Why the Ramana Maharshi model for humanity is flawed.

[seeds]

_______

(This is an offshoot from an alternate thread.)

My Satguru Ramana Maharshi spoke of remaining in the heart and not "going out" in awareness into thought and sensations.

And apparently there were times when he felt that “going out” (like everybody else) to acquire food to keep his body alive was too much of a hindrance to his spiritual goals.

According to Wiki:

On arriving in Tiruvannamalai, Maharshi went to the temple of Arunachaleswara. The first few weeks he spent in the thousand-pillared hall, then shifted to other spots in the temple, and eventually to the Patala-lingam vault so that he might remain undisturbed. There, he spent days absorbed in such deep samādhi that he was unaware of the bites of vermin and pests. Seshadri Swamigal, a local saint, discovered him in the underground vault and tried to protect him. After about six weeks in the Patala-lingam, he was carried out and cleaned up. For the next two months he stayed in the Subramanya Shrine, so unaware of his body and surroundings that food had to be placed in his mouth or he would have starved.

I suggest that anyone who purposely enters into a state of mind that requires others to obtain** and shove food into their mouth to keep them from dying from starvation, is developing a completely impractical way of life.

**(Usually by begging for alms.)

In which case, how could that be a universally applicable way for humanity to conduct itself when, indeed, somebody (as in almost everybody) needs to go out into the awareness of the “thought and sensations” that are necessary for earning their keep?

The point is that if everyone on earth adopted the “Ramana model” wherein all they did was sit around in their underwear and offer vague and impractical advice such as that which you are attributing to Ramana above, then nothing would get done, and the gears of our societies would soon come to a screeching halt.
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Yes. And the species would go extinct, peacefully, in utter contentment.

So that is a desirable goal? – the peaceful extinction of our species?

Please don’t take what I am about to say as being mean-spirited, it’s just that sometimes we need to have the implications of our assertions mirrored back at us.

So let me get this straight.

In deference to Ramana, you personally think that the best thing that could ever happen to humanity is for everyone on the planet to...

1. Strip down to their underpants and assume the lotus position.

2. Eliminate all thought and sensations to the point of no longer being aware of their body.

3. Stay that way until the body dies from dehydration/starvation (just like Ramana would have presumably done had no one intervened to save him).

Did it ever occur to you that the physiology of the human brain and body might possibly represent the one and only means for awakening new (eternal) souls into existence?

In which case, would it not matter to you that had your desired extinction occurred, say, 10,000 years ago, that you and everyone you love would literally be nonexistent?

Or are you under the assumption that everyone already existed in a higher context of reality prior to their birth on earth?
_______

[Atla]

Many Easterners are just really bad at logic. Once they figure out the "True Self", they tend to go into this detached, antisocial, empty meditative state where they sit around all day and do nothing.

Even though immersing yourself in life as much as you can, getting attached as much as you can is the "True Self" all the same. And you don't need to sit still to fill yourself with bliss.

[Walker]

He was just a kid when the ants ate away at his legs. After he was found and cared for by those with the eyes to see what he was, he entered into a prolonged period of silence, and lived mostly in the caves of the sacred mountain, which he considered to be the literal manifestation of Shiva. People found him and stayed nearby, just to be in his presence. They took turns begging for food. Years later he came out of the caves and sat down on the mountainside. Folks came and built an ashram around him that still exists today. He did what he could around the ashram. He cooked at times, but mostly he was a teacher and a spiritual magnet, and he answered questions from those who traveled far to be in his presence.

People sometimes purposely try to create communal ashrams but it never seems to work out. They must authentically arise, as happened with Sri Ramana Ashram, which suggests the need for an authentic spiritual force. Likewise, such a force only exists within context and balance of the world whatever that world may be, East or West.

Sri Ramana's message is more along the lines of be who you are, rather than trying to be who you think Sri Ramana is.

[seeds]

Many Easterners are just really bad at logic.

I think you can safely say that about many Westerners as well, but I get your point.

Once they figure out the "True Self", they tend to go into this detached, antisocial, empty meditative state where they sit around all day and do nothing.

