EVIL!!!!!!!!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:27 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:15 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:30 am
do you have a doubt about evolution
Sure. Lots.
ok THANKS for your candor, i knew you were a Christian, but did not know you were a creationist.

now i know and i thank you for that.


per evolution/creation debate - the whole thing bores me to tears and i have no interest and have in interest in debating the issue. just so you know.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:15 pm

Let's start with this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noj4phMT9OE&t=2183s

For the record - for you to know me better, and so allow proper debate (I welcome knowing you better for the same ends)

ends being, we find much in common and can learn from each other - of the opposite, find we have nothing on common and debate is folly.

as for myself, I not the vid you offered is from the Hoover Institution (I recognized the "moderator" - from at leat 10 other vids of the last 5 yr via YT).

I respect the Hoover Institution, as i do the Cato Institute (why they latter has no YT vids............no clue, i wish they would!). I respect both as a Liberal Libritarian (yes we do exist - though sadly in too small numbers).

for the record i LOATHE the Heritage Foundation, and few them as Social Facists.


I'm liberalm so that means i affirm liberal and maybe even sometime socialist ideals, but I'm not partisan (as i said i'm also a Libertarian), and so value both the Hoover and the Cato "think tanks" offerings.


per your YT link, i found the Christipher Loyd (lol) - the dopllgander with the septer - as the most wise one the panel of three, and on point near the conclusion of the vid (56 min mark).

Darkin's view was correct, but limited in time - last century. so not fully correct.


...................

to clarify, i'm will not debate you per "evolution", i have no interest in that war.

HOWEVER, i must demand a clariification of your understandings of "evolution" (is your view of "evolution" the same as mind, and if not why)

My view of Evolution is that it is the same as Natural Selection (but greater - Natural Selections).

I reject the notion of Evolution creating a more successful animal/plant. instead it just created a successful enough thing to servive wel enough to not be killed by bacteria.

Bactertia -since 3 billon yrs ago - to to today are the penical(i fucking HATE English! - being none phonetic (fonetic) and me being Dyslexic- product of survival.

the top dog 3 billion yrs ago as today, just because man did not exist 3 billion yrs ago, and showed up a million yrs ago (depending upon Racist's views of what is human - so i amend a million yrs ago to 1500 yrs ago (and white of course).


to continue, Bacteria rule -then and now! - so the concept of "evolution" as being survival of the fittest (per man is wrong - germs are more fit!!!!!!!(they were the most fit before man, during man and will be after man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

So i affirm Evolution, not as a "lower form progressing" (man is weak!!!!!!!!!! germs rule!!!!!!!) but as a "common sense" expalanation of what we see and know here and now!


---so do you understand the concept of Evoluton, and if you do and are a creationist - i wish you well but will not debate,

do you not have my understanding of evolution? if not lets debate!






Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 pm


Well, Nietzsche famously said, "God is dead." And he did so with great rhetorical and literary flourish that impresses undergrads. He sure sounds like he knows what he's talking about, and he says a lot of brave, bad nonsense that young Atheists tend to admire. But they don't really read him, because he also says that the alleged death of God is going to be overwhelmingly bad for humanity -- it will destroy all meaning and morality, and leave us all spinning through a pointless universe on a journey to death.
well sounds like Nick was a dick and prob his own worst enemy, may your god show mercy upon his lost soul in the afterlife (if deserving).


Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 pm
Still, Nietzsche tries to embrace the opportunity. He says, essentially, since we can't be good or evil anymore, let's be very focused on seizing power.
;-(, power..............not one of the Seven. sadly.

IMO i think it should be one of the Seven, and so 8 sins.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 pm
He think that a thing he calls "the will to power" is the life-force of humanity; and getting power means we need to be bad in very vigorous, purposive and unrestrained ways. If you're like that, you're an übermensch, a "superman,"
yes, I watched Bruno Ganz play Hitler in Downfall (one of the top 1-percent films of all time - Ganz (Austrian? - not German (well of course Hitler was too!!!!!!!!! - lol) played Hitler better than hitler!.............i have no doubt Bruno is a nice man of conscience and just offered his tallent to play the infinate asshole (Hitler) for the film.

he succeeded fully.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 pm
in his vocabulary (Nietzsche apparently did not believe in any "superwomen"; this was for men only).
people are people - good or bad - regardless of age, sex, religion or race.

i don't play identity politics.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 pm
People like Nietzsche primarily because of these features: he boldly insults Theism and God, he stylishly rages against moral restraint and allows us to make up our own choices about "values," and he seems to them to give them what they want -- complete freedom. It's all very adolescent, really. They don't read the dark side of Nietzsche at all. For them, he's a candyman.
I'd like to concur, of what i know of Nick i saw no iterest to learn more - if what you say about him is his views, then i concur with yours.




Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 pm
But Nietzsche would (against his wishes) end up inspiring Hitler. And when you look at Nietzsche's philosophy, you can't find any moral code that would suggest Hitler was wrong to do what he did -- so Hitler is a permissible option within Nietzsche's system.

yes this has been my smell of the man since the 80's!!!!!!!

is this worth a thread sir?????)

I'd welcome a thread about your view of Nick (whom which a know nothing about, but assume you do!, please make a tread on this...........Poles (the many millions murders bet 39-45 appeal to you)).

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 pm
So the effects of his Atheism have been rather bad in practice. But this does not stop many of his admirers from still admiring him.
weak minds are weak minds be they Beleivers are Athiests.

-so reject your implications here (dissparaging athiests).

you are not weak minded, nor am i - you a Christian, me an athiest - both as persons of strong mind (character defined by a nature more central and which/or no god to believe in) - we both affirm the shame principles of charity, mercy, humility and honour.


do you not?

