"Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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gaffo
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by gaffo » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:17 pm
-1- wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:52 am
1. You did not supply a direct quote that deals with free will.
...in your opinion. That, as I said, is a matter of debate. I think it does.

But let's pretend it doesn't, and that you have reason to know it doesn't. Okay. Then every single time the Torah holds man responsible for his own choices, starting with the Garden of Eden, you have an affirmation of free will. So any way you slice it, that's in the Torah from the first book of Moses.

The fact that your words, the words, "God created man with free will" do not appear is inconsequential. You wouldn't expect God to need your words to say what He wants to say, would you?
your Torah claims that your God "Walled off Pharoah's heart" (to not hearing your god - and so demanded repression of the Jews in Exile).

so only some have freewill and others like Pharoah and myself were born to burn?

gaffo
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by gaffo » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:57 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:26 pm


A bible quote is constructed of mental ideas WRITTEN down in the form of words in this conception...meaning anything written is actually unwritten...in other words, anything written or spoken can only be a metaphor, not literal.
there is no cultural historical evidence to support your above posit.

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:26 pm

Concepts are not literal things in and of them selves, they are metaphorical ideas (mentation) interpreted to mean whatever the interpreter interprets them to be according to (minds) own understanding. The God of one's own understanding how one interprets that.
sophist hogwash.


Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:26 pm
Words are essentially meaningless,
if so then you cannot read my reply.

what utter bullshit, "words are essentially meaningless" (throw out 1,000,000 yrs of oral language).

you are full bullshit sophist Socrates called out via his disciples book The Republic.

Shakespeare can something to say about your kind to. all sound and fury signify nothing (other than sophistic noise)

gaffo
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by gaffo » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:01 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:30 am
There is no direct quote. Thanks to all who tried to help.
lol ;-)

quite welcome

gaffo
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by gaffo » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:09 pm

-1- wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:12 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:11 am

You can check out anytime you like (ignore yourself)....but you can never stay away from what you cannot leave...for there is no other one to stay away or leave you. You stay regardless...else the illusion of staying away and leaving wouldn't be known...as concept...make no mistake. Make belief.

.
You are quite annoying, little Dontaskme. You asked me to not bash you, I asked you not to badger me. Yet you continue being a little annoyance.

You act buzzing me like little gnats buzz a waterbuffalo.

I've had enough of your bullshit. I'm putting you on iggy. -- Now you can go wild, you little grasshopper, you can talk nonsense all you want, and you won't affect me with your little-brain theories and trival tripe. You can hear your own voice and continue your love affair with it. I'm leaving YOU behind.
to be fair as an observer, Dontaskme seems a sophist poof, and worthy of ignoring his/her/its posts, but you replied to many of them, and then insulted him/her/it (so you started it).

he/her/it via honour - though a sophist with nothing to offer but looking smart using word salad posts - was forced to "get petty" and reciprocate in kind.

i do like you, but are a little bit a "hot head" and i have to side against you on this one, you had not need to insult King word salad, and instead could have just ignored it puffery posts.

after you insulted it, it has the moral/right imparative to return your unkindness.

gaffo
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by gaffo » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:35 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:42 pm
Genesis 2:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Obviously Man has free will to choose but at the same time he doesn't. Why? It is because we re not ONE: we re a plurality.. We are dual natured having a higher part capable of conscious free will and a lower part, animal man, limited to acquired habits and reactions expressed by our personality. The fallen human condition has made it so that the lower dominates the higher instead of the universal norm of the lower serving the higher.

So Man has the conscious potential for free will but lacking consciousness, has become a slave to the reactions of our lower parts denying ourselves the potential for choice that free will makes possible.
thanks for reasoned post - it per convention Christianity's view on the matter.

i reject it, but value understanding of your view - though wrong - lol.

the above story is not about Freewill, its about Obedience ("do as i say, not as i do") - you can eat of...........blah blah........but not this one (so ya "do as i say........").

Genesis is a Polytheistic Summarian, then Akkadian, then Babylonian, then finally a story adopted and tweaked for the Jews.

so in spirit it is Summarian.

...............

"fall" is bullhist. prior to the "fall" adam was just an instictual being without self awareness (this is not about Freewill - its about nature of mans awareness of self - prior to the fall he as just a dumb animal).

he eat of one of the two trees and become self aware (hay why am i here? who am i? oh i'm small this god is bigger than me, i did not know that before,. now i'm scared") - had a rat or cat eat of the same tree it would be in the same place as adam, but they did not and so they reside on the lower lever - innocent and not self aware (where adam was prior).

