Free Will

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Age
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Re: Free Will

Post by Age » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:51 am

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:17 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:56 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?

.
How can you exercise the will to love, when real love takes to be real love?
You cannot have true love alone.
Love is a shared emotion that includes works deeds and reciprocity.

You can have a stalkers love, but I do not class that as true love.

You do have the free will to try to love someone, but if the other does not return that emotion, it is not ever a true shared love.

Regards
DL
You cannot chose to love. It's like you cannot chose to feel hungry. You can chose to eat, or not but some things are unbidden like sexual orientation. Shit just happens to you.
If sexual orientation is unbidden, and, shit just happens to people, then why do you make judgement of "others" and ridicule them for their sexual orientation, and also believe that punishment is necessary?

Age
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Re: Free Will

Post by Age » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:56 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:36 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:37 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?
So "free will," according to you, is not freedom to feel hatred and badness, perpetrate injustice, violate security, and perpetuate strife and disharmony?

It's just the good stuff, eh? None of the bad?

Interesting selectivity.
According to me, free will includes all the bad stuff too. Sorry I forgot to mention that.

Meaning according to me ..is freedom to make any choice because you are free to do so, because what ever you choose to do...only you ...will reap what you sow. No one holds a gun to your head...you make your own bed and have to lie in it.

That’s what free will means.

Karma if there is such a thing is not dished out on you by an external agent...you dish it out on yourself.

.

.
If you are now saying that 'free will' means having the ability to choose, then I have no objection at all.

If this is how 'free will' is being defined, then, to me, there is absolutely nothing to debate with the determinsm/free will discussion. Both play an equal part in the scheme of things.

If karma is ever perceived as some thing in relation to an individual human being, then the true meaning of karma is lost.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:03 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:38 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am
Free will means making the right choice in order to feel love and goodness, a sense of justice, security, peace and harmony, mainly, the natural equilibrium of being no thing and everything.

Any objection?

.
No objection in that that is 'your' definition of what 'free will' means, and thus is not necessarily what 'free will' actually means to all.
Ok thanks for your objective opinion.
Age wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:38 am
Also, if one is making any choice to feel love and goodness, or feel any other thing, then does that not bring with it a sense of seeking approval or just seeking?
Not approval, for the nature of free will is the freedom to act any action be it for the good or evil. Infinite intelligence means opposites both have to exist for reality to be free to be what it it without the need for approval or rejection...reality is free in every moment ..there is nothing willing to act a certain way...the desire to act a certain way comes from intention....which is within the illusory dream of separation, the idea that there is a chooser choosing whatever feeling is chosen....and yet in reality every choice is a choiceless choice since it's free of any agency and is why no one is ultimately responsibilty for any action ....for in reality life is one unitary action.Choice is an appearance within the realm of spacetime duality, aka the dream of an infinite intelligent dreamer.


Age wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:38 am
If one is seeking some thing, then could that imply a dualistic sense of things?
Yes.

Seeking can only apply to the sense of a separate self where there isn't one. And so once it is realised that there isn't a separate self here, then all knowledge and seeking stops and a return to every day ordinary living resumes the same as it ever is,was and ever will be...

Seeking is getting stuck in the world of concepts where there is a constant demand for knowledge... free will plays it's part as a means for when there is a demand for knowledge which is always on hand via the memory...memory is a very useful tool for learning from our mistakes helping us avoid bad choices in favor for making right choices...albeit illusory choices within the dream of separation...for in reality there is no doer doing life...life is being done and it's free in every moment, there is nothing in control, there is nothing stopping a choice being made.. because it's free to choose in every moment.

.

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Greatest I am
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Re: Free Will

Post by Greatest I am » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:18 pm

gaffo wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:17 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:56 pm

you MUST have self love before you can love another!

without self love you are just a co-dip, striving for self love from another's validation that you are worthy.
First. Loving alone is infatuation and not love.

Compare your infatuation with another man who has his love returned.

Which is the better and truest description of love?
A shared love or a poor guy pining to have his infatuation appeased?

To your last.
The validation of worthiness is self of self.
You can think me worthy all you like but if I do not feel it and agree, it is worthless.

Jesus said he would recognize and love his people by their works and deeds. So do you and I in terms of recognizing who loves us and who we love.

Loving alone is like masturbation. It is a poor substitute for real sex and real love.

