Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:40 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:33 pm No. I don't agree that abortions, even of convenience are deeply evil.
Then there are no terms on which you will not kill a baby.

The truth, then, is that you don't see any special relevance in cases of rape or health crises: you are an advocate for killing babies for any reason.

I get it. But then, there's no more to say, since you have absolutely no moral reservations about infanticide. There are no criteria to which I can direct you...you accept none.
Dude. Your black-and-white thinking....Not interfering with the choice of the mother is NOT the same thing as condoning killing babies.

You do understand that even in a theistic framework, YOU don't get to judge whether killing babies is evil. Only God gets to do it.
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:42 pm Wildly off topic.

I said nothing about statistics. I was speaking of ethics.
Wildly outside of your comfort zone, perhaps, but perfectly on-topic.

How do you know whether something is getting "better" or "worse" if you can't measure it ?
If your bank account has no numbers - how would you know if you were getting poorer or richer?

If you can't measure it - you can't improve it...
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8724
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:43 pm ...the choice of the mother is NOT the same thing as condoning killing babies.
That's exactly what it is.

Let's not talk rubbish. This isn't about "choice," because women have all kinds of choices, and nobody's threatening them. They have the choice not to be promiscuous. They have the choice to use contraception. They have the choice of adoption. None of these require the murder of a baby, and all are choices. So nobody's taking choices away from women.

The only question is, "Should they have the choice to murder their children?" And it's exactly the same as if it was the father making the "choice," and the father wrung the child's neck. In both cases, a baby is killed for convenience.

A moral person's answer is "No."
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8724
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:42 pm Wildly off topic.

I said nothing about statistics. I was speaking of ethics.
Wildly outside of your comfort zone,
No, but well outside of my interest, and well outside of the topic.

Let's go back to the OP. We're off in the woods at the moment. If you want to pursue this line, start a new OP, and if I find it interesting I'll come over there.
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:49 pm
Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:43 pm ...the choice of the mother is NOT the same thing as condoning killing babies.
That's exactly what it is.

Let's not talk rubbish. This isn't about "choice," because women have all kinds of choices, and nobody's threatening them. They have the choice not to be promiscuous. They have the choice to use contraception. They have the choice of adoption. None of these require the murder of a baby, and all are choices. So nobody's taking choices away from women.
Dude. You are incredibly naive. And dare I say - stupid.

FREE WILL is the cornerstone of Christianity, is it not? God - the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent could fix the world tomorrow if he/she wanted.

Why doesn't God prevent rapes? Murders? Atrocities? Murdering of babies even? Why does an all-loving god ALLOW such things to happen?

FREE WILL!

You are ALLOWED to choose. So if your God grants everybody free will, why do you take it upon yourself to rob women of God's gift?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:49 pm The only question is, "Should they have the choice to murder their children?" And it's exactly the same as if it was the father making the "choice," and the father wrung the child's neck. In both cases, a baby is killed for convenience.

A moral person's answer is "No."
They have the choice. You cannot take that choice away from them. You are literally powerless to prevent mothers from aborting their babies.

Hear me? POWERLESS.

YOU cannot know who falls pregnant. And you cannot know who goes to the black market for an abortion.

You cannot prevent people from murdering. I have the CHOICE to murder anybody I want. Right now. At this very moment.
You cannot take away that CHOICE from me.

The only thing you can do is to CHOOSE to punish me AFTER THE FACT.

You suffer from a terrible case of the Illusion of control by thinking you can prevent women from aborting their babies.

You can't do that without committing some gross human rights violations.
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:51 pm No, but well outside of my interest, and well outside of the topic.
I thought you said you were an ethicist? Yet it is not "within your interest" to measure and quantify moral progress?

Does not compute.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8724
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:58 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:51 pm No, but well outside of my interest, and well outside of the topic.
I thought you said you were an ethicist? Yet it is not "within your interest" to measure and quantify moral progress?

Does not compute.
Provide the metric. But do it on your new OP.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8724
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:57 pm You are ALLOWED to choose. So if your God grants everybody free will, why do you take it upon yourself to rob women of God's gift?
"Free will" is not "anything goes." You have, for example, the "freedom" to eat your children. They probably can't stop you. But I'm going to suppose you wouldn't think that's a good thing to do.

What people can do is a pragmatic question. What they should do is a moral one. The latter is a subset of the former.
You are literally powerless to prevent mothers from aborting their babies.
That is true.

But it won't make what they do right. And it won't make them free of accountability to the One who granted both them and their child life. I can do nothing: but I am not the Judge.

All I can do is point out the truth...whether they respond or not, that's up to them.
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:14 pm "Free will" is not "anything goes." You have, for example, the "freedom" to eat your children. They probably can't stop you. But I'm going to suppose you wouldn't think that's a good thing to do.
Free will quite literally means every individual gets to make their own choices.

What does it even mean to find it a "good thing" or a "bad thing"?

Lets play that scenario out. I murder somebody. You look at me with scolding eyes and in a stern voice "You did something very very wrong!"
OK. I did "something very very wrong". And then?

Free will quite literally means: I get to CHOOSE to commit murder, and you get to CHOOSE to hold me accountable for it.

Or just wag your disapproving finger at me. As if I would give a shit.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:14 pm But it won't make what they do right. And it won't make them free of accountability to the One who granted both them and their child life. I can do nothing: but I am not the Judge.