.......................just as there are millions of retrobates (checking the boxes your/i require - check God/no god -etc............ they are sill ASSHOLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! beleivers or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! their nature is BELOW your affirmation they (assholes!!!!!!!!!!!! - by a character that is MORE CORE then your Religious Codex mantra)....so they affirm your god, the fleece you, and kill/ rape etc......................while Christians affirming your god.

lovely.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:45 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:15 pm

But Nietzsche would (against his wishes) end up inspiring Hitler.

how do you know? do you know - from his writings, his character would not affirm Hitler's view of "reality".


I know nothing about Nick - nor care to, i know more about Hitler and have more interest in knowing his mind since recently (Trump, Minitrump - Boris (pure thug peroging parlement to deny a debate in said body, (and lying to the Queen - next Tuesday the UK sc court shall rule as to whether then affirm thuggery/Hilter or the Rule of Law) 1/3 of folks in american, england and europe affirm Hitler mindset over nicks.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:15 pm
And when you look at Nietzsche's philosophy, you can't find any moral code that would suggest Hitler was wrong to do what he did -- so Hitler is a permissible option within Nietzsche's system.
so Nick is Hitler/Pol Pot /etc................

nice to know.

Rule Britania!!!!!!!!!!!!! briecshit rulz..............along with Hitler.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:15 pm
So the effects of his Atheism have been rather bad in practice.
ok, his atheism.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:15 pm
But this does not stop many of his admirers from still admiring him.
sheep do as sheep are.

Christians - 80percent protestant in 1933 just sat there when Hitler ruined Germany's prior Parlementary Republic.

same for the Catholics in Ruwanda in the mid 90's

same for the orthodox in Serbia.


none of which are Athiests!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all of which were Christians and SHEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so who is the author of death in this world?

Christians - Lutheran (1933 Germany), Othodox Christians (Serbs-90's), Roman Catholics (Hutu's 90's).

so shut the fuck up about Atheism as immorality asswipe!!!!!!!!!!!


you really piss me off - so the insult, you have a mind, but have willfull blinders (so just another Serb thug? - too cowardly to have hears to hear and expand understanding?).

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:17 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:27 am
per evolution/creation debate - the whole thing bores me to tears and i have no interest and have in interest in debating the issue. just so you know.
I didn't bring it up. It's not my area of interest either. I know stuff about it, I just think other things are much more interesting.
I'm liberalm so that means i affirm liberal and maybe even sometime socialist ideals, but I'm not partisan (as i said i'm also a Libertarian), and so value both the Hoover and the Cato "think tanks" offerings.
I would say accept what is right, and leave what is not. It doesn't really matter who says it.
HOWEVER, i must demand a clariification of your understandings of "evolution" (is your view of "evolution" the same as mind, and if not why)
I really don't care too much about it. Micro evolution, development or adaptation within a species, has some evidence for it. Macro evolution, the idea of one species transforming into others, has many very big problems that it has not even begun to solve.
My view of Evolution is that it is the same as Natural Selection (but greater - Natural Selections).
Darwin thought NS was a mechanism by which evolution might take place, but not a synonym for evolution. It was only one piece of a much larger theory, so far as he was concerned.
---so do you understand the concept of Evoluton, and if you do and are a creationist - i wish you well but will not debate,
Yes, I understand the theory. No, I'm not terribly impressed with it. And no, I have no interest in debating it. It's already being done very well by people other than me.
-so reject your implications here (dissparaging athiests).
Well,I don't disparage Atheists. I challenge Atheism. That's quite different.

I'm not interested in insulting people groups, whoever they are. But I do think all ideologies, even simplistic ones like Atheism, owe us all to ante up and prove their merits by facing rational and critical questioning.

And if they can't stand up to that, then I think they're unworthy of the credence of any of us, regardless of who we are.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:45 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:15 pm

But Nietzsche would (against his wishes) end up inspiring Hitler.
how do you know? do you know - from his writings, his character would not affirm Hitler's view of "reality".
I know because Hitler borrowed a bunch of his basic conceptions from Nietzsche, and he admired Nietzsche. I also note that nothing in Nietzsche's ideology makes being Hitler a "bad" thing to be. As I wrote,
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:15 pm
And when you look at Nietzsche's philosophy, you can't find any moral code that would suggest Hitler was wrong to do what he did -- so Hitler is a permissible option within Nietzsche's system.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:15 pm
So the effects of his Atheism have been rather bad in practice.
ok, his atheism.
Or Stalin's. Or Mao's. Or Pol Pot's. Or Castro's. Or a lot of people's, really.
Christians - 80percent protestant in 1933...
Actually, Protestants were 63% of Germany's population, not 80%; and tragically, most were nominalists of the Lutheran, Reformed and United branches. these denominations were heavily infected by a false doctrine called "Supersessionism," which accounts for their willingness to go along with Hitler's program. I'm none of these denominations, and no Supersessionist.

That these nominal Germans did not take their Christianity so seriously as they took their Nationalism is very evident. Hitler's Germany was characterized by a very shallow and inauthentic type of religiosity. The problem was not that his people were too Christian, but that they were nowhere near Christian enough. And you can see this because there is no fair reading of the Bible that would allow or approve what Hitler was or did, least of all the extermination of the nation of Messiah.

Against these were ranged the Christians with whom I would identify.

