Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
So far IC sees a difference between the world of thought and the real world and Logik does not. I agree with IC on this point.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
Correspondence will do. The question is "Do our perceptions have an adequate correspondence to their source?" The answer might be "Yes."Logik wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:58 pmYou speak of (in)adequacy without specifying criteria.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:51 pm It's not inevitable. It might be true that our minds have mediated access to reality. But that won't give us reason to know that that access in inadequate, or to believe it's not giving us access to anything real. For certain, we are not simply picking our all own perceptions...some are "forced" upon us.
Oh, not at all. There's no agreement about that. Moreover, "harm" hangs undefined in that claim. It's certainly not uncontroversial.Disagree. The first principle of ethics is first do no harm.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:35 am To hedge off ontological questions would be arbitrary. In point of fact, the ontological precedes the ethical...you don't know what "the good" is if you haven't established already in your mind, even suppositionally, what "the real" is. Humanly speaking, mentally furnishing the world comes first: deciding what to do with it is secondary...except in the mind of God, since for Him creating and assigning roles would be identical acts.
If that were true, you'd simply pick your own reality. Nothing could be "compelled" upon you from outside.Unfortunately, this is a product of our "mediated access to reality". I have no access to ontology beyond that which I DECIDE is ontological.
I would say, "Classification is what a mind does with reality."Classification is a function of minds - not reality.
No, I mean the main topic of the strand. We're way off it. That's not fair to the original poster. If we wanted to wander farther, it would need a new strand.OK. Then I need to climb one abstraction higher: What do you use communication for?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:51 pm Okay, but #1 needs some unpacking. One doesn't "communicate" merely with oneself. That act presumes both issuer and recipient of communication. So there has to be common interpretation, at least within a functional range of accuracy. However, that's a far different topic from what's at the top of this message, so lets revert to the main.
Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
The epistemologic approach to this is the exact opposite of what you propose.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 pm Correspondence will do. The question is "Do our perceptions have an adequate correspondence to their source?" The answer might be "Yes."
I KNOW the map is not the territory. I KNOW my map is not a perfect representation of reality.
My model of reality IS wrong. I don't know HOW wrong. How wrong is too wrong?
Is there a limit to how "right" the map can be given how big reality is and how small my brain is?
Avoiding stupidity is far easier than seeking brilliance.
There is agreement among applied ethicists. Doctors. Systems engineers. The people who deal with risk and harm.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 pm Oh, not at all. There's no agreement about that. Moreover, "harm" hangs undefined in that claim. It's certainly not uncontroversial.
If you are suddenly disagreeing I am going to have to question your claim of being an "applied ethicist".
That's not true. Map corrections come from the outside. Where else would they come from?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 pm If that were true, you'd simply pick your own reality. Nothing could be "compelled" upon you from outside.
Classification is what the mind does with its map of reality.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 pm I would say, "Classification is what a mind does with reality."
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
There isn't one thing called "the epistemological approach." Epistemology is a broad field.Logik wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:23 pmThe epistemologic approach to this is the exact opposite of what you propose.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 pm Correspondence will do. The question is "Do our perceptions have an adequate correspondence to their source?" The answer might be "Yes."
But my claim here is intended to be very modest: only that we don't have reason to say we know that our mediated grasp of reality isn't sufficiently accurate to the truth. That's all.
Yes, but it's a "map" of something. A "map" refers to a real entity, and is a good "map" only if it corresponds sufficiently to its referent. So you'd need a different analogy if you wanted to say it had no adequate relation to reality.I KNOW the map is not the territory. I KNOW my map is not a perfect representation of reality.
You haven't even established what "harm" is. That's a serious problem. It's not obvious.There is agreement among applied ethicists. Doctors. Systems engineers. The people who deal with risk and harm.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 pm Oh, not at all. There's no agreement about that. Moreover, "harm" hangs undefined in that claim. It's certainly not uncontroversial.
I said I was an ethicist. I did not say I privileged the "applied" business above either normative or meta-ethics. I don't.If you are suddenly disagreeing I am going to have to question your claim of being an "applied ethicist".
In fact, if someone called me merely "an applied ethicist," I should actually be vaguely insulted -- to be without sophistication at the other two levels is pretty much to be an ethical clod. One can't "apply" without understanding the deeper issues and alternatives.
