"Free will was given to man by god."

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Belinda
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Belinda » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:17 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
No. It doesn't say that. It says, "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil," not "the tree of wisdom."
It's an excellent myth. 'Knowledge' in the Biblical sense does not mean wisdom or accumulation of facts. 'Knowledge' in the Biblical sense means experience. The thing about the Garden of Eden is that Adam did not experience choice until he was tempted to eat o the tree.

I like the naughty snake who , unknown to Adam, was probably planted by God, in order to make Adam fulfil his destiny as a man. After all, God made Earth as well as Heaven.

Scott Mayers
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Scott Mayers » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:45 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:17 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
No. It doesn't say that. It says, "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil," not "the tree of wisdom."
It's an excellent myth. 'Knowledge' in the Biblical sense does not mean wisdom or accumulation of facts. 'Knowledge' in the Biblical sense means experience. The thing about the Garden of Eden is that Adam did not experience choice until he was tempted to eat o the tree.

I like the naughty snake who , unknown to Adam, was probably planted by God, in order to make Adam fulfil his destiny as a man. After all, God made Earth as well as Heaven.
The scriptures are also rewritten many times and 'evolve' to reword things that favor the present beliefs reflected at the times of the rewrites. There is a rational secular explanation of the Adam&Eve story (&/or any subset of most scriptures of any religion). The tree is symbolic of the wisdom of the 'gods' or of Nature itself, whether it be knowledge of neutral fact or moral beliefs (such as Immanuel Can here holds). What is universally interpretable is at least "some knowledge" that makes us reflectively wish we didn't learn afterthefact. Because we as children dream of always being grown up, this is equally symbolic of us as humans as a whole wanting to learn about nature. But once we do, it may turn out that upon learning, we are doomed to be as equally responsible (like a god) for our maturity. We cannot undo what we learn without some brain damage or literal destruction of factors where we treat Adam as any subset of people with Eve as that which follows this knowledge.

Knowing also includes knowing something ABOUT morality also.....such as that it is itself only artificial. ...Thus we are doomed to be responsible for creating and managing this ourselves. If, as I already know, that the naked truth of morality is that it is non-existent, this curses us for discovering that the illusion of right and wrong is itself 'dead' now relative to our naive child-like state. Thus we retrospectively regret this and wish we were still the young and naive child who just would have simply been better off not knowing.

As to this discussion though, if this itself at least relates to the problem of 'evil', then many contradictions still exist logically. These don't require looking to the scriptures as any argument with respect to apologetic/skeptic debates as it is purely logical:

If a Supreme being exists (as that of the Bible), then for it to be absolutely good, why and how would it permit humans a choice to have that goes BEYOND its 'domain' of reality? The claim that we are given free will by this 'god' is equally removed from religion where we redefine God to "NATURE" itself. This is the 'deterministic' problem related to physics. Thus this question stands valid about 'free will' even if there is no God.

But IF we treat Nature as some particular interpreted 'God', especially if it is presumed 'good', then the question of WHY it would permit us 'free will' is odd. Does this god itself have free will? A lot of interesting questions arise.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by -1- » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:51 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:17 am
God determines everything that has happened or will ever happen. So that men could choose to obey God, or not as the case may be, God gave men Free Will by special dispensation so that men apart from all other created things could choose to obey God and not have to act from necessity like plants and cows and things.
Is this a direct quote from the Bible, Melinda? I asked around if anyone knows of a direct and unambiguous quote from the bible that says god gave man free will. This is where the buck stops.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by -1- » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:52 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:59 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:17 am
"Free will was given to man by god."
LOL!??!?! ..god didn't want us to have free will, so he forbade us to eat the fruit of wisdom!
Is this a direct quote, HexHammer? I asked for a direct quote from the bible. that says god gave men free will.

Scott Mayers
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Scott Mayers » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:45 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:52 pm
HexHammer wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:59 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:17 am
"Free will was given to man by god."
LOL!??!?! ..god didn't want us to have free will, so he forbade us to eat the fruit of wisdom!
Is this a direct quote, HexHammer? I asked for a direct quote from the bible. that says god gave men free will.
Why does a direct quote matter? It is implicit in context and I explained with clarity above why this is an argument in religions regardless because it relates to why some god's domain ignores the existence of some 'evil' domain beyond it. Asserting free will as given is thus implicit from Adam and Eve as it was their CHOICE uniquely apart from God that enabled them the power of this free will to disobey.

Belinda
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Belinda » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:06 am

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:51 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:17 am
God determines everything that has happened or will ever happen. So that men could choose to obey God, or not as the case may be, God gave men Free Will by special dispensation so that men apart from all other created things could choose to obey God and not have to act from necessity like plants and cows and things.
Is this a direct quote from the Bible, Melinda? I asked around if anyone knows of a direct and unambiguous quote from the bible that says god gave man free will. This is where the buck stops.
It's not a quotation from The Bible. I cannot even quote from the doctrines of any of the separate churches. It's the little I have gleaned from various sources and I am not at all an expert theologian.