Now, I could try to explain the difference between nominal religiosity and genuine Christianity, but I'm not sure you'd be wanting to hear about it. Suffice to say, calling oneself a horse doesn't make one a horse: and calling oneself a "Christian" doesn't make it true either. What makes it true is what Jesus Christ Himself said made it true:

“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter"

So it's by what people DO that you know whether or not they are actually Christians, not by what they happen to claim. At least, that's how Jesus Christ Himself told us to judge.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:04 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:17 am
Micro evolution, development or adaptation within a species, has some evidence for it. Macro evolution, the idea of one species transforming into others, has many very big problems that it has not even begun to solve.
agreed, NS is specific and does not address the how animals transend their species to become other species.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:17 am
---so do you understand the concept of Evoluton, and if you do and are a creationist - i wish you well but will not debate,
Yes, I understand the theory. No, I'm not terribly impressed with it. And no, I have no interest in debating it. It's already being done very well by people other than me.
fiar enough, i have no interest in debating evolution either - as long as person is good and affirms being and doing good, i couldn't care less if they affirm evolution or not.

I think you are a good guy, so if you are a creationist (you were not clear on this - but seemed to imply this), fine by me.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:17 am
-so reject your implications here (dissparaging athiests).
Well,I don't disparage Atheists. I challenge Atheism. That's quite different.
yes that is different, thanks for clarifying the matter. I've been posting here for 2 yrs now and several times stated as an Athiest that that philosophy in and of itself offers nothing other than a denial of God existing.

Athiesm is nihilism of god/s - and if one is only an Athiest and nothing more, then more pity them.

I value other things such as Rule of Law, my US Constitution, moral conduct/etc............all via my conscience and without a belief in your God (or other's gods).

IF what you said above is True - then I concur fully, but i noted a few post from you months ago that implied Atheists have no conscience and so are not moral (or less moral than christians) - if i was wrong on that observation, and i hope i was, then i appologize in having that view of your veiw of Athiests.

was i wrong?

-------------------

thanks for your civil and apt reply to me Sir - you answered my inqueries fully.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:11 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am


Or Stalin's. Or Mao's. Or Pol Pot's. Or Castro's. Or a lot of people's, really.
Stalin was a christian who studied to become a Priest!

Pol Pot was a Buddist!

Torchamoda(sp) (a Christain!)- well you know his name from the historybooks via Catholic Torchure of thousands 800 yrs ago.


point being Character transends faith/non faith.

equal number of assholes/killers/sycopants - be they Athiests, Buddist, Hindus (Modi anyone?), or Christians (Pence! - who now looks to be a criminal who has no respect for the Rule of Law/my Constitution, though a self professed christian!).


carry on..................

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am

Actually, Protestants were 63% of Germany's population, not 80%;

thanks for correction - i do value learning sir. as i do history, one cannot become wise without knowing history and wisdom is the greatest Virtue (yes even above Love (the 2nd) IMO).

Wisdom, or to become wiser tommorrow than you are today, is a life long goal of mine, and so i strive for it. thanfully i like history is a subject in and of itself, and that it ads me in becoming wiser is i learn more is a nice perk.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am
and tragically, most were nominalists of the Lutheran, Reformed and United branches. these denominations were heavily infected by a false doctrine called "Supersessionism," which accounts for their willingness to go along with Hitler's program. I'm none of these denominations, and no Supersessionist.
GREAT! - i love to learn, i know nothing about "supresessionism (never even heard of it!!!!!!!! - I'm ignorant (thats ok - I know i am, and value learning - so tell me about this thing and what it is - i hope you are willing to help me in my struggle for wisdom's sake).


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am
That these nominal Germans did not take their Christianity so seriously as they took their Nationalism is very evident. Hitler's Germany was characterized by a very shallow and inauthentic type of religiosity. The problem was not that his people were too Christian, but that they were nowhere near Christian enough. And you can see this because there is no fair reading of the Bible that would allow or approve what Hitler was or did, least of all the extermination of the nation of Messiah.

Against these were ranged the Christians with whom I would identify.
sounds like you are talking about Hypocracy - Jesus hate Hypocrites (hated them more than anything else (Amos did to BTW - just read Amo's work it you doubt he hated hypocrites less than Jesus - both hated them infinately) more than Pagans.





Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am
Now, I could try to explain the difference between nominal religiosity and genuine Christianity, but I'm not sure you'd be wanting to hear about it. .
I'm hear to "Talk" but also to learn/understand other's mentalities. My ego is sound and why i have no issue with view counter to mine - i welcome other perspectives, and if during the course of life i may have discounted views today - tommorrow (you god willing i become wiser than i am today - those same views i may use become a better man than i am today).

so ya, I'm not into my own "eco-chamber", school me on your view of the difference of "nominal religiosity" (i.e - I'm thinking Hypocrisy myself) and genuine Christianity (for the record, I know much about your Faith - and have a bias against Saul (phoney opportunist) - I value James, Jude, Mark the most in the NT, and Job, Jonah and Amos in the OT.

I laothe Paul - "faith alone" salvation.............a concept that Jesus would never affirm!

Jesus hated Hypocrites and in the real world when the rubber meat the road (one is tested in this life) thier actions speak loauder than thier words.

so "works" mattered to Jesus, unlike Saul the opportunist.

BTW Christianity died 1500 yrs ago - its Pualianity now. Saul's letters and views rule your Faith, not Jesus' nor his brother's James and Jude - two works mostly ignored now by your Faith.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am
So it's by what people DO that you know whether or not they are actually Christians, not by what they happen to claim. At least, that's how Jesus Christ Himself told us to judge.
I agree fully!

--------------------------------------------

I noted this in your reply:


And you can see this because there is no fair reading of the Bible that would allow or approve what Hitler was or did, least of all the extermination of the nation of Messiah.

I find this odd - that you mention the Jews, so they must mean something to you via the "big picture", welcome your view of Judaism/Israel (do you equate one/both/ or not related?).