But to say that would be to argue from your own analogy. And as I said earlier, "map" is something that corresponds to reality.That's not true. Map corrections come from the outside. Where else would they come from?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 pm If that were true, you'd simply pick your own reality. Nothing could be "compelled" upon you from outside.
You don't "classify a map." You use a map to classify reality. Somebody who "classified maps" would be doing a very odd, redundant activity...or else is merely some kind of archivist, not a person navigating the place the map describes.Classification is what the mind does with its map of reality.
Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
It is a broad field, but what you are proposing (positive claims) is decidedly NOT in the field.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm There isn't one thing called "the epistemological approach." Epistemology is a broad field.
Epistemology is about negation.
Yes we do. Model errors. Systemic failures. Compound risk. Black swan events.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm But my claim here is intended to be very modest: only that we don't have reason to say we know that our mediated grasp of reality isn't sufficiently accurate to the truth. That's all.
When that we didn't know explodes in our face... That's a clear sign your map is wrong.
Do you not see the recursive problem here? How do you KNOW that your map "corresponds sufficiently to the referent" when you haven't defined "sufficiency".Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm Yes, but it's a "map" of something. A "map" refers to a real entity, and is a good "map" only if it corresponds sufficiently to its referent. So you'd need a different analogy if you wanted to say it had no adequate relation to reality.
The only hypothesis you can test is the opposite one: My Map does NOT correspond sufficiently to the referent.
Every mistake you make is evidence FOR the hypothesis. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis.
We could reasonabl say "the map is correspondent enough that it hasn't failed in 100 years" and then tomorrow it fails you.
This is the inductivist turkey problem.
The Boeing 737MAX crashing and killing 300 people is harmful.It shouldn't be happening. It's fucking obvious.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm You haven't even established what "harm" is. That's a serious problem. It's not obvious.
The entire potato produce of Ireland succumbs to blyth. Famine ensues. It shouldn't be happening. It's fucking obvious.
Right. So you are a theoretician? That's why you are so obtuse. You lack a sense of judgment.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm I said I was an ethicist. I did not say I privileged the "applied" business above either normative or meta-ethics. I don't.
Only a theoretician would be insulted by having skin in the game. That's why you are so naive.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm In fact, if someone called me merely "an applied ethicist," I should actually be vaguely insulted -- to be without sophistication at the other two levels is pretty much to be an ethical clod. One can't "apply" without understanding the deeper issues and alternatives.
The surest way of building safe airplanes is to make the engineers fly in them...
So? I learn from my mistakes. Unless my mistakes are fatal. Then I die. And you learn from my mistakes.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm But to say that would be to argue from your own analogy. And as I said earlier, "map" is something that corresponds to reality.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
Actually, it's not. Negation is only one area or strategy of epistemological thought. Verificationism, correspondence theory, empiricism, logical positivism...all are, in various ways, affirmation claims, not negations. And all are very squarely in the epistemology field.
We don't know that those are not exceptions or anomalies. In fact, your wording of them suggests they are.Yes we do. Model errors. Systemic failures. Compound risk. Black swan events.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm But my claim here is intended to be very modest: only that we don't have reason to say we know that our mediated grasp of reality isn't sufficiently accurate to the truth. That's all.
Consider "system failures," for example: a "failure" is only detectable because there is usually a "system" in play, and because much of the time it functions. Or "Black swan events": they only happen because most swans are accurately known to be white.
In other words, the occasional failure doesn't completely negate the value of the "map." It is enough for maps if the correspondence to reality is adequate...it does not have to be perfect. In fact, if it were perfect, you would not have a "map" at all: you'd have to have the thing-itself. And then, what would the "map" be for?
My claim was more modest than that: it was that we don't know it doesn't. It might well be sufficient for knowing swans to say that "most are white," and leave it at that. And we might have that much accuracy, in some things.How do you KNOW that your map "corresponds sufficiently to the referent"?
But my claim is not even that strong: it's that we can't confirm that we don't have that much.
Not quite. The fact that you can detect an "error" points to the fact that you have some grasp of what a "correct reading" would be. So there is at least a sufficient correspondence for you to be able to detect error. I would think that should be enough to lend some concern to my modest claim above.The only hypothesis you can test is the opposite one: My Map does NOT correspond sufficiently to the referent.