The Judeo- Christian myth must be internally coherent ; if it had been irrational it would not have persisted as an explanation for centuries.The doctrine of Free Will simply has to be a part of the Christian myth and I'd like to hear any cogent argument to the contrary. The atheist does not subscribe to the doctrine usually because he believes complete voluntarism is impossible.

The atheist would say that men may use their natural reason in predicting what good they can do. The theist says that God gave them reason to predict what good they might do.But for both the atheist and the theist the problem remains that the world is deterministic. The theist's solution to the problem of determinism is to invent a bit of the man that is not causally determined like the other bits of him. The theist believes that so-called Free Will is something that exists like the maternal instinct exists.The atheist believes that so called free will is a synonym for man's reasoning ability.

Nick_A
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:45 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:00 am
"Free will was given to man by god." This I often hear from theists. I searched the bible and found no support for this from the word of the supposed god.

So this is inference? Or did I miss something.

Will Guffo or somebody else please tell me where the idea of "free will" emerged in christian thinking, and what Christians use as explanation to it in the bible?
God gave Man free will but we are not Man: we are fallen Man and that is the problem. Being dual natured or part animal we are governed by reactive desire as opposed to having conscious free will

1 Corinthians 10:13

13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Free will is a potential for fallen Man after the Old Man has become the New Man

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:41 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:06 am
But for both the atheist and the theist the problem remains that the world is deterministic.
Sorry...you're just wrong about this. This is not what Theists believe is the case. It's what a certain narrow band of them does. It's not at all a mainstream position.

Belinda
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Belinda » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:36 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:41 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:06 am
But for both the atheist and the theist the problem remains that the world is deterministic.
Sorry...you're just wrong about this. This is not what Theists believe is the case. It's what a certain narrow band of them does. It's not at all a mainstream position.
Theists believes God created and maintains everything ; i.e. determinism. Atheists and pantheists believe nature created and maintains everything; i.e. determinism.

uwot
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by uwot » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:49 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:59 pm
LOL!??!?! ..god didn't want us to have free will, so he forbade us to eat the fruit of wisdom!
Whaddya know? HexHammer has hit the nail on the head. How can any theist maintain that humans freely choose between good and evil if they don't know what either is?

uwot
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by uwot » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:34 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:06 am
Theists believes God created and maintains everything ; i.e. determinism.
Well yeah. This is where theists run into a brick wall. On the one hand they wish to believe that some omniscient god knows exactly what we will choose, but insist that we choose to do it freely.
Belinda wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:06 am
Atheists and pantheists believe nature created and maintains everything; i.e. determinism.
The thing is, we simply don't know whether we have free will and never will. To demonstrate determinism, you have to believe that it is theoretically possible to build a computer of such power that it can map every process in your brain, predict what your response to it's declaration of what you will do next so that you are powerless to do otherwise. Such a computer is never going to be built.

Belinda
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Belinda » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:16 pm

Determinism implies that everything that happens happens of necessity. But it does not imply that what will happen can be predicted.

Nick_A
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:41 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:06 am
But for both the atheist and the theist the problem remains that the world is deterministic.
Sorry...you're just wrong about this. This is not what Theists believe is the case. It's what a certain narrow band of them does. It's not at all a mainstream position.
Why IYO is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil always considered superficially from a moralistic perspective? There was no society at that time so obviously knowledge of good and evil refers to something other than societal morality. Objective good and evil for Man is an essential question yet is always diminished into subjective opinions concerning morality. The objective relationship of good and evil for Man is lost in the confusion.

jayjacobus
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by jayjacobus » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:43 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:17 pm


'Knowledge' in the Biblical sense does not mean wisdom or accumulation of facts. 'Knowledge' in the Biblical sense means experience. The thing about the Garden of Eden is that Adam did not experience choice until he was tempted to eat o the tree.
Subjectivity is an influence in people and religous stories need interpretation. I cannot objectively understand Adam's experience because nothing in the story confirms my own experiences. But my experiences are subjective in my mind, What they mean to me are not what they would mean to you.

So, why would you gain knowledge by reading about Adam and ignore your own experiences?

If you think you don't have experiences with God, you are probably blocking them out.

But maybe not. Maybe your experiences don't objectively exist.

Belinda
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Belinda » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:54 pm

Jay jacobus wrote:
why would you gain knowledge by reading about Adam and ignore your own experiences?
The Bible is part of the culture that I and a lot of others are embedded in. Every person's experiences are shaped by the culture in which they live. There never has been nor ever will be a person who lives outside of a culture. All propositional knowledge is got through cultural channels.

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