I personally affirm the Judaism as a conduct for my life (Reciprocity and hating the hypocrite (Jonah/amos - the in for former "jonah himself - the books' namesake! was the hypocrite! - cursing the plant his god allowed to shade him in niniva! - and even then jonah only curseds the cows (animals for godly than him!) and leaned no humility even by the books end)

but i loathe Israel - its a Fourth Reich, denying arabs in the WB (which israel illegally occupied via the 4th genetva accords - which they are a signatory of!) equal rights.

Israel is a racist state that denies rights and dignaty to non-jews - both in the WB and Israel proper (yes they affirm most rights to Israel Arabs - but not the full 100-percent of the Judaic Israelis have).

Israel = South Africa of the 80's - and "christians" today supporting such an evil (YES EVIL - Naziyahoo 15 yrs now!......just worse even than yrs ago......) just becuase they are "jews" (when amos would have washed his hands of Israelis - and called the Ethiopeans his brothers instead - read the book, its a reference to other people's become God's chosen when the God's patience ends (yes being God chosen is a RESPONIBILITY - not a PRIVALEGE - and Amos stated in his work that God will REMOVE the Jews as "his people" and choose another if/when his patiences end/they do not repent.......i,e the Ethopeans).


fk Israel and fk Naziyahoo.

.................

thanks for reply BTW.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:11 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am
Or Stalin's. Or Mao's. Or Pol Pot's. Or Castro's. Or a lot of people's, really.
Stalin was a christian who studied to become a Priest!
Pol Pot was a Buddist!
All became avowed Atheists and Communists before they began killing people. Add Mao to that list. And Maduro, and Ceausescu, and Milosevic, and the Kim Jongs. And you forgot Castro. All went the same route: Atheism, then Communism, then murder.
Torchamoda(sp) (a Christain!)- well you know his name from the historybooks via Catholic Torchure of thousands 800 yrs ago.
Torquemada was a Catholic, as you say. I am not. But it is alleged he was associated with the killing of perhaps as many as 2,000 people. Very bad.

But Stalin killed about 20 million. And Mao killed many more, though we can't get accurate numbers there. Pol Pot killed around 2 million...in fact, death statistics show that there is at least a 52% chance that any Atheist despot will kill at least 250,000.

So yeah, Torquemada was a bad guy. But his bloody hands don't wash the hands of these famous Atheists.

In addition, to say Torquemada was a "Christian," you would need to know what a "Christian" actually is, in order to make this judgment. And saying, "Well, anybody who says they are, is," is not a good criterion, as even secular scholars of religion will tell you. Torquemada was no Christian.
equal number of assholes/killers/sycopants - be they Athiests, Buddist, Hindus (Modi anyone?), or Christians

Well, that may be nice to think, but it's demonstrably, obviously and statistically untrue.

Take a religion like Mennonism, Quakerism, or Anabaptism...they have, historically killed no one at all, started no wars, pogroms or purges, mounted no crusades and conducted no witch hunts -- their actions have been historically charitable and unselfish, serving the secular world without prejudice to their own. They have singularly promoted prison reform, educational and medical reforms, child labour reforms, relief work, substance abuse programs, ophanages and other such social improvement initiatives. That's all to the good -- even if one is an Atheist.

On the other hand, secular ideologues in the last century alone killed at least 142 million people. And that's by secular account, not from religious sources.

So it's not all the same. It does matter what a person believes.

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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:33 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:55 pm
GREAT! - i love to learn, i know nothing about "supresessionism (never even heard of it!!!!!!!! - I'm ignorant (thats ok - I know i am, and value learning - so tell me about this thing and what it is - i hope you are willing to help me in my struggle for wisdom's sake).
Well, Supersessionism is actually something every Jewish person should know about, for their own sake. Essentially, it's the erroneous belief that God has rejected the Jews because of their rejection of Christ. It's not taught anywhere in the Bible -- it's an extrapolation or imaginary theology, rather than a Biblical one. But historically, it's the reason that some nominally "Christian" groups have been associated with anti-semitic attitudes and beliefs.

That's why I wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am
That these nominal Germans did not take their Christianity so seriously as they took their Nationalism is very evident. Hitler's Germany was characterized by a very shallow and inauthentic type of religiosity. The problem was not that his people were too Christian, but that they were nowhere near Christian enough. And you can see this because there is no fair reading of the Bible that would allow or approve what Hitler was or did, least of all the extermination of the nation of Messiah.
so ya, I'm not into my own "eco-chamber", school me on your view of the difference of "nominal religiosity" (i.e - I'm thinking Hypocrisy myself) and genuine Christianity
Well, there's a lot to say about this, but let's make is simple for memory's sake. Jesus Himself said this:
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit."

And

"Many will say to Me on [the Judgment] day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’"

In other words, He identifies the false prophets from the truth-tellers based on what they do. It's not the people who SAY they are Christians who are; it's the people who do what was instructed by the apolitical, pacifist carpenter Jewish man from Galilee who told them what a Christian was really to be.
I laothe Paul - "faith alone" salvation.............a concept that Jesus would never affirm!
And yet, Jesus said, "

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

The word in the Greek original manuscripts here translated as "believe" is precisely the same word as translated "have faith" elsewhere in the Bible. So Jesus did also affirm it.

However, you're right when you say, "Jesus hated hypocrisy." And you're right when you add, "in the real world when the rubber meat the road (one is tested in this life) thier actions speak loauder than thier words." Indeed so. A "faith" that has no "action" with it is no faith at all.