Every mistake you make is evidence FOR the hypothesis. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis.
Of course. But if it guided us faithfully for 100 years, we would have to admit it had a high degree of correspondence to reality. That's the other side of the problem.We could reasonabl say "the map is correspondent enough that it hasn't failed in 100 years" and then tomorrow it fails you.
The "negative" side of epistemology quickly becomes mere cynicism, mere glass-half-emptyism. But in point of fact, our "glass" of epistemological correspondence or knowledge of the real may not be only 50% full, but rather 85% or 99%. It depends on the question, of course.
Too easy a case, though even that can be cynically undermined -- perhaps they thereby, as Scrooge said, "decrease the surplus population," and we all do better as a result. But maybe that's "harm."The Boeing 737MAX crashing and killing 300 people is harmful.It shouldn't be happening. It's fucking obvious.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm You haven't even established what "harm" is. That's a serious problem. It's not obvious.
However, consider a harder case: is it good for women to be allowed to abort babies? Some will say "harm" consists in not permitting women to kill their babies at will, and some will say "harm" is killing babies. So in that case, how do you decide what "harm" really is?
Ha. No, and I wasn't insulting you, so relax.Right. So you are a theoretician? That's why you are so obtuse. You lack a sense of judgment.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm I said I was an ethicist. I did not say I privileged the "applied" business above either normative or meta-ethics. I don't.
I just said I wasn't such a clod as not to understand that without the right theory, ethics is just a power game played by the ignorant and willful. And I don't wish to be either. That's why I said..."In fact, if someone called me merely "an applied ethicist," I should actually be vaguely insulted..."
That might be right. But I think I would prefer my engineer to have a theoretical understanding of aerodynamics when he was creating the designs. I think the fly-'em-and-die method of testing merely at the applied level would be far too inefficient...and fatal.The surest way of building safe airplanes is to make the engineers fly in them...
Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
All of those the above things you mention are indeed in the field of epistemology.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pmActually, it's not. Negation is only one area or strategy of epistemological thought. Verificationism, correspondence theory, empiricism, logical positivism...all are, in various ways, affirmation claims, not negations. And all are very squarely in the epistemology field.
Negation is the most important one. Or as scientists call it: falsification.
Since YOU are the one who contrives a conjecture/theory/hypothesis, then YOU are the one who knows its weaknesses.
YOU are the one who can attack your own ideas best. Hence: It is cheaper and easier to prove yourself wrong than it is to prove yourself right.
Most "epistemologists" don't even try to prove themselves wrong. And a whole lot of people see counter-factual reasoning as contrarianism rather than "just another tool to improve knowledge".
Tsunamis are exceptions and anomalies.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm We don't know that those are not exceptions or anomalies. In fact, your wording of them suggests they are.
Meteorites striking Earth are exceptions and anomalies.
Floods and natural disasters are exceptions and anomalies
Airplanes falling out of the sky are exceptions and anomalies.
People dying in hospitals are exceptions and anomalies.
Are you suggesting that we should focus only on the norms, and ignore the exceptions?
Nobody says it negates the value of the map? I am merely challenging your claim that "your map may correspond SUFFICIENTLY".Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Consider "system failures," for example: a "failure" is only detectable because there is usually a "system" in play, and because much of the time it functions. Or "Black swan events": they only happen because most swans are accurately known to be white.
In other words, the occasional failure doesn't completely negate the value of the "map." It is enough for maps if the correspondence to reality is adequate...it does not have to be perfect. In fact, if it were perfect, you would not have a "map" at all: you'd have to have the thing-itself. And then, what would the "map" be for?
You can't justify the "sufficiency" claim. Ever. Because of the problem of induction. Because the principle of "no harm" is an unattainable ideal unless you were omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient e.g unless you had total control of the environment.
That ignores the principles of risk management. The severity of an issue is frequency * impact.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm My claim was more modest than that: it was that we don't know it doesn't. It might well be sufficient for knowing swans to say that "most are white," and leave it at that. And we might have that much accuracy, in some things.
But my claim is not even that strong: it's that we can't confirm that we don't have that much.
