Free Will

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:00 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:32 am

Now your getting the idea of subjective morality and objective morality.

Good for you. :lol: :lol:

Regards
DL
I'll decide..NOT YOU.. if I am getting the idea of subjective morality and objective morality whatever that is supposed to mean!!

Get down from your dogmatic evangelical soap box and out of my face.

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:23 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:51 am


I am alone with myself virtually all of the time and while I do not think of it as LOVE like you do it does bring me peace of mind
The older I get the more detached I become and it makes me more balanced as a human being psychologically / philosophically
Me too, I've silently behind the scenes been working all my life on trying to develop a peaceful mind, I do this by learning to just watch my feelings and thoughts without the usual desire to attach to them ...What I've noticed is that I can either OWN 'thought' and 'feelings' or I can LET THEM GO

I can see that they are just like passing ships in the night,and that they really do not have any place to dock...I can see that they are totally harmless and not even real when I give them no attention. There's that saying that goes..''energy flows where attention goes''
For me, there are two choices..which are ''TO BE'' or ''NOT TO BE'' ..for only I am the author of my reality. I can be sublimely peaceful and at one with the universe or I can be separately restless in a chaotic sense...it's all a matter of context switching to me...or it can be just a simple shift of perception.


So to me, suffering seems to magnify it's intensity during moments where I am giving most of my attention / intention to thoughts that come visiting univited.

I've learnt that as soon as I start believing I own my ''thoughts'' is when I am setting up my own reality within the lens of my own unique perception. In other words, I'm responsible for how I feel day to day, and no one else can influence or change that feeling..only I can change the way I feel.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:51 am
I do not love or hate myself but instead accept myself for who I am and understand that self improvement is an eternal work in progress
I agree with you there.

And just to add, from my personal perspective, I only put my trust in the energy that is living as and through my body, I trust in the intelligence of consciousness itself the process that is keeping me alive. I've discovered that by carefully and diligently listening to my own body seems to be the only sure way I get to know if I am ok or not both mentally or physically...and by intergrating the two aspects of being and trusting the process that they are always working towards the natural default position of harmony and well being. And that intelligent process can be observed in the natural biological world at any time we care to put attention on it.

So it's like I always trust in what consciousness wants...I know that my body will always let me know if something doesn't feel right... I trust in that intelligence only, the intelligence that is living as and through my mind and body right now.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:51 am
I understand too that this existence is but a short one and that there is therefore no point in holding onto it anymore than is absolutely necessary
Death is the end of all suffering so is nothing to be afraid of [ I have not been afraid of it for five years now after realising fear of it is irrational ]
I agree with this too, we know we are going to die, the intelligence that manifests as human conscious expression knows death as being the recycling process that is life itself, can't have life without death...and vice versa...for me, this is a reciprocal self-sustaining feedback loop process which not only informs me in a relative sense that all things die, it informs me that in order to live one must also die,because you cannot die unless you live...So for me, both birth and death are the same counter-active but nescessary process,working in conjunction - it's just that both death and life differ in thier appearance that's all...but neither state is either dead nor alive..because that knowing is just a conceptual knowledge via identification with ''thoughts''...knowledge is a conceptual overlay upon the blank screen of awareness that is true and real reality...but that's just my belief...I'm not saying it is absolutley the case.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:51 am
I do not recommend this philosophical world view to others for it is not for me to tell other minds how to think but suffice to say it works for me
I agree with you, I see what you mean. It works for me too.

I come to this forum to vent off my own direct experiences of what I believe reality to be with the disclaimer that what I say is only ever my opinion and if it makes no sense to anyone else..that matters not to me, because how I view reality always makes perfect sense to me, since I am the only one authoring my reality the way I see it, through the unique lens of my perception..and so I care not for the way others see my point of view. I am totally aware we are all just experiencing different points of view, we are all different pixels within the greater whole picture.

It's always a pleasure talking with you surreptitious57..you are probably the only person on this forum whom I can feel a total relaxed sense of being with when conversing with you...I've noticed you have a very well self-controlled, mild and calm demeanor. I've noticed you never look down on others or try to gain oneupmanship status that is the usual stance with some other posters here ..so thanks for sticking around, I enjoy sharing some philosophical banter with you.

.

surreptitious57
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Re: Free Will

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:45 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
It is always a pleasure talking with you surreptitious57.. you are probably the only person on this forum whom I can feel a total relaxed sense of being with when conversing with you ... I have noticed you have a very well self controlled mild and calm demeanour . I have noticed you never look down on others or try to gain oneupmanship status that is the usual stance with some other posters here .. so thanks for sticking around I enjoy sharing some philosophical banter with you
I see no point in asserting superiority over others online because for me that is just a waste of mental energy
Also I am not interested in argument only in conversation where all views can be freely and openly expressed

I have no problem with the debating style of other posters but the detached approach is what works best for me

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Dontaskme
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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:11 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:45 pm

I see no point in asserting superiority over others online because for me that is just a waste of mental energy
Also I am not interested in argument only in conversation where all views can be freely and openly expressed

I have no problem with the debating style of other posters but the detached approach is what works best for me
I totally agree and apply that to my own life...so thanks again for the conversation, for without you there is no me... and vice versa.