And that's the problem, as Jesus said it would be: people would claim to be His who were not actually living that way. But it's one thing to fool people; it's another to try to put a trick like that over on God...
Pualianity now. Saul's letters and views rule your Faith, not Jesus' nor his brother's James and Jude - two works mostly ignored now by your Faith.
Well, I can safely say that's not my faith. I know James and Jude very well.
--------------------------------------------

I noted this in your reply:


And you can see this because there is no fair reading of the Bible that would allow or approve what Hitler was or did, least of all the extermination of the nation of Messiah.

I find this odd - that you mention the Jews, so they must mean something to you via the "big picture", welcome your view of Judaism/Israel (do you equate one/both/ or not related?).
Jesus was, and is, a Jew. Not only that, but He was and is the Messiah of Israel. He is also, in Jewish Scriptures, the One in whom "all the nations of the world would be blessed," so He's the Saviour of the Gentiles too.

Speaking personally, I am conscious of my very great debt to the Jewish people. They gave me my Scriptures and the Person who has meant most to me in my life. I will never be able to pay back a debt like that. But I certainly will never forget I owe it.
thanks for reply BTW.
But of course. Thanks for the conversation.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:23 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:11 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:46 am
Or Stalin's. Or Mao's. Or Pol Pot's. Or Castro's. Or a lot of people's, really.
Stalin was a christian who studied to become a Priest!
Pol Pot was a Buddist!
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
All became avowed Atheists and Communists before they began killing people.

non-secuitor ther nature was difined prior. assholes by 20.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
Add Mao to that list. And Maduro, and Ceausescu, and Milosevic, and the Kim Jongs. And you forgot Castro. All went the same route: Atheism, then Communism, then murder.
add the Doctor Redivan Karidich to the list too!!!!!!!!!!!

you point? the above persons were/are assholes - both when Beleivers and after?

agreed.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
Torquemada was a Catholic, as you say. I am not. .
I don't give a shit what your faith is. your character is beyond your faith.

i know your character, its good (but you are wrong in thinking being a Christian defines it!!!!!!!!!).

asshole are as assholes do, be they Yemeni Muslims, Indian Modi-ite Hindu or Westborrow-trite Christians.

the global percentages of moral and immoral assholes are stable across time and place.

the same percentage in Yemen "over there with another faith" as right here in American.

80/20. most folks are good (though flawed) - the other 1/5 are just assholes through and through (and yes i've read 1/3 of the koran - i did find that faith as lacking (but fully reject your premise that that faith (or the better one Christianity (I've read some of your bible too BTW) define's one's character.............

and asshole by his/her nature is made regardless of the faith he/she professes (religion/culture does not define moralitiy of the populus).

Character is defined by the nature of the man, not by the religion nor culture he was born into.

that is why the percentages are equal - same number of assholes in Saudi Arabia as America.

and why the same number of Rightious/honourable


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
But Stalin killed about 20 million. And Mao killed many more, though we can't get accurate numbers there.
yes more. numbers are still not known (by the west at least). prob not even in the East - given the yrs and coverup and gov of China's revisisionism.........those that would know are now dead probably.

but ya Mao - even more than Stalin, who was "worse" than Hitler in the body count.

your post show you do know history, and so i thank you for being educated here. i welcome future disscusion.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
Pol Pot killed around 2 million..

yes accurate num, you do know some history, i thank you for being knowledgable.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
.in fact, death statistics show that there is at least a 52% chance that any Atheist despot will kill at least 250,000.
?????? tell me more, and why my Athiesm allows me to kill 1/4 mill if given the chance.

lol.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
So yeah, Torquemada was a bad guy. But his bloody hands don't wash the hands of these famous Atheists.
indeed, did i claim so?

my claim is character is outside/underneath perticular faith's those assholes my have proffessed or not proffessed.


so faith is literally irrelivant to mass murder (i.e the faith of the head of state is irrelivent - if the head of state is an asshole)


and no a good theology - like christianity cannot reform an born asshole any more than can a bad religion - like islam can make a good man bad.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
In addition, to say Torquemada was a "Christian," you would need to know what a "Christian" actually is, in order to make this judgment.



I good tree bears good fruit, and bad one a bad fruit.

be it Atheist, Hindu, Christian, Judaic, or Muslim.

- and yes i understand the tenents of Christianity, and affirm them as good.

Torquemada was a CHRISTIAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and don't give me the - he was a Catholic not a Christian bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!! Catholics are Christians!/

He just happened to be an Asshole first and a Christian second.

like all the Atheists didtators you hate so much - but unlike you i see them as being assholes first and athiests second.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
And saying, "Well, anybody who says they are, is," is not a good criterion, as even secular scholars of religion will tell you. Torquemada was no Christian.


a good tree bears good fruit. and bad does not.

not letting you off the hook to dissown Torquemada, he was a Christian asshole - and so one of YOURS deal with him!



Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
So it's not all the same. It does matter what a person believes.
who you are matters not what you believe. belief in a particular faith is cheap - as assholes like Torquemada being a Christian makes clear.

all assholes hide behind their faith and use said to justify thier murdering....they muder due to their character, not their faith. their faith is irrelivant, only relivence is their character!

- so i doe not matter "what a person believes" per the proper God/s.

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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm

gaffo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:23 am
non-secuitor ther nature was difined prior. assholes by 20.
Maybe, G. But this seems to be your answer to everything an Atheist dictator can possibly do:" it wasn't his Atheism, he was an a-hole." You use it on every occasion in your message.

However, the same excuse works for everything. It wasn't that Hitler was a Nazi, he was an a-hole. It wasn't that Dahmer was a cannibal, he was an a-hole. It wasn't that Jimmy Savile was a predatory pedophile, he was an a-hole. And so on. So it's no explanation of anything. When, as you can see, the same strategy would outright excuse things known to be evil, such as Nazism, cannibalism and predatory pedophilia, you can be sure it's no explanation of Atheism's problems.

