

i believe this as an Athiest, i would believe this if i were a Muslim, Hindu, Jew of Chrsitian too!!!!!!!!!


of course i''d also have to reject that the earth is only 6000 yrs old and reject evolution (but there is nothing in any of those Faiths that demand i be a creationist) = most folks of all Faiths affirm evolution and think the earth is much older than 6000 yr old.

if however you are a creationist and think the world is 6000 yrs old, i'm wasting my time with you here.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:40 am
Neither is a term that has any relevance or reality in the kind of universe Atheism conceives.

?????????

Athiesm is a negation of your God - NOTHING MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Athiesm does not conceive of any kind of universe!

WTF? your views of the nature of atheism as whacked.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:40 am
It would mean that a rationally-consistent Atheist would simply have to say, "I know nothing at all about good or evil; I simply don't believe those terms have any reality."



It would mean that a rationally-consistent Atheist would simply have to say, "I know nothing at all about YHWH; I simply don't believe he has any reality."


that is athiesm - not your good evil bullshit!!!!!!!!! those are outside of atheism and per the individual person - atheist or not.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:40 am
But then these Atheist suppositions (that no God exists and neither is there any reality to "good" or "evil") would also allow evil (if it does exist) to run free. The would be no rational basis for condemning or approving anything morally.



where do you come up with is utter bullshit?

you are clearly a Bigot WRT Athiests!

I'm not a bigot toward you Beleivers, but maybe i should re-esses my views.

I am a Judaic-Buddist, and affirm reciprocity, so may i should become a bigot to counter your bigotry.

I shall have to ponder this matter for future mentality toward Christians.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:40 am
To be sure, not everybody would seize the option of doing "evil"; but some surely would. And Atheists would have no rational basis for objecting whenever they did.
your disparagement make me sick to my stomach.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:53 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:45 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
A rationally consistent Atheist can say nothing at all about the concepts good or evil . Neither is a term that has any relevance or reality in the kind of universe Atheism conceives . It would mean that a rationally consistent Atheist would simply have to say I know nothing at all about good or evil
An atheist who had a moral philosophy that was entirely compatible with their atheism could say a lot more than nothing at all
So instead of continually focusing on just atheism why not examine each of these moral philosophies to see how valid they are
He is clearly a bigot. so has no reason to be an objective learner from others not of his faith.

i get my hackles up when i hear i have no morals since i'm an Athiest - i've heard this SHIT from christiance for decades now.

Bigots is what they are - they know nothing about me as a man, but the second they learn i'm an Athiest they know all about my evil nature.

fuck em.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: What is more evil than an evil theist?

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:10 am

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:57 am


I think some of the writings in The Bible were warnings to theists about what they could become --
yep:

Amos written when the Jews were on top of the world and filled with Pride and the privalege of being God's chosen - amos said - be Humble and that being god chosen is a responibility and God will leave the Jews if they do not measure up and stop being full of pride - and choose the Ethiopeans instead.

jonah - pagan polythiestic fishermen were more "godly" than jonah, who just sleeped through the storm and cursed god for sending him to ninavia (where even the cow are more devout than him!) written just after the book of Ezra (a judiac tribal screed - ezra nullified intermarriage of non-jews with jews) author of Jonah has a universal humanist viewpoint and hated Ezra's tribal judaic work.

job - be humble, do not assume god will favor you just for beleiving in him (no gospel of prospariity) - rain fall on the sinner and the beleiver both. ask not nor demand god to be good to you.

so ya there is good works in the bible.

and filth - like leviticus.

one only need a mind to affirm the good and reject the bad.

or one be bot fundie - mindless and affirm the good and the bad and not understand one from the other.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:19 am

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:57 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:44 pm
I put to you a very simple task, which you are evading: to speak about Atheism from Atheism. It's your own ideology, from your own ideology.
Have I NOT told you that it's NOT an ideology for me? Why are you ignoring this and insisting that I answer your question as it suits you?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:44 pm
But you're afraid to. You can see the train coming down the tunnel, and you're getting the heck off the tracks.
This is you being a manipulative and dishonest idiot. I've clearly responded to you. You do not accept it. Stop making up crap about what other people should or do think. Are you aware that there's a difference between your understanding/reality/beliefs and that of a broader reality and others? Does your ego have no bounds?
don't waste your time Lace (I did not know you were an Athiest prior seeing this thread) - i like Emmanual but he is clearly a bigot toward us. you nor i need to converse with bigot any more then we need to with racists.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:28 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:12 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
why then would you ever want to follow an ideology you are afraid to explore on its own terms
Atheism is a privative not an ideology - there is nothing to follow - it is not a belief system or a philosophy
And there is nothing to explore beyond the non acceptance of the existence of God because this is all it is
exactly, a negation.

not a philosophy.

that is why my Athiesm does not define my character - nor any other Athiests.

its a non-issue WRT to identity.

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