"god" denied eating of ToK out of fear one of his creation might become closer to him in nature (and he was right - man became "as one of us" )

why would a god fear his creation? - because the god in the Genesis story is Summerian, its not YHWH - Chronos eat his own kids to prevent them from userping his power.

.............not also that "god"/"gods" - We and Us play a role in the story - all agreed out of fear of Adam becoming one of them - removed that Other tree - the of immortality, so Adam may become a God, but must die, and so no threat to us.


had Adan eat of the ToL he could have overthrown God and his Cananite Panteon, and wedded Eve and instead of Jews worshiping YHWH and Ashira it would be Adam and Eve. lol

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Dontaskme
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:44 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:42 pm


So Man has the conscious potential for free will but lacking consciousness, has become a slave to the reactions of our lower parts denying ourselves the potential for choice that free will makes possible.
Hi Nick...would you agree or disagree that no man ever experienced a reaction in that a reaction is inseparable from what is essentially always one unitary action...aka infinity now manifesting all at once, minus an inbetween middle man apparently breaking what is always a perfect symmetry.

Would you agree or disagree that there is no one enslaved by a reaction simply because to experience a reaction would require two of you, one to act and one to react to the act that's already happened. So in effect, the reaction is just a replay of what's already happened, it's a fictional knowing after the fact.

But on a deeper realisation, this after-thought can also cancel itself out in the sense that to know is to not know in the same instant...and that there is no knowing of any external source of knowledge, except from what is conceived here now in you via direct experience itself...but then there is another realisation as conceived aka perceived here in you..that this personal direct experience is unknowable even to itself. . and that's bacially what free will is, it's the will of freedom itself choosing in a choiceless act to be free in every moment..in that every moment is nought but infinity now and not one moment separate from infinity now and that there is nothing outside of that arena impinging in on it to influence a different outcome?
In other words there's just what's happening to no one...in other words, not happening.

Man doesn't have consciousness...the thought that man has consciousness is the contents of consciousness itself.
In other words, the enslavement idea of man being a reactive creature is all just a story known by the only knowing there is which is unknowable.

It's not that man can deny he has the freedom of choice to act in the moment, because any concept of self always is an after thought in consciousness anyway ...so free will simply means there is no free will belonging to any thing, in that life is one unitary action appearing to be reactive, and that reactiveness is not an enslavement, it's all part of the ultimate freedom that is freedom itself..and that includes the freedom of reactive thoughts to be as well...no one ever thought a thought, thoughts are free and boundless too.

.

.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:04 pm
I don't speak for others, just myself.
Why?

Don't you ever use logic, rationality or evidence? Because those things are universal. They're also essential to philosophy.
I like the concept of freewill, but think it is not supported in the "holy books"
It is. I can't imagine why you think it isn't.

Every time somebody is made responsible for their actions, that implies free will. If they were not free, there could be no responsibility. As Kant said, "Ought implies can." If you can't do something, then you can't have "ought to have done it." You couldn't. You aren't responsible, then, because you aren't response-able.
I also see a bias of Pride/Hubris per the Freewill mentality.
Not logical.

An entity that has no free will cannot have "pride." Pride implies morality, and morality entails free will. Likewise "humility": if there's no free will, then being humble is not a credit to anyone. It's just how things happened.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:23 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:47 pm
your Torah claims that your God "Walled off Pharoah's heart"
Aha. You're not quite correct, there. Look again.

Did you notice that the first few times it says, "...but Pharaoh hardened HIS heart"?

It's only after he's had several opportunities to do the right thing that it says, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart."

In other words, people get a chance to listen; but if, after several appeals, that person is hardening his/her heart, then there is no promise that free will will be granted forever.

As C.S. Lewis put it,

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”

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Arising_uk
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:14 am

There's bugger all evidence that the story of the Jewish exodus is true rather than a metaphor. But if it is true then your 'God' is a mass murderer of children and encouraged theft to boot. Exodus 12:29, 35.

Oh! And the Pharaoh hardened his heart after the Nile was poisoned, a fairly reasonable response to an act of terrorism I'd have thought.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:27 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:26 pm
Words are essentially meaningless,
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:57 pm
if so then you cannot read my reply.
Many authors / stories appear...yet there is only one reader of what no one ever writ.
Conceptual stories are known by the only knowing there is which is consciousness. Who or what is conscious? ..fill in the blank (____?____)

By filling in the blank, conscious awareness that already IS prior to identity becomes artificially identified ... and voila what was essentially unknown is now known as a concept..aka a fiction. It's a fiction because how can what is essentially UNKNOWN be known? ...
Conceptual language is a fictional overlay upon the screen of ''Pure Unknown Awareness'' without a label.
The concept of the unconceived is nought but a label and behind the label there is not-a-thing. In other words, there is no thing in a thing.
No thing is thinging.