Your toaster failing 1 in 100 times is not the same thing as your parachute failing 1 in 100 times.
You don't die from lung cancer by smoking 1 cigarette - you die from lung cancer by repetitive, continuous exposure to the risk of smoking.
And yes. Because we can't predict the future and know such things it is literally why "better safe than sorry" applies.
It is literally why "symmetry" is an error. I'd rather be over-cautious than under-cautious.
You continue to ignore the principle of negation in epistemology.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Not quite. The fact that you can detect an "error" points to the fact that you have some grasp of what a "correct reading" would be.
I have no clue what "correct" means yet, but I am know for damn certain that airplanes should NOT be falling out of the sky.
HOW to prevent them from falling from the sky: THAT is the problem!
I am far more certain about what SHOULDN'T happen than I am of what SHOULD happen.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm So there is at least a sufficient correspondence for you to be able to detect error. I would think that should be enough to lend some concern to my modest claim above.
Inductivist turkey problem.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Of course. But if it guided us faithfully for 100 years, we would have to admit it had a high degree of correspondence to reality. That's the other side of the problem.
It becomes caution. You need not be cynical about the fact that 1 in 13000 people WILL die in a car accident in their lifetime.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm The "negative" side of epistemology quickly becomes mere cynicism, mere glass-half-emptyism. But in point of fact, our "glass" of epistemological correspondence or knowledge of the real may not be only 50% full, but rather 85% or 99%. It depends on the question, of course.
It's a fact. Doesn't seem to stop you from driving. So clearly you have some threshold at which the risk is worth the reward.
It's vague and stupid. Either he means "there are too many people on the planet" or he means "remove the dead weight".Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Too easy a case, though even that can be cynically undermined -- perhaps they thereby, as Scrooge said, "decrease the surplus population," and we all do better as a result. But maybe that's "harm."
And an easy way to convince yourself that he means the 2nd one is to recommend a fair-pruning algorithm. We will randomly select 30% of the planet for extermination So Scrooge has a 30% chance of not making selection. Watch his tune change.
Keep twisting the odds, because he question effectively boils down to: "Welcome to the eugenics lottery - what chance of being filtered out from society would you like?"
Not to mention that there are other ways to reduce the population within a generation or two. Disincentivise people from breeding.
You don't have to decide. Or at least - you don't have to worry about that problem until you have sorted out all the other dumpster fires.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm However, consider a harder case: is it good for women to be allowed to abort babies? Some will say "harm" consists in not permitting women to kill their babies at will, and some will say "harm" is killing babies. So in that case, how do you decide what "harm" really is?
Even if abortion was harm the impact is isolated, and has no broad negative impact on society. In fact, aborting unwanted children has a reduction on crime. So it's a nett positive for the trade-offs humanity is willing to make between risk vs reward.
And you also have to consider your own ability to regulate moral hazards - if you made abortion illegal it'll just move to the black market.
Unlike tsunamis.
I didn't take it as an insult. I am merely trying to gauge your experience to the real world and beyond reading about ethics from a textbook.
*shrug* I see zero value in theory. In fact - reading ethical theory is a lot like "yeah! we have known this since Hammurabi!"Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm I just said I wasn't such a clod as not to understand that without the right theory, ethics is just a power game played by the ignorant and willful. And I don't wish to be either. That's why I said..."In fact, if someone called me merely "an applied ethicist," I should actually be vaguely insulted..."
If the Wright Brothers took your advice you wouldn't even have an airplane.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm That might be right. But I think I would prefer my engineer to have a theoretical understanding of aerodynamics when he was creating the designs. I think the fly-'em-and-die method of testing merely at the applied level would be far too inefficient...and fatal.
But do observe. The reason you want an engineer to have a "theoretical grounding" is so that they don't repeat past mistakes. e.g your goal is error-minimisation.
Of course, all industries become stagnant and over-regulated and inefficient and so over time - enterpreneurial (high risk, high reward) opportunities present.
Like SpaceX.
The point in all of this is to get you to think in probabilities and distributions (continuums). The black-and-white thinking is harmful beyond belief.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
That's Karl Popper. He's only one voice, and his epistemology has some flaws. It was probably better than verificationism, but not ultimately the right answer.
