Free Will

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Sculptor
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Re: Free Will

Post by Sculptor » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:20 am

He is utterly determined to argue for free will

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Dontaskme
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Re: HTD

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:39 am

henry quirk wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:58 pm
“But your "choosing" is actually a result of cognitive proccesses that are decided by the environment.”

No, my choosing is what I do, based on my assessing and concluding; ‘I’ deliberate (de-liberate).
The idea of a 'you' that chooses is only apparent within the dream of separation within the realm of duality, aka knowledge.
In reality a choice is made before you've become aware a choice has been made,as life is one unitary action.
No one is choosing anything to happen, no one is making life happen, in life there are only reactions.
On looking back, when were you ever aware of the very beginning of any choice being made by you?
You never stop to tell yourself you are about to do something every time you do something, simply because every action is an automatic action.
You'll see that all choices are made automatically without your input,it is only upon reflection that you become aware of a choice,seen only as a reflexive action de facto.



.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:51 am

henry quirk wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:58 pm

The determinist sez we’re mired in those chains, that we’re wholly subject to them and have not a jot of influence over them. We’re dominos, billiard balls, moving only cuz prior effect bops us and sets us into motion.

I say: I move myself.
This again, is knowledge of I myself moving. In reality nothing is moving. Nothing is doing, and yet no doing is left undone.

Life never intends to live a certain way or be a certain way, it's just living free in every moment.
Intention is the rider of the will, within the dream of I am choosing, I am doing, I am moving...
In reality I AM is observing choosing, doing, and moving, as an appearance in I AM that never chose, moved or did anything except within the dream as and through the dream character, the action figure that is the body mind mechanism.

Life is a dream full stop...you the one you think you are did not choose to be born nor will you choose to die.

You may choose to kill yourself and die that way, but that choice was made only within the dream, it was a choiceless choice.

.

HereToDiscuss
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Re: Free Will

Post by HereToDiscuss » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:08 am

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:20 am
He is utterly determined to argue for free will
Yes, you are-albeit whetever you will change your opinion or not is unknown. And..?

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Sculptor
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Re: Free Will

Post by Sculptor » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:23 am

HereToDiscuss wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:08 am
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:20 am
He is utterly determined to argue for free will
Yes, you are-albeit whetever you will change your opinion or not is unknown. And..?
The unpredictability of the will, is not a argument for the un-caused free will.
You can do as you will, but you cannot will as you will.

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henry quirk
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DAM

Post by henry quirk » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:07 pm

“The idea of a 'you' that chooses is only apparent within the dream of separation within the realm of duality, aka knowledge.”

I got no clue what all that means.

#

“In reality a choice is made before you've become aware a choice has been made,as life is one unitary action.”

No, that’s wrong.

#

“No one is choosing anything to happen, no one is making life happen, in life there are only reactions.”

No, each of us, for reasons we suss out for ourselves, ‘choose’ (apprehend information, assess it, conclude, act). We ‘do’ react, but we can also respond.

#

“On looking back, when were you ever aware of the very beginning of any choice being made by you?”

Just now, when I read your post (apprehended and assessed it) I also decided to respond. I made the choice. It was quite apparent I made the choice.

#

“You never stop to tell yourself you are about to do something every time you do something, simply because every action is an automatic action.”

No, I never stop (cuz I’m on-going) but I’m aware of myself (cuz I’m recursive) all the time, aware of choice, myself choosing, aware of my autonomic functions (nuthin’ is automatic).

#

“You'll see that all choices are made automatically without your input,it is only upon reflection that you become aware of a choice,seen only as a reflexive action”

No, that’s not my experience of myself (and I don’t believe it’s your experience of yourself).

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henry quirk
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“Life is a dream full stop”

Post by henry quirk » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:08 pm

No, it’s not, period

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henry quirk
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Re: Free Will

Post by henry quirk » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:11 pm

HereToDiscuss wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:08 am
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:20 am
He is utterly determined to argue for free will
Yes, you are-albeit whetever you will change your opinion or not is unknown. And..?
Sculptor: HA! That’s funny...you won your freedom from the penalty box with that.

HTD: huh?

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henry quirk
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“you cannot will as you will”

Post by henry quirk » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:17 pm

No, I can’t choose to like spinach (I don’t: it’s foul), but I can choose to eat it anyway (for whatever reason I cobble together for myself).