All I can do is point out the truth...whether they respond or not, that's up to them.
Then let The One judge them. Your a posteriori opinion of the "rightness" and "wrongness" of any particular act is quite literally inconsequential unless you ACT in turn.

The question of what are YOU going to do about it is still a question of FREE WILL. You are going to TELL them that "abortion is wrong"? In a stern, paternal and judging voice?

Great! You do you.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8724
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:19 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:14 pm Lets play that scenario out. I murder somebody. You look at me with scolding eyes and in a stern voice "You did something very very wrong!"
OK. I did "something very very wrong". And then?
And then, if your society forbade it, you face their justice. But if even if you don't, you answer to the Great Judge.
Then let The One judge them.
If a person cared nothing for them or the lives of their children, that is what he would do. He would say, so to speak, "You can go to Hell," and mean it.

Is that your view of a good person?
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:27 pm And then, if your society forbade it, you face their justice. But if even if you don't, you answer to the Great Judge.
And free will is precisely that. Stop judging - let the Great Judge do his job.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:27 pm Is that your view of a good person?
What does it mean to have a "view" of a good person?

What does it even mean to view YOU as a "bad person" if I have surrendered my "judgment" to the Great Judge?
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 4138
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by attofishpi »

ADDRESS ALL MY POINTS THIS TIME IF YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR OWN CONVICTIONS

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:17 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:05 pm So God enshrined the life of someone that was impregnated by force - rape. ..and the mother of the child must love that offspring regardless of the memory of its conception?
We can talk about that.

But first, I want to see what you really care about here.

According to neutral statisticians, all health-related and crime related abortions total only 7.5% of all the abortions in North America. The other 93% are for convenience.

If you'll agree that 93% of abortions, the purely convenience ones, are all deeply evil, then I'll talk about the 7%.

So what do you say?
Sure. So long as you address the original points I made if I reiterate them.

No. I don't agree that abortions, even of convenience are deeply evil.

In my youth I agreed to abortions, not so sure it was out of convenience, there is the thought I still hold to that I and her would not have provided a good upbringing for children at the time (and now that I am far more mature, am certain of it)

Over to you.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:17 pm Then there are no terms on which you will not kill a baby.
This statement proves you are irrational. So according to that statement I could kill a baby because I was not happy with the level of milk in my cup of tea.
I gave you the terms that I aborted a foetus (not a baby btw) - and again, as someone that comprehends a soul - what did i do exactly? Did I terminate the eternal life of a soul? ANSWER THAT.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:17 pmThe truth, then, is that you don't see any special relevance in cases of rape or health crises: you are an advocate for killing babies for any reason.
A baby has a bond with a family that have usually embraced it, family have formed a bond a love. A foetus is far from that.
Again - the soul Immanuel - that's all that matters is it not - whether one has terminated a soul - is that what you are alluding to?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:17 pmI get it. But then, there's no more to say, since you have absolutely no moral reservations about infanticide. There are no criteria to which I can direct you...you accept none.
...and what if I told you I am a Christian? ...and that even as a Christian, God, since my 'evil' act has made me suffer more than Christ?

Where does your consideration of MY evil act stand now?

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:24 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:17 am Why do you care about the life of an entity that has not lived one especially in consideration that this entity has an indestructible soul?
All human beings are intrinsically valuable. Their lives are an opportunity given to them by God.
So God enshrined the life of someone that was impregnated by force - rape. ..and the mother of the child must love that offspring regardless of the memory of its conception?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:24 pmThat makes both them and their lives of infinite value.
So you are one of those that must inject the word infinite and beyond that, propose that there is also infinite value in a human being.
Please give me an example where any human has had infinite value.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:24 pmIt also makes them not property of other people to dispose of in any way they like, or to deprive of their unalienable right to a life.
What right to life? There are countless numbers of failed pregnancies occurring all the time, did 'God' decide those of failed pregnancies didn't have a right to life? But the ones impregnated by the force of rape did? - please explain.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:24 pmMurder's not wrong just because of what it does against the victim; it's also a crime against the One who gave them life.
This is a good point for me to readdress a point of mine you have avoided. That the soul is indestructible, a foetus has had no life, gained no love of relatives etc..ergo - nothing lost by way of love of loss - nothing lost by way of life ultimately since there is an indestructible soul. This soul from my comprehension, lives again from the stage of a foetus, reembeded within a womb and ultimate birth of a family that the 'soul' deserves.
The only thing that matters in your point - regarding murder (of a lived life) is that there are family/friends that loved that individual. There is no 'crime' against the 'one' that gave life (God), there is only a crime against the thing that matters most - and that is the love of those that have now lost their beloved.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 4138
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by attofishpi »

Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:27 pm And then, if your society forbade it, you face their justice. But if even if you don't, you answer to the Great Judge.
And free will is precisely that. Stop judging - let the Great Judge do his job.
EXACTLY!
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8724
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:30 pm Stop judging - let the Great Judge do his job.
You wouldn't want that. You might think you do, but you don't.

Better to make sure you've gotten right before you get there. There are no appeals, and the standard is perfect.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8724
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:32 pm ADDRESS ALL MY POINTS THIS TIME IF YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR OWN CONVICTIONS
I cannot.

If, on the abortion matter, you had any moral limits at all, then it would be possible. But you have declared you do not.

When there are no calibrations on the moral compass, there is no possibility of pointing out the right direction.
Post Reply