What needs explanation is why, in particular, the Atheist leaders have been far and way -- it's not even close -- the most homicidal group of people in the history of the planet, statistically. That needs serious asking.
?????? tell me more, and why my Athiesm allows me to kill 1/4 mill if given the chance.
Sure. It's very easy actually.

If you're an Atheist, then you know that morality is optional. It's entirely subjective anyway. Moreover, if you're an Atheist leader, then you have the task of taking your society "forward" in some way. So you have to have a vision of where you want to go. But it will have to be your own vision, one that others may not share; because Atheism does not specify any vision of the good society. You have to make one up yourself.

But what do you do with the people who won't go there? You're aiming at making your society "better," as you see it; and these people are preventing you from doing that effectively. Well, you have an important task to do, a problem standing in the way, and no moral reason why you shouldn't deal with it in an immediate way.

Time to open the prison camps. Or time to spend a bullet, which is much cheaper and faster.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm
In addition, to say Torquemada was a "Christian," you would need to know what a "Christian" actually is, in order to make this judgment.

I good tree bears good fruit, and bad one a bad fruit.
Right! You've got it. That's exactly the test Christ said we should use. If a man says he's a "Christian," but does not " bear the fruit" of a Christian, then he has no more right to that title than I have to calling myself the Emperor of Tibet.
not letting you off the hook to dissown Torquemada, he was a Christian asshole - and so one of YOURS deal with him!
Then you are not agreeing that Christ has the right to define who a "Christian" genuinely is. And to such a position, there can be no answer but that you're simply wrong. I'll go with Christ on this one, and happily.
- so i doe not matter "what a person believes" per the proper God/s.
Actually, it seems that that's pretty much the most important question.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:32 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
gaffo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:23 am
non-secuitor ther nature was difined prior. assholes by 20.
Maybe, G. But this seems to be your answer to everything an Atheist dictator can possibly do:" it wasn't his Atheism, he was an a-hole." You use it on every occasion in your message.

However, the same excuse works for everything. It wasn't that Hitler was a Nazi, he was an a-hole. It wasn't that Dahmer was a cannibal, he was an a-hole. It wasn't that Jimmy Savile was a predatory pedophile, he was an a-hole. And so on. So it's no explanation of anything.
yes all asshole regardless of their religion.

its an explaination of character/or more aptly lack of.

they were Christian, Buddist/etc assholes that got the seat of power and murdered millions.



its not a cop out as you seem to think.

my argument is assholisness overpower Faith (which ever - Hindu, Christian, muslim.etc...........)


one's character (or lack of) is more primer to what makes a man than the faith he identifies with.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
When, as you can see,
no i dont see.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
the same strategy would outright excuse things known to be evil, such as Nazism, cannibalism and predatory pedophilia, ,

no dont see.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
you can be sure it's no explanation of Atheism's problems.
????????? no clue of what you are trying to say here.

what "problems"?

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
What needs explanation is why, in particular, the Atheist leaders have been far and way -- it's not even close -- the most homicidal group of people in the history of the planet, statistically. That needs serious asking.
if Athiests murdered more than others, then not as i said before - Pol Pot was a Buddist, Stalin was a russian orthodox christian, torq was a roman catholic.

Radivan Karadich/Milosovich were????????? (I'm asking you here - both being born in Serbia i would assume they were Eastern Orthodox Christian - educate me here on both of them).

killers in Ruwanda? - i assume they were Catholic Christians, being from a culture that was formerly French catholic.

if you can show to me that Rad, Milo and the Ruwandan thugs were devout Athiests, then do so.

of not affirm their Christianity bubba.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
?????? tell me more, and why my Athiesm allows me to kill 1/4 mill if given the chance.
Sure. It's very easy actually.
ok, ezey pezzy.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
If you're an Atheist, then you know that morality is optional.
wow, wrong allready.

you as an non-atheist assume more about me an athiest and what atheism is about than is tollerable.

Morality is inborn in me as a man. my conscience!

which is a part of me outside of your Faith or any other Faith.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
It's entirely subjective anyway.

NO! moraltiy is a Truth!

there is a Right and Wrong.

I don't need your God to tell me...............and as said Milo/etc good christians affirming your God ignored morality.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
Moreover, if you're an Atheist leader, then you have the task of taking your society "forward" in some way. So you have to have a vision of where you want to go.
ok , yes, as President of the US and Athiest. as that nations leader i would affirm the Rule of Law per my Constitution, and strive to promote Universal Humanism (colorblind society/melting pot) for America.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
But it will have to be your own vision, one that others may not share; because Atheism does not specify any vision of the good society. .
correct!!!!!!!!!! I have "my own vision" due to me being ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not because i'm a fucking Athiest!!!!!!!!!

Athiesm is a negation of your god!!!!!!!!!

nothing more!!!!

it offers no theology nor code of conduct in and of itself!!!!!!! its not the buggyman bubba!


assholes of many faith or non are the buggyman bubba.

not atheism as a negation of your personal god.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
You have to make one up yourself.
as do you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

non sequitor.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
But what do you do with the people who won't go there? You're aiming at making your society "better," as you see it; and these people are preventing you from doing that effectively. Well, you have an important task to do, a problem standing in the way, and no moral reason why you shouldn't deal with it in an immediate way.
Well sir, that is where character rather than faith comes into play.

me? being an Atheist of good character would as president allow thugs and nazis to obtruct my vision of a untribal universal man, due to affirming my constitution's 1st amendment of free speech. so i would just allow it and go to bed with a headache.


and you being a Christian President?

if of my character would do the same, but if you are christian with Milosvish's character you would round them up and kill them! while being a christian!!!!!!....."kill them all and let God sort them out".