That’s agency (free will [agent causation]).

HereToDiscuss
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Re: “you cannot will as you will”

Post by HereToDiscuss » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:23 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:17 pm
No, I can’t choose to like spinach (I don’t: it’s foul), but I can choose to eat it anyway (for whatever reason I cobble together for myself).

That’s agency (free will [agent causation]).
So, being able to not act in accordance with your desires is evidence for free will in your opinion. I get where you're coming from. But, before i give my critism, can you define the X in the following statement so that i can understand if we're talking about the same thing or not:
"A thing has free will if and only if X."

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henry quirk
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Re: “you cannot will as you will”

Post by henry quirk » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:35 pm

“So, being able to not act in accordance with your desires is evidence for free will in your opinion. I get where you're coming from.”

Well, that not what I said at all. The spinach choosing was an example, not a definition. and the example was about ignoring, by choice, predisposition (which isn’t desire).

#

“But, before i give my critism, can you define the X in the following statement so that i can understand if we're talking about the same thing or not: "A thing has free will if and only if X."

I can’t answer that. In your question free will is a quality or characteristic.

As I say: ‘I am a free will’, not ‘I have free will’. Moreover, I say I’m an agent (as in ‘agent causation’).

Mebbe ‘a thing is a free will/a person/an agent if and only if X’ is the better construct.

Unfortunately I can’t really answer that either. It’s like obscenity: I can’t tell you what it is but sure as hell I recognize it when I see it (or experience it by way of myself).

I could say ‘a thing is a free will/an agent if and only it’s a person’. True enough, but circular cuz as I reckon it ‘a thing is a person if and only if it’s a free will/an agent’.

Equally uninformative: ‘a thing is a free will/an agent/a person if and only if it is matter organized in a particular and peculiar way’.

My point: trying to tease out and examine free will (or personhood, or agency, or autonomy) as a thing unto itself is like trying to examine walking as a thing unto itself, sumthin’ separate from legs.

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Dontaskme
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Re: DAM

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:06 am

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:07 pm

“You'll see that all choices are made automatically without your input,it is only upon reflection that you become aware of a choice,seen only as a reflexive action”

No, that’s not my experience of myself (and I don’t believe it’s your experience of yourself).
It's not your experience except within the dream of separation; which is the idea there is a you aware of yourself. In reality there is no you aware of you. There is only you because there is no other than you. Awareness/consciousness is all there is.

You cannot experience self, you ARE self experiencing itself. You are the experience, you do not have an experience.

But this is nondual understanding..believe what you want at the end of the day, your belief is your reality only you are making up.

.

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henry quirk
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“In reality there is no you aware of you.“

Post by henry quirk » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:21 pm

I disagree.

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bahman
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Re: Free Will

Post by bahman » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:50 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:52 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:22 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?

.
Yes. Your decision is not free if it is for a reason, such as love and goodness.
Free will simply means in my humble opinion a choiceless choice is available all the time.
Free will is the ability to do all sorts of things opposite to what you can possibly mention. We even choose to be humble or not.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:52 am
Choose wisely else face the consequences, you are the only one creating your own karma.
Yes, in only karma base universe.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:52 am
Karma is instantaneous. With every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, can't have one without the other.

.
Karma is only true in Karma base universe. I think that the world in which people do not receive Karma because of their actions is possible. Similar to our world. Karma is not instantaneous if there is any. You owe people the mechanism in which Karma applies too.

HereToDiscuss
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Re: “you cannot will as you will”

Post by HereToDiscuss » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:25 pm

henry quirk wrote: “So, being able to not act in accordance with your desires is evidence for free will in your opinion. I get where you're coming from.”

Well, that not what I said at all. The spinach choosing was an example, not a definition. and the example was about ignoring, by choice, predisposition (which isn’t desire).
Yes, it was an example,not a definition-that was clear. Howewer, i was simply asking you to define what free will was so that we could agree on things, albeit you made yourcase on why you think it is improbable. Also, yes, that was a poor word choice, i meant to say "predisposition".
Anyways, can't it be the case that you not choosing to eat the spinach is because of your predisposition too? Whatever the reason is, that reason is definitely not independent of the aforementioned predispositions which determine your thinking proccess and the assumptions that lead you to not eating it.

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