However, what's clear is that negation isn't the only epistemological "game in town."
I haven't found that's so. But "confirmation bias" is always an issue, of course.Most "epistemologists" don't even try to prove themselves wrong.
No, not at all, of course. But I am suggesting that when one is in a forest, one might observe trees.Are you suggesting that we should focus only on the norms, and ignore the exceptions?
My claim was more modest: it was that you can't prove that sufficient correspondence doesn't exist. That's a subtle difference, but ultimately one of real import.I am merely challenging your claim that "your map may correspond SUFFICIENTLY".
No, I mentioned that. Different levels of certainty are appropriate to different questions. I'm happy to recognize that. In fact, you can see I did, when I wrote:That ignores the principles of risk management.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm My claim was more modest than that: it was that we don't know it doesn't. It might well be sufficient for knowing swans to say that "most are white," and leave it at that. And we might have that much accuracy, in some things.
But my claim is not even that strong: it's that we can't confirm that we don't have that much.
See?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm The "negative" side of epistemology quickly becomes mere cynicism, mere glass-half-emptyism. But in point of fact, our "glass" of epistemological correspondence or knowledge of the real may not be only 50% full, but rather 85% or 99%. It depends on the question, of course.
Of course I don't. You can see above that I've even identified its theoretical location in modern epistemology. I've just shown it's not the only game in town, and not by a long shot.You continue to ignore the principle of negation in epistemology.
Not so fast. Do not many environmentalists say the same? They argue we're overpopulated, and the deaths of a few million would be really good. In fact, it would prevent their "harm to the planet," so they say.It's vague and stupid.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Too easy a case, though even that can be cynically undermined -- perhaps they thereby, as Scrooge said, "decrease the surplus population," and we all do better as a result. But maybe that's "harm."
The point is simple: "harm" is not an uncontentious idea. One cannot just float it out there as if it were an uncontroversial first principle for ethics. That's clearly not true.
Oh, yes you do. If you don't abort, you'll have a baby on your hands. If you do, you will kill a human being. There's no possibility of not deciding.You don't have to decide.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm However, consider a harder case: is it good for women to be allowed to abort babies? Some will say "harm" consists in not permitting women to kill their babies at will, and some will say "harm" is killing babies. So in that case, how do you decide what "harm" really is?
It reduces everything, not just crime. It eliminates good people and geniuses too. That's the wondrous thing about abortion -- you never really know whom you're killing. In fact, it eliminates whole populations, when they fail to reproduce at a rate of replacement. And it eliminates far more women than men, which further impairs overall population sustenance. It's a kind of social suicide, really...not a good thing.Even if abortion was harm the impact is isolated, and has no broad negative impact on society. In fact, aborting unwanted children has a reduction on crime.
Good luck. There's not enough information about me out there for anybody to know. And I try to avoid ad hominem arguments, even in my own favour.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm I am merely trying to gauge your experience to the real world and beyond reading about ethics from a textbook.
Hmmm...you might be surprised.*shrug* I see zero value in theory. In fact - reading ethical theory is a lot like "yeah! we have known this since Hammurabi!"
If the Wright Brothers took your advice you wouldn't even have an airplane.[/quote]Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm That might be right. But I think I would prefer my engineer to have a theoretical understanding of aerodynamics when he was creating the designs. I think the fly-'em-and-die method of testing merely at the applied level would be far too inefficient...and fatal.
Oh, definitely not so. They had plenty of theory -- plenty of blueprints and plans. And if they had no theoretical knowledge of aerodynamics or gravity, they'd not have survived a first attempt.
No, it's because I want them to know what they're doing, and not to die being foolish. I kind of want them to stay around.The reason you want an engineer to have a "theoretical grounding" is so that they don't repeat past mistakes.
Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
If you know what the "right" answer is - you would tell us instead of beating around the bush. It's because you DON'T know is why knowledge-acquisition is systematic.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm That's Karl Popper. He's only one voice, and his epistemology has some flaws. It was probably better than verificationism, but not ultimately the right answer.
However, what's clear is that negation isn't the only epistemological "game in town."
Negation is the most important game in town. Your knowledge is "right" until it isn't. Negative feedback is how learning works.