All my mental energy is usually expressed freely without friction or harmful intention ..but if other people want to have a jab at it, then I'm more than likely to poke back...but that's just the nature of being human.


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bahman
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Re: Free Will

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:22 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?

.
Yes. Your decision is not free if it is for a reason, such as love and goodness.

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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:52 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:22 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?

.
Yes. Your decision is not free if it is for a reason, such as love and goodness.
Free will simply means in my humble opinion a choiceless choice is available all the time.

Choose wisely else face the consequences, you are the only one creating your own karma.

Karma is instantaneous. With every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, can't have one without the other.



.

HereToDiscuss
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Re: Free Will

Post by HereToDiscuss » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?

.
I think what you mean by "love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace..." is simply, put in psychological terms, "human needs"-excluding physiological needs-. In other words, what we need in order to have free will are:
A) Being able to make a choice
B) Choosing something in order to fulfill a need.*

B is definitely what humans do directly or indirectly. Every action of someone serves a purpose:To fulfill a need. We seek love -in a romantic and a nonromantic sense- because we need it. We listen to music because of the harmony and it calms the mind down, generally speaking. But is B an instance of free will by itself? Definitely not. Think of a very advanced Sims game. In this game, Sims are just programmed to seek those things and can also feel those things. But their thinking proccess is one of this:
They encounter a thing, they evaluate it based on how they can fulfill a need based on the thing, and they display the most appropiate response in order to fulfill a need.
Do the Sims in question have free will? I would say that most people wouldn't say that they do. We also need A.
But while A is needed -to make a choice, you need to be able to choose or else it wouldn't be a choice-, A renders B kind of useless as A is what is the definition of free will as commonly thought-the ability to make a choice. Any other addition is really unneeded.

Then, the question is, can anyone be able to make a choice? Since there is really only one proper objection not based solely on determinism, i will object with that:

The basic idea is this:Either determinism is true or indeterminism. Under determinism, you can't make a choice. Under indeterminism, you still can't make a choice. So, making a choice is impossible.
Assuming determinism:
Premise: Given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law. (From Stanford Encylopedia)
Premise: If the way things go thereafter t is fixed (as a matter of natural law), then any action after the given time t couldn't have been due to a choice made by a conscious agent. (Because the future is fixed, while choice requires future to not be so)
Premise: If an action couldn't have been due to a choice made by a conscious agent, then that action could not have been due to free will.
Therefore, any action after the given time t could not have been made out of free will.
P
P entails Q
Q entails S
Therefore, S

It follows that free will fails to exist under determinism-or indeterminism where the event was caused by an event before it because, in the relevant timeframe where the action is "choosen", the things that could've affected it are fixed in terms of the way things will play out-untill another uncaused event happens. Basically, indeterminism with all relevant events not uncaused is determinism within the relevant perspective.

The same for indeterminism, with the assumption that the event was uncaused. Let's say that action A was done by an agent:

Premise: There was no reason -or, more strictly, cause- for action A to happen.(Indeterminism is simply the belief that some events have no cause)
Premise: If there was no reason or cause for an action to happen, then the action was done randomly.
Therefore, A, an action done by an agent, was done randomly.
Premise: If an action was done randomly, then it couldn't have been made out of free will.
Therefore, A wasn't made out of free will.

Q
Q entails S
Therefore, S
S entails P
Therefore, P

If an action had a cause, then it wasn't done out of free will. If an action didn't have a cause, then it wasn't done out of free will. Therefore, no action could be done out of free will-otherwise, we will run into a contradiction.

*"needs" as in the needs that are in Maslow's Hiearchy of Needs.

Edited heavily because the two arguments seemed to have no connection and the second argument didn't logically follow from the premises-but was informal in logic. Now, it is truly formal-albeit a little bit complicated since it has to be that way in order for the consclusion to follow after it.

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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:09 am

HereToDiscuss wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:17 pm


I think what you mean by "love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace..." is simply, put in psychological terms, "human needs"-excluding physiological needs-. In other words, what we need in order to have free will are:
A) Being able to make a choice
B) Choosing something in order to fulfill a need.*
Only within the dream of separation in the belief there is a 'someone' who needs or wants.
Dreams are KNOWN in the sense ONE can awaken from a nightly dream and see the dream was unreal,and that the dream was just an appearance coming and going within that ONE
And just like the nightly dream, ONE can also awaken from the 'waking dream' to see through that dream as just a continual passing sound and light show APPEARING within the ONE, the same one that observes every night time dream.
HereToDiscuss wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:17 pm
Then, the question is, can anyone be able to make a choice? Since there is really only one proper objection not based solely on determinism, i will object with that:


Therefore, any action after the given time t could not have been made out of free will.

