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All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 pm
by osgart
Something that has meaningful coherency is intended and purposed to function for a reason.

The existence of a written letter 'A' demands meaningful coherency to exist and that demands human agency.

So too, the existence of organized life demands meaningful coherency and that demands intentional agency likewise.

I, a human life form, am analogous to the writing of the letter 'A'. The human form expresses intentionality in its construction, and purposes specific to its cause.

Meaningful Sense does not come from nonsense.

Therefore consciousness is in fact fundamental.

If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source of it exists because meaningful coherence cannot come from incoherence, nor can it come from nonsense.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 11:04 am
by osgart
A pencil has meaningful coherency.

A pencil is to writing as a hand is to grabbing.

If the hand is meaningfully coherent it cannot come from mindless processes.

Anything meaningfully coherent requires consciousness.

Meaningful coherence cannot come from mindless processes.

Therefore consciousness is fundamental.

If consciousness is fundamental then a source of consciousness is required.

That source must be eternal because mind cannot come from mindlessness.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:42 pm
by Walker
osgart wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 pm
The existence of a written letter 'A' demands meaningful coherency and that demands human agency.

So too, the existence of organized life demands meaningful coherency and that demands intentional agency likewise.
Not necessarily. Not when A is a matter of life and death. Minus the tyranny of the ego that fancies itself orchestrator, an organized life is nothing more than a choiceless surrender to what must be done, whatever that may be. For example, if you’re part of the natural earth cycles so directly that you must get that 40-acre section of prime bottom-land plowed, then you’re surrendering to the natural unifying principle of life that follows the physics of survival, and what you consider to be choices are in the nature of either sustaining life now for the actualized potentiality of future generations, or else following the foolish path of unnecessary death in the dormant seasons, when food is scarce.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 12:30 am
by osgart
I am not denying that there is choiceless surrender in the survival plight of life on earth. But increasingly humanity is fighting against the grains of the natural with technology. And in doing so perhaps we have more time now to discover ourselves better and see that human capacity is actually something far greater and far more free within to invent, and create, to purpose and imagine, to be free with things nature on its own can not anticipate. Physics alone is not driving life, we could have chosen to die off instead of thrive. If we choose to believe will is a choiceless automaton then that is exactly what we will live out. If we choose to live our total range of freedoms within, then we will invent ways to make life worthwhile for ourselves.

The letter 'A' came from choice, not choicelessness. Evolution drives us to the extent that we have a nature that must be tended to. But in granting us self aware mind, heart, and will we can choose to see life through are very own eyes of understanding. And that can lead anywhere, or nowhere for better or worse.

To think that humanity has had so little time to explore itself. And those that have explored, should try to focus their research on the freedoms of individuality, and not so much on group mentalities. The simple fact that i can ask the question ' why does evolution have to dictate what i become when i can choose my becomings myself?' , says that i have a freedom within me, and a drive to use it.

I am a mfg. operator, and im owned by my necessity on the outside, but not on the inside.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 3:22 am
by HexHammer
osgart wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 pm
Meaningful sense cannot come from nonsense.

Therefore consciousness is in fact fundamental.

If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source is fundamental to reality because meaningful coherence cannot come from incoherence.
Pure nonsense and babble, sounds like you are utterly skitzo or have some mental problem!

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:58 pm
by osgart
HexHammer wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 3:22 am
osgart wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 pm
Meaningful sense cannot come from nonsense.

Therefore consciousness is in fact fundamental.

If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source is fundamental to reality because meaningful coherence cannot come from incoherence.
Pure nonsense and babble, sounds like you are utterly skitzo or have some mental problem!
Who the hell are you? Go talk to a black hole or something like you think in your insane theories.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:12 pm
by HexHammer
osgart wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:58 pm
Who the hell are you? Go talk to a black hole or something like you think in your insane theories.
What kind of job does one such as you have?!?!

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:31 pm
by Impenitent
AAAAAAAA

.: Fonzie

-Imp

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:15 pm
by jayjacobus
Religion is passed down through many generations and most people adhere to the religion they were taught.

People who choose a new religion do so because they have interpretted the new religion as having better “features” of some kind but they don’t reject religions as a whole.

Atheists think that the basis of all religions are untenable.

The following is relevant:

“In social psychology, a group can be defined as two or more humans who interact with one another, accept expectations and obligations as members of the group, and share a common identity.”

Rarely does an advocate go back to first principles nor does he/she think about his/her own experiences as the starting point. Most often both the believer and the nonbeliever rely on definitions that they accept as “Truth” or fiction.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:24 am
by Scott Mayers
All religions begin with the notion of real pain, suffering, and death as its initial motivating factors. The uncaring reality of Nature itself makes us question how or why this should be when we seem to favor pleasure, comfort, and life.

Then we use humanly entertaining means to express what was originally the factors of nature that helped us to remember these facts. Means such as caricaturing non-human things as 'humanoid'. Humans get summarily cartooned as a guy named after their word for 'humans': Adam. All other humans following the initial ones become represented by a companion named after the word representing 'after': Eve. In time, we lose the original meanings of the actual labels, the language, and the intent of expressing these and some begin to assert a literal meaning of the ART that was used to express Nature. Thus Adam and Eve turn into literal stories about real people and not the artistic metaphors they represented.

Add to these factors the extremes of politics between individuals and groups regarding what is or is not 'fair' about one's views or position in life, then religions are born as a collection of memes about a caring being above the clouds that 'fixes' the bad things in life by providing an alternative world that is presumed ideal: that it is a place that any wrongs against us can be repaired and formally justified later.

For those in power but in minority relative to a larger population, they excuse their demand to conserve their power by using and embracing religions that assert why they themselves are more justified as 'naturally deserving' while attempting to assure the masses they are exploiting to trust that AFTER life they will be most rewarded for being good servants here and now on Earth. For the more numerous population that acts in subservience to a particular minority, they want a religion that demands people be helpful here on Earth who can only then EARN their post-life conditions.

Religion is a tool to rationalize and manipulate but is at best artificial constructs used to entertain us in light of ugly realities.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:05 am
by Lacewing
I thought all religion began with this notion: Fear.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:57 am
by gaffo
osgart wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 pm

If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source of it exists
not if you are a Solipsist.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:21 am
by Scott Mayers
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:57 am
osgart wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 pm

If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source of it exists
not if you are a Solipsist.
Or did you mean to say, "...if I'm a solipsist!" :lol:

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:06 pm
by -1-
osgart wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:58 pm
... because meaningful coherence cannot come from incoherence.
This is not only debatable, it is indeed false, not true.

The Earth existed before man or any animal life. Ambiogenesis (sp?) brought on life and living things evolved into conscious things.

I don't see why meaningful coherence can't come from incoherence. That is not true.

Re: All religion begins with this notion:

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:09 pm
by -1-
HexHammer wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 3:22 am
osgart wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 pm
Meaningful sense cannot come from nonsense.

Therefore consciousness is in fact fundamental.

If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source is fundamental to reality because meaningful coherence cannot come from incoherence.
Pure nonsense and babble, sounds like you are utterly skitzo or have some mental problem!
"Pure nonsense and babble, sounds like you are utterly skitzo or have some mental problem!"

This is just another, simpler but equally precise, perhaps even poetic, way of describing the notion that religions begin with.