2 can play your game bubba.




Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
In addition, to say Torquemada was a "Christian," you would need to know what a "Christian" actually is, in order to make this judgment.


nope, to be a Christian or Muslim etc is from the one self proclaiming.

the historical record is clear, Torquemada was a self professed Christian.

if you have a problem with that take it up with him, not me. I take him at is word, he was a Christian.

deal with it.

I don't play "True Scottman" games.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
I good tree bears good fruit, and bad one a bad fruit.
Right! You've got it.[/quote]

Of course i've "god it" my atheism did not kill my conscience!


Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
That's exactly the test Christ said we should use. If a man says he's a "Christian," but does not " bear the fruit" of a Christian, then he has no more right to that title than I have to calling myself the Emperor of Tibet.
i agree,

and Stalin, Torq, Milo, PolPot were Thiests (self proclaimed),

and? your point?

oh god not the "True Scottman" bullshit again. not into that argument. its all wet.

they claim to be what they claimed, then murded millions.

deal with it.



not letting you off the hook to dissown Torquemada, he was a Christian asshole - and so one of YOURS deal with him!
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
Then you are not agreeing that Christ has the right to define who a "Christian" genuinely is. And to such a position, there can be no answer but that you're simply wrong. I'll go with Christ on this one, and happily.
no i'm not saying that!

I' affirming your Christ per the tree that bear fruit!!!!

it you that as the athiest bias and instists upon the top mass muderers being in fact self proffesed Christians and Buddists as in fact Athiests!


I are blinded by your hate of Athiesm and an erronous view of its simple negation in a beleif in your god ans somehow imparting an evil nature upon the subject of that athiesm.

you are full on wrong!

assholes are the same in number all over the world - be they Athiests.Hindu or christian/etc,,,,,,,,,,,,, 1/5 since the dawn of time.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
- so i doe not matter "what a person believes" per the proper God/s.
Actually, it seems that that's pretty much the most important question.
I don;t get you (we live on other planets).

for me what god you belevie in is irrelivent to your character, and why i've had best friends that were Athiets, Jewish (othrodox with lockes) Hindu and Muslim. they were my friends due to their character.

I've know some asshole Mulsims, Hindus, Chrsitians, Athiests and Jews also, we can talk about ther lack of character if you wish.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:06 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:32 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
gaffo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:23 am
non-secuitor ther nature was difined prior. assholes by 20.
Maybe, G. But this seems to be your answer to everything an Atheist dictator can possibly do:" it wasn't his Atheism, he was an a-hole." You use it on every occasion in your message.

However, the same excuse works for everything. It wasn't that Hitler was a Nazi, he was an a-hole. It wasn't that Dahmer was a cannibal, he was an a-hole. It wasn't that Jimmy Savile was a predatory pedophile, he was an a-hole. And so on. So it's no explanation of anything.
its not a cop out as you seem to think.
I think it's worse. It's an excuse for the ideologies that led them to do what they did. You are choosing not to examine what they believed, and instead imagine they were all just negative accidents: "a-holes." And you're never going to see what made them what they became, if you don't look at what they believed.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
you can be sure it's no explanation of Atheism's problems.
????????? no clue of what you are trying to say here.

what "problems"?
Over 100 million dead bodies in the last century alone...all due to Atheist ideologues. And you want to say, "Well, they just happened to be a-holes, and that' all there is to know about that"?

The problem, then, is that you have no way of predicting or avoiding their type in the future. If "Well, he was an a-hole" is you answer, then it means you can neither predict nor avoid when the next "a-hole" will kill more people. You'll never figure out why he did it.
Radivan Karadich/Milosovich were????????? (I'm asking you here - both being born in Serbia i would assume they were Eastern Orthodox Christian - educate me here on both of them).
A man doesn't become a "Christian" by saying "I'm a Christian" anymore than a man becomes a ham sandwich by saying, "I'm a ham sandwich." Christ Himself gave us the right test to know when somebody was telling the truth, and when he was lying -- "by their fruits (their actions) you shall know them," he said.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
If you're an Atheist, then you know that morality is optional.
wow, wrong allready.
Okay, prove it. Name just one moral precept that an Atheist is obliged to follow. Any one. Just one.
Morality is inborn in me as a man. my conscience!
I agree you have a conscience. That's just one more thing that tells you Atheism is untrue; because Atheism offers no explanation for why such a thing as a conscience should ever exist. If there's no God, there's no objectivity to morality. So why should you have a faculty within you (conscience) that keeps telling you things are "wrong" when nothing is objective wrong, or "right" when nothing is objectively right?

If Atheists is true, the conscience is just an instinct that misfires; a delusion about what is actually the case.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
It's entirely subjective anyway.
NO! moraltiy is a Truth!
Not according to the world as Atheism sees it. There is no moral truth, according to Atheism.
there is a Right and Wrong.
I agree...but Atheism means there is not.
Athiesm is a negation of your god!!!!!!!!!nothing more!!!!
That is true. And because of that, Atheism offers nothing. It has no grounds for morality, no suggestion of meaning for life, and no hope for the future. It's just a pure negative. It's the most fruitless, dead and dusty of all creeds.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
In addition, to say Torquemada was a "Christian," you would need to know what a "Christian" actually is, in order to make this judgment.


nope, to be a Christian or Muslim etc is from the one self proclaiming.
No good as a definition. As I say, a man calling himself a ham sandwich is merely a lunatic...not a ham sandwich. And a man who says, "I'm a Christian" but acts like he's not, is not...according to Christ Himself.