Going out of one's way to prove oneself wrong is counter-intuitive to most humans.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm I haven't found that's so. But "confirmation bias" is always an issue, of course.
See this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKA4w2O61Xo
When one is in a forest one might observe the most pertinent threat to one's well being.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm No, not at all, of course. But I am suggesting that when one is in a forest, one might observe trees.
It's ultimately a difference of sophistry. You are asking us to prove a negative.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm My claim was more modest: it was that you can't prove that sufficient correspondence doesn't exist. That's a subtle difference, but ultimately one of real import.
Furthermore you are dragging the discussion into boolean existence/non-existence again.
Your map is "right" and continue to be "right" until reality provides evidence to the contrary.
I believe I already responded to this with: it's easier to avoid stupidity than seeking brilliance.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Of course I don't. You can see above that I've even identified its theoretical location in modern epistemology. I've just shown it's not the only game in town, and not by a long shot.
I'll further respond with: Survival comes first, truth, understanding, and science later
You do not need science to survive (we’ve done it for several hundred million years) , but you need to survive to do science. As your grandmother would have said, better safe than sorry.
And so ethics (risk management) is first and foremost - about survival. Otherwise - what's it for?
Environmentalists are short-term thinkers. There is no trajectory on which Earth remains Human-home forever. No matter how "sustainable" we become. No matter how "organic" we eat. There will come a point at which this planet WILL become uninhabitable - whether through our doing; or through the universe's doing. Ask the dinosaurs.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Not so fast. Do not many environmentalists say the same? They argue we're overpopulated, and the deaths of a few million would be really good. In fact, it would prevent their "harm to the planet," so they say.
The point is simple: "harm" is not an uncontentious idea. One cannot just float it out there as if it were an uncontroversial first principle for ethics. That's clearly not true.
And so, the only reason to give a shit about the environment is to avoid extinction in the short term. Once we have 100 planets to habitate. Who gives a fuck about Earth?
No. I mean YOU don't have to decide. I am under the impression that you lack the anatomy to become pregnant.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Oh, yes you do. If you don't abort, you'll have a baby on your hands. If you do, you will kill a human being. There's no possibility of not deciding.
Let those who have the anatomy decide.
While population growth is on the exponential rise it's far from a "social suicide". To make the "we need more geniuses" argument is basically a strategy based on winning the lottery. You think genius is nature, not nurture. Might as well preach for eugenics now.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm It reduces everything, not just crime. It eliminates good people and geniuses too. That's the wondrous thing about abortion -- you never really know whom you're killing. In fact, it eliminates whole populations, when they fail to reproduce at a rate of replacement. And it eliminates far more women than men, which further impairs overall population sustenance. It's a kind of social suicide, really...not a good thing.
And lastly: how would you even enforce anti-abortion laws? How are you going to prevent a teenage girl from going to the black market to seek an abortion?
Are you going to mandate monthly pregnancy tests for teenage girls so you can make sure they don't do such naughty things?
Your notion of "control" is skewed. There is a difference between controlling the general population towards a general direction; and controlling every single individual towards a particular direction.
Precision and control again. You can't control individuals as effectively as you can control masses.
Your words reveal more than you know.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Good luck. There's not enough information about me out there for anybody to know. And I try to avoid ad hominem arguments, even in my own favour.
Well no, I am NOT surprised - hence the problem. The emotion of surprise generally signals something unexpected, new information.
The lack of surprise in ethics literature is decidedly the problem.
Oh really? Where did that theory come from? Who created the knowledge for them to use? Surely SOMEBODY had to be first?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Oh, definitely not so. They had plenty of theory -- plenty of blueprints and plans. And if they had no theoretical knowledge of aerodynamics or gravity, they'd not have survived a first attempt.
And so you are going to teach them to "not be stupid" or what? Learning is not a process that works by wishful thinking.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm No, it's because I want them to know what they're doing, and not to die being foolish. I kind of want them to stay around.
In 1800 there is no book you could have read that can teach you ANYTHING about aerodynamics. SOMEBODY had to learn it SOMEHOW.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
I was only pointing out that "negating" isn't epistemology -- it's but one possible strategy among many.Logik wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:15 pmIf you know what the "right" answer is - you would tell us instead of beating around the bush.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm That's Karl Popper. He's only one voice, and his epistemology has some flaws. It was probably better than verificationism, but not ultimately the right answer.