Hence the problem in assuming that this could be a practical way for humanity (as a whole) to function. If such were the case, you can forget about any kind of advancement in the fields of science and medicine, for example.

Even though immersing yourself in life as much as you can, getting attached as much as you can is the "True Self" all the same.

I’m not sure what you mean by that. Care to clarify?

And you don't need to sit still to fill yourself with bliss.

Indeed.

And what bothers me is the belief that it makes sense to view the afterlife as being an eternal situation in which you do absolutely nothing other than experience a state of bliss.

I’m just guessing, but it seems to me that after the equivalent of a million years have elapsed, the thrill of this alleged bliss could get a little stale.

I mean, seriously now, since when is it ever a good thing to become a useless lump of life that neither evolves nor produces anything of value?
_______

[seeds]

He was just a kid when the ants ate away at his legs.

Most kids with two working brain cells to rub together would consider that to be a problem (and rightly so) and try to do something about it.

So what are we supposed to make of it?

After he was found and cared for by those with the eyes to see what he was, he entered into a prolonged period of silence, and lived mostly in the caves of the sacred mountain, which he considered to be the literal manifestation of Shiva.

I’m sorry Walker, but believing in the absolute fantasy that a particular mountain on earth is the literal manifestation of Shiva, does not look that impressive on one’s resume'.

People found him and stayed nearby, just to be in his presence.

Sounds like your standard guru/idol worship to me.

They took turns begging for food.

Again, another shining example of the impracticality of the “Ramana model” being a logical way of life for all of humanity to adopt (which is what triggered my argument against roydop’s assertions in the OP).

Years later he came out of the caves and sat down on the mountainside. Folks came and built an ashram around him that still exists today. He did what he could around the ashram. He cooked at times, but mostly he was a teacher and a spiritual magnet, and he answered questions from those who traveled far to be in his presence.

And other than coming up with some comforting and perhaps inspiring platitudes, what exactly was the truth of reality that Sri Ramana Maharshi was teaching to those who traveled far to be in his presence?
_______

[Walker]

Most kids with two working brain cells to rub together would consider that to be a problem (and rightly so) and try to do something about it.

So what are we supposed to make of it?
_______

Integration of uncorrupted equanimity into daily activities requires a period of adjustment which customarily requires seven years of silence. As a mute yute, Sri Ramana Maharshi was in an adjustment period. Spacial orientation of the body and its parts to the proximity and movement of objects can also be disrupted, thus a natural movement towards stillness and contact with the immovable earth.

[roydop]

_______

(This is an offshoot from an alternate thread.)

My Satguru Ramana Maharshi spoke of remaining in the heart and not "going out" in awareness into thought and sensations.

And apparently there were times when he felt that “going out” (like everybody else) to acquire food to keep his body alive was too much of a hindrance to his spiritual goals.

According to Wiki:

On arriving in Tiruvannamalai, Maharshi went to the temple of Arunachaleswara. The first few weeks he spent in the thousand-pillared hall, then shifted to other spots in the temple, and eventually to the Patala-lingam vault so that he might remain undisturbed. There, he spent days absorbed in such deep samādhi that he was unaware of the bites of vermin and pests. Seshadri Swamigal, a local saint, discovered him in the underground vault and tried to protect him. After about six weeks in the Patala-lingam, he was carried out and cleaned up. For the next two months he stayed in the Subramanya Shrine, so unaware of his body and surroundings that food had to be placed in his mouth or he would have starved.

I suggest that anyone who purposely enters into a state of mind that requires others to obtain** and shove food into their mouth to keep them from dying from starvation, is developing a completely impractical way of life.

**(Usually by begging for alms.)

In which case, how could that be a universally applicable way for humanity to conduct itself when, indeed, somebody (as in almost everybody) needs to go out into the awareness of the “thought and sensations” that are necessary for earning their keep?

The point is that if everyone on earth adopted the “Ramana model” wherein all they did was sit around in their underwear and offer vague and impractical advice such as that which you are attributing to Ramana above, then nothing would get done, and the gears of our societies would soon come to a screeching halt.
_______

Yes. And the species would go extinct, peacefully, in utter contentment.