What is language but a label pointing to 'something' definable,and to say something about it ..but that which is defining cannot be defined.
Every author is like a signpost, it can point to 'something' and 'everything' except itself. The only self here is the pointed at...It can't point to the pointing...for it is the pointing... the pointing can only associate with what is being pointed at as known to itself only... and that which is known cannot know anything because it's just a concept known by the pointing that cannot point to itself.

All meaning/ is by definition of what cannot be defined. Every definition is conceptual, there does not exist a non-conceptual definition, the conceptual can only define other concepts, it cannot define 'the non-conceptual'.

Therefore, there is here only audible sound heard as words / a story arising to and from no thing....aka silence. All sound is sourced from silence, aka no one.

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:47 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:26 pm
A bible quote is constructed of mental ideas WRITTEN down in the form of words in this conception...meaning anything written is actually unwritten...in other words, anything written or spoken can only be a metaphor, not literal.
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:57 pm
there is no cultural historical evidence to support your above posit.
Who or what posits knowledge ??

Do you even know who or what the YOU is that purports to know ?

Who or what is going to find evidence of a ''knower'' or a ''postulator'' inside a book? ... Who is looking for what here?

When what is looking is looking for what is looking inside of what it's looking at ...aka THE BIBLE...it's in big trouble, for one very good reason.

God is tacit. Understanding comes from a silent knowing, words point to the silent knowing, for words are the only tool available. Once truth is seen for what it is, there is no more use for the tool, it can be thrown away. What remains is a truth so blindingly obvious and forever life changing.

It will be the entrance into Nonduality and the end of all suffering and knowledge.
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:57 pm
sophist
Addiction or attachment to labels is just more suffering. But if the label sticks, then wear it, it is afterall your creation.

There is a place of perfect peace but no one lives there..For what (AM I) without my label ?

.

gaffo
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:04 pm
I don't speak for others, just myself.
Why?

Don't you ever use logic, rationality or evidence? Because those things are universal. They're also essential to philosophy.
I like the concept of freewill, but think it is not supported in the "holy books"
It is. I can't imagine why you think it isn't.

Every time somebody is made responsible for their actions, that implies free will. If they were not free, there could be no responsibility. As Kant said, "Ought implies can." If you can't do something, then you can't have "ought to have done it." You couldn't. You aren't responsible, then, because you aren't response-able.
I also see a bias of Pride/Hubris per the Freewill mentality.
Not logical.

An entity that has no free will cannot have "pride." Pride implies morality, and morality entails free will. Likewise "humility": if there's no free will, then being humble is not a credit to anyone. It's just how things happened.

gaffo
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:38 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:04 pm
I don't speak for others, just myself.
Why?


- i have no time for jerks who know nothing of the concept of humility.

so fk off shallow egoist.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
Don't you ever use logic, rationality or evidence?
i strive to.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
Because those things are universal.

no they are not assumed to be universal.

ww1. ww2 etc shows that much - dolt.




They're also essential to philosophy.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
I like the concept of freewill, but think it is not supported in the "holy books"
It is. I can't imagine why you think it isn't.
I suspect i've read more of the "Bible" than you "sir"

it does not affirm Freewill overall. instead it 3/4 of - when the subject is mentioned - affirms predestination instead.

deal with it - or more apt - pick up the "good book" - do you have a copy? - if not go buy one.

and READ IT.

jerk.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
Every time somebody is made responsible for their actions, that implies free will.
nonsequitor, we were talking about "the bible" not "when somebody does".................


Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
If they were not free, there could be no responsibility.

duh, ..........and?


Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
As Kant said, "Ought implies can." If you can't do something, then you can't have "ought to have done it." You couldn't. You aren't responsible, then, because you aren't response-able.
Iknow of Emmanual, took a course on Ethics in college.

of the 5 or so folks we covered, i found Kant to be the least of them.

so let Kant say what he wishes and me to ignore if i find it empty.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
I also see a bias of Pride/Hubris per the Freewill mentality.
Not logical.
whatever, you champion Egoism over Humility - as your prior post demeaning my nature for my inabliity to spell (that post showed your character is lesser).

so think what you wish - you are a small mind trapped in egoism - and not worth my time.

when/if you grow up and aquire Wisdom, then we can talk.

otherwise fk you Sir.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
An entity that has no free will cannot have "pride."
to have Pride requires self awareness.

BUT self awareness does not mandate freewill.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
Pride implies morality,
I'm not a Catholic, but affirm the concept of the Seven Sins.

Pride is NOT morality,

Pride = EGO.

and nothing more.

and EGO is not Moral.