Regards
DL

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Sculptor
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Re: Free Will

Post by Sculptor » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:01 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:51 am
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:17 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:56 pm


How can you exercise the will to love, when real love takes to be real love?
You cannot have true love alone.
Love is a shared emotion that includes works deeds and reciprocity.

You can have a stalkers love, but I do not class that as true love.

You do have the free will to try to love someone, but if the other does not return that emotion, it is not ever a true shared love.

Regards
DL
You cannot chose to love. It's like you cannot chose to feel hungry. You can chose to eat, or not but some things are unbidden like sexual orientation. Shit just happens to you.
If sexual orientation is unbidden, and, shit just happens to people, then why do you make judgement of "others" and ridicule them for their sexual orientation, and also believe that punishment is necessary?
I do not say that. Not at al.
I've never abused a person for their sexual orientation.
And punishment would only be indicated if their orientation led to the abuse of another person.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:59 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:18 pm
Loving alone is like masturbation. It is a poor substitute for real sex and real love.

Loving another is still masturbating with yourself. For there is only ever SELF masturbating with itself. Real love has no substitute.

Real sex and love can be known during sexual union when both the feminine and masculine energies combine as one. The union of the two really one is the bliss that is the divine Godhead when the physical opposites fe/male body totally disappears into the infinite expansive open space that is pure thoughtless bliss awareness oneness...aka God.

The love and beauty you see in another person is coming from the love and beauty that is within yourself not from the other person, it's a mutually inclusive reciprocal phenmonena appearing in you only...no one gives it to you...it is you.

Another person cannot love you, and you cannot love another person...LOVE IS ALL ALONE WITH ITSELF ALL ONE...the love and beauty you see in another person is only a reflection of the love and beauty in you being reflected back at you...because without another, there is no you... and there is no you because there is no other than you. You are God experiencing the love or hate it has for itself infinitely for eternity as and through it's other half..it's own self.

Only you can love you. Only you can hate you. There is only you, and other you's are you too.

All you's were conceived from the same one place..namely, here now in this conception.

Every ''thing'' is your own conception.



.

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Re: Free Will

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:14 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:59 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:18 pm
Loving alone is like masturbation. It is a poor substitute for real sex and real love.

Loving another is still masturbating with yourself. For there is only ever SELF masturbating with itself. Real love has no substitute.

Real sex and love can be known during sexual union when both the feminine and masculine energies combine as one. The union of the two really one is the bliss that is the divine Godhead when the physical opposites fe/male body totally disappears into the infinite expansive open space that is pure thoughtless bliss awareness oneness...aka God.

The love and beauty you see in another person is coming from the love and beauty that is within yourself not from the other person, it's a mutually inclusive reciprocal phenmonena appearing in you only...no one gives it to you...it is you.

Another person cannot love you, and you cannot love another person...LOVE IS ALL ALONE WITH ITSELF ALL ONE...the love and beauty you see in another person is only a reflection of the love and beauty in you being reflected back at you...because without another, there is no you... and there is no you because there is no other than you. You are God experiencing the love or hate it has for itself infinitely for eternity as and through it's other half..it's own self.

Only you can love you. Only you can hate you. There is only you, and other you's are you too.

All you's were conceived from the same one place..namely, here now in this conception.

Every ''thing'' is your own conception.
I disagree generally and specifically with this torturous language.

"The love and beauty you see in another person is coming from the love and beauty that is within yourself not from the other person, it's a mutually inclusive reciprocal phenomena appearing in you only...no one gives it to you...it is you."

Let me use an analogy.

You say what I see is my own light reflected back at me while I cannot see the light of the one I love shining at me.

This is foolish. How you can get reciprocity when alone is quite the task. It is like just changing hand when you masturbate and saying you are not alone.

I agree with your last.

Regards
DL

gaffo
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Re: Free Will

Post by gaffo » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:04 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:36 am
gaffo wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:54 am
we all act within bounds of our nature.

All action is one boundless unitary action.

Artificially daming up this immediate uncaused ( Acausal) natural flow of one unitary action is a reaction, a reaction is the artifical nature of consciousness...as in 'our nature'

Resistence to the flow of natural being is suffering..releasing any resistence is the artistry of natural being without suffering.
Artistry as in the unresisted flow of existence is natural...'our nature' is artificial...for there is no 'our' anything, there is only everything acting all at once.

_____


Suffering is Proportional to Resistance.

''The Universe as experienced is the created negation that ever resists.