So that is a desirable goal? – the peaceful extinction of our species?

Please don’t take what I am about to say as being mean-spirited, it’s just that sometimes we need to have the implications of our assertions mirrored back at us.

So let me get this straight.

In deference to Ramana, you personally think that the best thing that could ever happen to humanity is for everyone on the planet to...

1. Strip down to their underpants and assume the lotus position.

2. Eliminate all thought and sensations to the point of no longer being aware of their body.

3. Stay that way until the body dies from dehydration/starvation (just like Ramana would have presumably done had no one intervened to save him).

Did it ever occur to you that the physiology of the human brain and body might possibly represent the one and only means for awakening new (eternal) souls into existence?

In which case, would it not matter to you that had your desired extinction occurred, say, 10,000 years ago, that you and everyone you love would literally be nonexistent?

Or are you under the assumption that everyone already existed in a higher context of reality prior to their birth on earth?
_______

1. It doesn't matter what one wears or how they sit.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

As I keep saying, this realm is not fundamental reality. It's a video game, the goal of which is to escape from the game (see "Samsara"). "Heaven", "Nirvana" and "Moksha" are all describing the state of liberation.

Ramana the physical body was unaffected by thought and sensation because his awareness was rooted in the reality of Self, in the same way a person watching a movie can be unaffected by what's happening on the screen.

[seeds]

Most kids with two working brain cells to rub together would consider that to be a problem (and rightly so) and try to do something about it.

So what are we supposed to make of it?

Integration of uncorrupted equanimity into daily activities requires a period of adjustment which customarily requires seven years of silence. As a mute yute, Sri Ramana Maharshi was in an adjustment period. Spacial orientation of the body and its parts to the proximity and movement of objects can also be disrupted, thus a natural movement towards stillness and contact with the immovable earth.

Walker, all you are doing is confirming why the “Ramana model” could never be a practical way of life for humanity (especially the begging for food part mentioned in a prior post).

Needless to say, it is your personal prerogative not to respond, but other than presenting a bunch of anecdotal details about what made Ramana so special, you completely ignored my request to provide us with any irrefutable truths that he may have come up with.

The point is that other than being a particularly charismatic purveyor of standard Hindu dogma (most of which is mythological nonsense), is there anything else about his teachings that truly represent something earth shattering?

If there is, then here is a good opportunity to show it to us.
_______

[Walker]

Most kids with two working brain cells to rub together would consider that to be a problem (and rightly so) and try to do something about it.

So what are we supposed to make of it?

Integration of uncorrupted equanimity into daily activities requires a period of adjustment which customarily requires seven years of silence. As a mute yute, Sri Ramana Maharshi was in an adjustment period. Spacial orientation of the body and its parts to the proximity and movement of objects can also be disrupted, thus a natural movement towards stillness and contact with the immovable earth.

Walker, all you are doing is confirming why the “Ramana model” could never be a practical way of life for humanity (especially the begging for food part mentioned in a prior post).

Needless to say, it is your personal prerogative not to respond, but other than presenting a bunch of anecdotal details about what made Ramana so special, you completely ignored my request to provide us with any irrefutable truths that he may have come up with.

The point is that other than being a particularly charismatic purveyor of standard Hindu dogma (most of which is mythological nonsense), is there anything else about his teachings that truly represent something earth shattering?

If there is, then here is a good opportunity to show it to us.
_______

Your question was, what are we to make of it. Well, I keep dancin' and you keep shootin'. At what point are you satisfied?