Loving yourself - after knowing yourself, and so becoming Humble, THEN one can be moral, without PRIDE.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
and morality entails free will.

no, it implies my above, to be a man or women who knows and so forgives themself for failures, and so is a moral person and HUMBLE.

its got noting to do with "Freewill".



Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
Likewise "humility": if there's no free will, then being humble is not a credit to anyone. It's just how things happened.
correct.

it is a credit to God - assuming there is one.

but you still link your concept of Humilty to "credit" (WOW! - the "ego in this one (YOU) is strong" (Yada).

one of goodwill does not do good works out of credit!

they do so - the honest ones of real character - as a product of thier character!

the def of humility!

"freewill" is not mandated in the above.

i guess you were born an egoist, to never be able to understand the nature of Humility - so be it.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:02 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:38 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
Because those things are universal.

no they are not assumed to be universal.

ww1. ww2 etc shows that much
No, you misunderstand. I did not mean that everyone practices them. I meant that rationality has universal implications. One can only get away from it by being irrational. But the implication of rationality is that everyone (universally) who wishes to be rational should be bound by them, if they are truly rational.
I suspect i've read more of the "Bible" than you "sir"
I can almost certainly guarantee that's not true. However, you may believe otherwise, as you wish.
it does not affirm Freewill overall.
Actually, it does. And it does so every time it holds a person responsible for his choices.
affirms predestination instead.
This term, "predestination" is badly misunderstood. It does appear in Scripture, but does not refer to Determinism. Those who use it as a synonym for "Determinism" are misinformed, and need to read the Greek and the context more closely.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
If they were not free, there could be no responsibility.
duh, ..........and?
And the logical consequence, inescapably, is that since the Bible holds us individually responsible for our actions, we are volitionally free.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
As Kant said, "Ought implies can." If you can't do something, then you can't have "ought to have done it." You couldn't. You aren't responsible, then, because you aren't response-able.
so let Kant say what he wishes and me to ignore if i find it empty.
This doesn't answer the problem. I'm not asking you to believe Kant because he's Kant. I'm asking you to see only this much: that in saying that "ought implies can," he was right. You can dislike everything else about him, if you wish; it won't change anything, if he's right about this.

And if he's not, you must be able to describe a situation in which a person did something they could not help doing, but were responsible for it anyway...which you cannot do, obviously, because it's an inherent contradiction.

So Kant was right.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
An entity that has no free will cannot have "pride."
to have Pride requires self awareness.
If you have no free will, you cannot have "chosen" to be proud. And so being proud cannot be bad, if that were true.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 pm
Likewise "humility": if there's no free will, then being humble is not a credit to anyone. It's just how things happened.
correct.
Then you cannot tell people they "ought" to be humble. They cannot choose to do it.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:05 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:14 am
There's bugger all evidence that the story of the Jewish exodus is true rather than a metaphor.


to be honest there is not much historical surviving evidence to the Exodus (i personally think it happened because it was written down in the Torah 400 yrs later, and assume it was of cultural codex as oral tales prior - i.e i do not think a "made up exile" would have survived 400 orally/nor a made up story about the exile 400 yr later to be written about in the Torah - to "survive today".

IMO the story survives today for a reason - it happened - but i suspect it was inflated - i.e not all jew were made slave of Egypt via Thothmus(sp) in 1500. some were. prob the "cream of the crop"

just like the second exile, the bible inflates the second exile as "all the jews when into babylon" - when 1/5th did.

i suspect and assume the same was true of the first exile (and the fact that the Torah mentions that "El is YHWH" - means that most jews at that time did not think so.

if all Jews are taken into slavery to Egypt, then there would be none still in judea (who worshiped El0 - to contest whether Ya (YHWH) was in fact the same god as El!


---the bible mends the conflict as "not much" and insists they are the same gods, negating archeological evendence that El was Baal's dad, and after the 1/5 of jew from egypt returned there God Ya (YHWH) was incorporated into the Cananite Pantheon, and was viewed as El's other son.

.............of course later, YHWH overtook El worship and by the Torah was written down (800 BC) - YHWH had taken his dads place in Godhood - and made one God.


I see a clear parallel with El's Grandson, Jesus...................where Jesus is YHWH, so lets meld them into one and "sort of ignore the "old man god YHWH - while we worship Jesus as god).


same thing happened to Chronos and his son Zeus, so its a universal theme, not just particular here.


Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:14 am
Oh! And the Pharaoh hardened his heart after the Nile was poisoned, a fairly reasonable response to an act of terrorism I'd have thought.
Thanks for the on point post - and thanks for correction on this particular! I wil now have to re-read Exodus 25 yrs since).

thanks! ;-(.

i guess. ;-(.

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