The thought ''I have made a choice'' is within the dream of separation.Every choice is a choiceless choice.As you go back through the chain of events that lead up to every choice to see there was no actual known beginning point where a choice was made.
That there is a belief I have made a choice is purely a conceptual idea...aka the sense of 'a person' making the choice. But when that sense of personhood falls away, the illusion of a known chooser is seen through to not be there, this is proved by science also in that all choice is unconsciously made before it becomes known to have happened. Therefore there never was any personal choice or free will...except in the dream of illusory conceptual separation.

.

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henry quirk
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Re: Free Will

Post by henry quirk » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:39 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?
A small objection. You conflate motive with the capacity to see motive realized.

Me, all I say is: I am a free will (the agent in 'agent causation' [I'm not a just domino; I'm the domino who does as he chooses], subject to causal chains but able to bend some, end some, and create others).

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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:53 am

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:39 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?
A small objection. You conflate motive with the capacity to see motive realized.

Me, all I say is: I am a free will (the agent in 'agent causation' [I'm not a just domino; I'm the domino who does as he chooses], subject to causal chains but able to bend some, end some, and create others).
Your talk is only within the illusory dream of separation. It's normal as the dream is all there is.

.

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henry quirk
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“the dream is all there is”

Post by henry quirk » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:53 pm

Yeah, I disagree.

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Re: Free Will

Post by HereToDiscuss » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:03 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:39 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?
A small objection. You conflate motive with the capacity to see motive realized.

Me, all I say is: I am a free will (the agent in 'agent causation' [I'm not a just domino; I'm the domino who does as he chooses], subject to causal chains but able to bend some, end some, and create others).
But your "choosing" is actually a result of cognitive proccesses that are decided by the environment. Your desires and outlook on life is decided by the environment and genetics, including all the things that matter when it comes to decision-making. Your bending of casual chains is a natural result of the chains themselves.

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henry quirk
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HTD

Post by henry quirk » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:58 pm

“But your "choosing" is actually a result of cognitive proccesses that are decided by the environment.”

No, my choosing is what I do, based on my assessing and concluding; ‘I’ deliberate (de-liberate).

#

“Your desires and outlook on life is decided by the environment and genetics”


Environment influences, it doesn’t determine; my genes are my foundation, yes, but the house atop that foundation is largely my own design.

#

“Your bending of casual chains is a natural result of the chains themselves.”

The determinist sez we’re mired in those chains, that we’re wholly subject to them and have not a jot of influence over them. We’re dominos, billiard balls, moving only cuz prior effect bops us and sets us into motion.

I say: I move myself.

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Re: HTD

Post by HereToDiscuss » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:41 pm

henry quirk wrote: No, my choosing is what I do, based on my assessing and concluding; ‘I’ deliberate (de-liberate)
But your method of assessing and concluding will be different because of the environment, not to mention the assumptions themselves.
henry quirk wrote:
Environment influences, it doesn’t determine; my genes are my foundation, yes, but the house atop that foundation is largely my own design.
But, like your design, again, is the result of the foundation itself.
henry quirk wrote:
The determinist sez we’re mired in those chains, that we’re wholly subject to them and have not a jot of influence over them. We’re dominos, billiard balls, moving only cuz prior effect bops us and sets us into motion.

I say: I move myself.
Well, for what reason do you take your position to be true then? In order to move yourself, you have to be an "unmoved mover"-free from the whips of cause and effect and also not random. There is no reason to suspect this to be true.

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henry quirk
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HTD

Post by henry quirk » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:21 pm

“But your method of assessing and concluding will be different because of the environment, not to mention the assumptions themselves.“

Sure. As I say: environment influences. There’s literally a whole universe of influences, but it’s all on me how I resist, circumvent, submit to, or take advantage of those influences (more accurately: it’s all on me on how I attempt to resist, circumvent, etc. [bein’ a free will doesn’t guarantee success, only that I can choose to make the effort]).

#

“But, like your design, again, is the result of the foundation itself.”

My foundation (my genes) predisposes me, nuthin’ more.

#

“Well, for what reason do you take your position to be true then?”

My experience of myself, in the world.

#

“In order to move yourself, you have to be an "unmoved mover"-free from the whips of cause and effect and also not random.”

No, I don’t have to be god-like, and I don’t have exist outside causality. I just have to initiate new chains, end old chains, and reshape or bend other chains. Each of us does these things all the time. We’re agents, not events; we self-direct, are not directed.

#

“There is no reason to suspect this to be true.”

No, there’s good reason: one’s (mine, yours) experience of one’s self, in the world.

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