The truth of earth-shattering is simple. Arunachala is Shiva. Shiva shatters the world. The world is in you. The world in you is shattered. Without the world in you, no basis for comparison, is. Thus, true equanimity without judgment or discretion. Well, that won’t do. One can hardly function in the world like that and expect the body to survive for its natural span of years, for when the world is shattered into equanimity there is little difference between hunger and eating, there is little difference between drinking and thirsting. Both are simply phenomena to be witnessed, accepted with equanimity, any notions of causation are simply a detached curiosity that directly connects to all things, as does each moment. The equanimity happens when there is nothing to be done about anything, for all is as it is. This is silence within the clamour of phenomena. Have not circumstances ever led you to a moment where there is nothing that you can possibly say? Nothing at all to say? It happened for young Sri Ramana back before folks called him that, because Shiva shattered his world and that left no one to say anything, or anything to say, or any basis for speech. In time, this new being-ness integrates with life in a sustaining way.

Now, this here link is what you call a joke, (to save the uninterested a needless connection).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUe_Pi8NfT4

[roydop]

Most kids with two working brain cells to rub together would consider that to be a problem (and rightly so) and try to do something about it.

So what are we supposed to make of it?

Integration of uncorrupted equanimity into daily activities requires a period of adjustment which customarily requires seven years of silence. As a mute yute, Sri Ramana Maharshi was in an adjustment period. Spacial orientation of the body and its parts to the proximity and movement of objects can also be disrupted, thus a natural movement towards stillness and contact with the immovable earth.

Walker, all you are doing is confirming why the “Ramana model” could never be a practical way of life for humanity (especially the begging for food part mentioned in a prior post).

Needless to say, it is your personal prerogative not to respond, but other than presenting a bunch of anecdotal details about what made Ramana so special, you completely ignored my request to provide us with any irrefutable truths that he may have come up with.

The point is that other than being a particularly charismatic purveyor of standard Hindu dogma (most of which is mythological nonsense), is there anything else about his teachings that truly represent something earth shattering?

If there is, then here is a good opportunity to show it to us.
_______

Ramana's teaching is earth shattering IF one adopts the teaching into practice.

Having done so myself, it has changed my life in the most substantial way. Delving into the space between thoughts has been my path to the end of suffering.

What could be more earth shattering than to no longer suffer?

[seeds]

So let me get this straight.

In deference to Ramana, you personally think that the best thing that could ever happen to humanity is for everyone on the planet to...

1. Strip down to their underpants and assume the lotus position.

2. Eliminate all thought and sensations to the point of no longer being aware of their body.

3. Stay that way until the body dies from dehydration/starvation (just like Ramana would have presumably done had no one intervened to save him).

1. It doesn't matter what one wears or how they sit.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

I see that you’re going to stick to your belief that the best thing that could ever happen to humanity is a peaceful extinction of our entire species.

Okay then, with that in mind, let’s address the following statements:

As I keep saying, this realm is not fundamental reality...

Agreed.

...It's a video game,...

I can think of a better analogy, but okay.

...the goal of which is to escape from the game (see "Samsara"). "Heaven", "Nirvana" and "Moksha" are all describing the state of liberation.

In light of that assertion, I assume that you believe that our consciousness is not only capable of surviving the death of the physical body, but is also going to experience the eternal bliss of Nirvana after achieving Moksha.

Is that a fair assumption?

Now of course you are not obliged to answer any of my questions.

However, just for the sake of helping me to understand your position, if you do not believe that the physical body has anything to do with the manifestation of our ultimate and eternal form,...

...then please give it your best guess as to HOW our singularly unique individualization of personal consciousness acquired its individuated structure?

In other words, if not via the human brain and body, then by what process was our individual consciousness sculpted from the nebulous essence of life?

Again, just give it your best guess based on your own personal studies.
_______

[roydop]

The fundamental process is consciousness coming back onto itself (self-awareness). There is essentially only one phenomena and it's interaction with itself is the creative force of all that is manifest. A perfect example of this process is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS8v6jKPP68

In it, an analogue video camera is pointed at an analogue television to record it's own experience. Subtle adjustments of the focus produces the images on the screen.

So "your name here" (the body/mind complex) is consciousness that has focused onto itself in such a manner as to manifest the world it is experiencing (for some 13.7 billion years now).

[seeds]

The point is that other than being a particularly charismatic purveyor of standard Hindu dogma (most of which is mythological nonsense), is there anything else about his teachings that truly represent something earth shattering?