Even specialists in secular Religious Studies do not any longer consider the self-identification definition any good.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
I good tree bears good fruit, and bad one a bad fruit.
Right! You've got it.
Of course i've "god it" my atheism did not kill my conscience!
It would have...if Atheism were true. But I think you sense it's not; or else you've never thought through it's logical implications. That's why you still have a conscience. If you had thought it through, you'd have "debunked" your conscience long ago, and decided it was lying to you.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
That's exactly the test Christ said we should use. If a man says he's a "Christian," but does not " bear the fruit" of a Christian, then he has no more right to that title than I have to calling myself the Emperor of Tibet.
i agree,
Well, then...the "self-identification" definition is no good, as you and I have both now said.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm
Then you are not agreeing that Christ has the right to define who a "Christian" genuinely is. And to such a position, there can be no answer but that you're simply wrong. I'll go with Christ on this one, and happily.
no i'm not saying that!
Oh? You ARE agreeing that Christ has the right to define who's a Christian and who's not? Then we agree. He has that right.
for me what god you belevie in is irrelivent to your character,
The only way that could be is if you've never had something you REALLY believed. Because if you believed in it, you'd act as if you did, and follow through on the full logical implications of it. And that would determine what "character" you had.

gaffo
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:06 am
gaffo wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:32 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm

Maybe, G. But this seems to be your answer to everything an Atheist dictator can possibly do:" it wasn't his Atheism, he was an a-hole." You use it on every occasion in your message.

However, the same excuse works for everything. It wasn't that Hitler was a Nazi, he was an a-hole. It wasn't that Dahmer was a cannibal, he was an a-hole. It wasn't that Jimmy Savile was a predatory pedophile, he was an a-hole. And so on. So it's no explanation of anything.
its not a cop out as you seem to think.
I think it's worse. It's an excuse for the ideologies that led them to do what they did. You are choosing not to examine what they believed, and instead imagine they were all just negative accidents: "a-holes." And you're never going to see what made them what they became, if you don't look at what they believed.
I know you are a good man and you think the same of me - in spite of our differing Beliefs - you affirm YHWH and his son, i do not. but both us being good men see that in each other.

per this "debate" - its really simple since conversing with you, you view Belief in God (leaving out which one for simplicity here) somehow makes a person more moral. i.e you view belief makes the man. whereas i believe the man was made yrs earlier in childhood and whatever beliefs they affirm latter is irrelivent, their nature was fixed earlier! and any beliefs they adopt later is fuffery on their part (so instead of just raping and pillaging while denying God, they instead pick out scripture to justify the same acts claiming it God's will).

as i said many times - asshole is as asshole does, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Muslim or Atheist - and their nature is FIXED prior to any faith or non-faith they adopt latter.

You view is opposite i understand sir, just disagree!

BTW I do affirm and aplaud(sp) REdemption, and when it occurs (a man of low caracter finds the insight/power of your God - to renounce himself to become more than he was prior). such a thing touches my own conscience, and affirm it and believe it is a pwwerfull thing, but it is very rare, and an exception to the rule of once an asshole always an asshole - nor is that rare converstion due to any Religous belief system, its a product of the mans entire life conduct up until that time of his conversion (salvation actually), and such salvation requires self knowleldge of reflection - many folks lack introspection to for salvation due to inate nature - assholes i think are in that primary camp to no self introspection to hear that inner voice of the moral soul we are born with regardless of particular dogmatic religious belief systems (which IMO are irrelivent to the nature of any/all men).............and why most asshole are born and die with their same nature.

I affirm the exceptions! but their numbers are too small to affirm your thesis that Chirstian theology - being moral - if adopted will male an asshole moral (the asshole will just adopt the trappings withing understanding nor apprecating the true nature of your religion - humility, charity, compassion, wisdom) for self gain.

sadly we are different planets per this debate, we have bot made our view clear, and we reject each others view on the matter.

I'm ok with that because i know you are not an asshole, but honest in your views - i just do not share them.

BTW I like most of your Religion's tenents (as i do Judaism).

Peace to you - i know you are a good man because the 2 yrs i've been here you've never made fun of my dyslexia nor bullied me just because we disargeed.

I look forward with conversing with you more in the future - on this particualr topic i think we have have said enough - both of us have clarified our views and we must agree to disagree.

I thank you again for being a gentleman, and hope you've had a good week.

gaffo
Posts: 2396
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:39 pm

BTW per Redemption.

one of the best movies - top 10 of all time since 100 yrs now - is "The Lives of Others" (German).

the main character is not an asshole, but instead just a true believer in communism. works for the stasi.

at time progresses he starts to see his boss and bosses boss as not true beleivers like him, but instead assholes (opportunists - clothing themselves in communism while self promoting-being hypocrites)

later as he spies on a man he thought was a traitor to the German Democratic Republic (GDR) - slowly sees that his man has a perspective of life and self which he lacks.

--------

in the movie we see the Stasi agent without a girl - has to have prostitutes give him love, we see his meal (some slop), and his home (bare no joy no art - empty), at the same time we see the man (Sebastian Koch - good german actor - he was in The Tunnel too (another good movie)) he is spying on - a man with a girl and a home with color, art (a place of life - not bare).

slowly the stasi starts to self reflect, first he steals a poetry book from the man of life's appartment he is spying on, then he starts to read it.

..............

finally by the end of the movie he is a full man.

I will not go into detail more about the movie - only say that in this instance "giving a man a number" is not inhuman, but pure humanity - and both men at the end of the movie understand the nature and to whom that number refers to.


if you have not seen that movie you should.

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