We can thus say that Awakening to Substantiality is inversely proportional to resistance. In other words, more resistance to the immediacy of Consciousness corresponds to more experience of the samsaric universe of delusion, i.e., suffering.''

https://integralscience.wordpress.com/2 ... esistance/


.
nice word salad, but if you say so.

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Re: Free Will

Post by gaffo » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:45 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:18 pm


First. Loving alone is infatuation and not love.
so utterly wrong in all ways.

you are too lost in understanding what Love is, for me to waste my time.

know you are so lost, and likeable IMO, i wish you well ;-/.

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RCSaunders
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Re: Free Will

Post by RCSaunders » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:45 am

f12hte wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:24 pm
Everything is instinctual or learned. Free will is not involved. The will is programmed by experience and thus it is not free. Guilt and punishment are not warranted, because moral failure is impossible for people without free will.
Thanks for the preprogrammed comment, even though it cannot mean anything. It's just what you wrote because you had no choice in the matter. It's not your fault, you couldn't help it.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:12 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:04 pm

nice word salad, but if you say so.
That's the problem with word salad, it's no substitute for the real experience of tasting salad.

The menu card is not the food. We don't taste the menu.

Talking about what is only ever going live right now can only be known on reflection via memory which is never THE DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

Memory aka (conceptual thought) aka words are drawn upon..when there is a demand to know the experience of being...otherwise the experience of being is being known by no one.

No word can approach the direct experience of NOW...no concept can approach NOW..for now never comes because it's not a concept, just as the menu is not the food. Direct experience is always here now...not on some menu card, aka memory expressed as words.

But don't listen to me, taste it for yourself, I can't taste it for you, I can only show you the menu, word salad.

Take it or leave it, if it's not to your taste.

.

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Greatest I am
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Re: Free Will

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:43 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:45 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:18 pm


First. Loving alone is infatuation and not love.
so utterly wrong in all ways.

you are too lost in understanding what Love is, for me to waste my time.
You say I am lost in understanding while running away from showing yours.

That is quite hypocritical but you win that debate hands down.

Take a bow if you can stop running away long enough.

This is quite cheep even for you buddy. If we were not friends, I would tell you where to go.

Regards
DL

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Dontaskme
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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:30 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:14 pm

You say what I see is my own light reflected back at me while I cannot see the light of the one I love shining at me.

This is foolish. How you can get reciprocity when alone is quite the task. It is like just changing hand when you masturbate and saying you are not alone.

Everything is Light or Consciousness or Beingness or Oneness or God or whatever you want to call IT

The light cannot see itself no more than the sun can shine on itself. The sun/light that casts no shadow is the castor of all shadows from it's OWN SELF.

The external world of otherness is the mirror reflection - a projection of CONSCIOUSNESS here... reflecting only itself as and through it's own mirror image of itself.

CONSCIOUSNESS here has no image of itself, it can only take the image reflected back to it from the external mirror of otherness, which is it's own self reflection..this phenomena is a self sustaining reciprocal relationship within itself.

There is no other but you here (consciousness) - but you here (consciousness) cannot see yourself or know what you are - only in your reflection of otherness (projection) can you see and know yourself here - you take your projected image from the external which is your own reflection of your non-image here... this reflection is the direct experience of knowing and seeing and being Consciousness - that can only be known and seen and experienced from here - and not there...for there is no-thing there in there - there is only what is here appearing to be there as projected from here... here is all there is. HERE is the original source, here is the centreless centre of Consciousness which is everywhere at once.

Objectifying the 'Non-objectifiable Subject' is the apparent problem the ''One Subject'' projects in Itself.

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Free Will

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:39 am

The more we recognise ourselves as consciousness reflected upon itself, the more we move toward self-love, love for all, peace, and joy. For as long as our psyche is split into two parts - ''mental'' and "physical" we remain limited to the understanding of self-love, love for all, peace and joy.



.

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Re: Free Will

Post by Greatest I am » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:26 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:39 am
The more we recognise ourselves as consciousness reflected upon itself, the more we move toward self-love, love for all, peace, and joy. For as long as our psyche is split into two parts - ''mental'' and "physical" we remain limited to the understanding of self-love, love for all, peace and joy.
.
Love for all is for the delusional and pitiful as love has conditions and if you love all people the same way, then there is no one special in your life.

If that is where your ideology leads you, you can have it.

Regards
DL

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