Your question was, what are we to make of it. Well, I keep dancin' and you keep shootin'. At what point are you satisfied?

I shoot at you and you dance. Then you shoot back at me and I dance.

Around these here parts it’s called philosophical debate (“ya long eared galoot!” Yo’Sam ).

The truth of earth-shattering is simple. Arunachala is Shiva. Shiva shatters the world. The world is in you. The world in you is shattered. Without the world in you, no basis for comparison, is. Thus, true equanimity without judgment or discretion. Well, that won’t do. One can hardly function in the world like that and expect the body to survive for its natural span of years, for when the world is shattered into equanimity there is little difference between hunger and eating, there is little difference between drinking and thirsting. Both are simply phenomena to be witnessed, accepted with equanimity, any notions of causation are simply a detached curiosity that directly connects to all things, as does each moment. The equanimity happens when there is nothing to be done about anything, for all is as it is. This is silence within the clamour of phenomena. Have not circumstances ever led you to a moment where there is nothing that you can possibly say? Nothing at all to say?

Sure, and then the LSD wore off and Monday morning rolled around.

It happened for young Sri Ramana back before folks called him that, because Shiva shattered his world and that left no one to say anything, or anything to say, or any basis for speech. In time, this new being-ness integrates with life in a sustaining way.

Look, I get it; Ramana had a spiritual epiphany in his youth.

Nevertheless, I don’t see anything in your exegetical rendering of his experience that would change my assertion that if everyone on the planet were to adopt his particular way of life, then the world would be reduced to ruins.

However, he’s not alone, because likewise, if the world were to adopt the “Jesus model” (a model wherein dancing the horizontal mambo with a female appears to be forbidden), then no more babies would be born.

In which case, isn’t it a strange irony that if we were to fully mimic the lives of some of our most important spiritual icons, humanity would cease to exist.
_______

[vegetariantaxidermy]

True. Venus was a bit corny and their dancing was rubbish.

[roydop]

The point is that other than being a particularly charismatic purveyor of standard Hindu dogma (most of which is mythological nonsense), is there anything else about his teachings that truly represent something earth shattering?

Your question was, what are we to make of it. Well, I keep dancin' and you keep shootin'. At what point are you satisfied?

I shoot at you and you dance. Then you shoot back at me and I dance.

Around these here parts it’s called philosophical debate (“ya long eared galoot!” Yo’Sam ).

The truth of earth-shattering is simple. Arunachala is Shiva. Shiva shatters the world. The world is in you. The world in you is shattered. Without the world in you, no basis for comparison, is. Thus, true equanimity without judgment or discretion. Well, that won’t do. One can hardly function in the world like that and expect the body to survive for its natural span of years, for when the world is shattered into equanimity there is little difference between hunger and eating, there is little difference between drinking and thirsting. Both are simply phenomena to be witnessed, accepted with equanimity, any notions of causation are simply a detached curiosity that directly connects to all things, as does each moment. The equanimity happens when there is nothing to be done about anything, for all is as it is. This is silence within the clamour of phenomena. Have not circumstances ever led you to a moment where there is nothing that you can possibly say? Nothing at all to say?

Sure, and then the LSD wore off and Monday morning rolled around.

It happened for young Sri Ramana back before folks called him that, because Shiva shattered his world and that left no one to say anything, or anything to say, or any basis for speech. In time, this new being-ness integrates with life in a sustaining way.

Look, I get it; Ramana had a spiritual epiphany in his youth.

However, I don’t see anything in your exegetical rendering of his experience that would change my assertion that if everyone on the planet were to adopt his particular way of life, then the world would be reduced to ruins.

However, he’s not alone, because likewise, if the world were to adopt the “Jesus model” (a model wherein dancing the horizontal mambo with a female appears to be forbidden), then no more babies would be born.

In which case, isn’t it a strange irony that if we were to fully mimic the lives of some of our most important spiritual icons, humanity would cease to exist.
_______

Indeed, we would go extinct, naturally, peacefully.

Instead we are going extinct through chaos and suffering.