However, what's clear is that negation isn't the only epistemological "game in town."
I don't think so. Descartes showed us that negation can take you to the point where you know nothing at all, save perhaps for your own existence. But even that remains uncertain as to what you are. In other words, being cynical if that's all one does, takes one not to knowledge but to a state of knowing essentially nothing at all.Negation is the most important game in town.
Yes, but philosophers try not to be "intuitive" in that way. They're famous for thinking about and casting doubt upon whatever others simply take for granted.Going out of one's way to prove oneself wrong is counter-intuitive to most humans.
Ah. I see the irony was lost.When one is in a forest one might observe the most pertinent threat to one's well being.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm No, not at all, of course. But I am suggesting that when one is in a forest, one might observe trees.
What I was suggesting is that the one thing you can certainly find in the forest is a whole lot of trees. Just so, when one is in the midst of things one knows, one would be unwise to focus exclusively on those things that appear problematic, as if they made everything else disappear. The problematic cases may well be far fewer than the obvious things. It is often so.
It wasn't my "ask." It was the supposition of anyone who works only on the negative side of epistemology. But you're right that they couldn't possibly prove their cynicism is actually correct. That is indeed an old problem with negatives. They don't prove things.It's ultimately a difference of sophistry. You are asking us to prove a negative.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm My claim was more modest: it was that you can't prove that sufficient correspondence doesn't exist. That's a subtle difference, but ultimately one of real import.
Now you're agreeing with what I suggested. You're positing the existence of both "map" and "reality." You're checking the former against the latter.Your map is "right" and continue to be "right" until reality provides evidence to the contrary.
Yes. It's very, very easy to be negative. Too easy. And it builds nothing. Being brilliant is much, much harder than being a cynic. Being a contributor of something positive is far harder than just negating what everybody else tries to do. But what conclusion should we draw from that? That being brilliant, positive or creative is bad? And being cynical, negative and merely deconstructive is good? Hardly.it's easier to avoid stupidity than seeking brilliance.
If ethics were about "survival," the only ethic would be, "Don't be at the back of the herd." All else would be up for grabs.And so ethics (risk management) is first and foremost - about survival. Otherwise - what's it for?
But that's not ethics. Gazelles do that on the Masi Mara, and they have no ethics at all. Humans can do better. Ethics is about good and evil, regardless of convenience, desire or even, sometimes, of survival.
Funny: that's what they say about us.Environmentalists are short-term thinkers.
Well, how about this thought: long before heat death happens, you and I will be dead too. That drive for survival is a race you and I are going to lose. As the old quip goes, "The mortality rate around here is 100% -- everybody dies."There is no trajectory on which Earth remains Human-home forever. No matter how "sustainable" we become. No matter how "organic" we eat. There will come a point at which this planet WILL become uninhabitable - whether through our doing; or through the universe's doing. Ask the dinosaurs.
So what is the real value of "survival," if that's all we do? Maybe we should be up to something more valuable while we're "surviving," no?
Who is "we"? You and i will have passed long before that happens. And had we a million such planets, they'd still have death on all of them.Once we have 100 planets to habitate.
No. I mean YOU don't have to decide. I am under the impression that you lack the anatomy to become pregnant.
Let those who have the anatomy decide.
Last time I checked, conception was a two person activity. And last time I checked, you're on the legal hook for what you contribute to.
While population growth is on the exponential rise it's far from a "social suicide".[/quote]Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm It reduces everything, not just crime. It eliminates good people and geniuses too. That's the wondrous thing about abortion -- you never really know whom you're killing. In fact, it eliminates whole populations, when they fail to reproduce at a rate of replacement. And it eliminates far more women than men, which further impairs overall population sustenance. It's a kind of social suicide, really...not a good thing.
It's not species-suicide, perhaps. But it is most certainly social suicide...your society will not survive if you do not procreate and pass it on to the next generation. Whatever comes in its place will not be your society.
No, I was just pointing out that when you kill babies, you have no idea whom you're killing. It could be Hitler or Albert Einstein, or a Rembrandt or a criminal. You just never know.To make the "we need more geniuses" argument is basically a strategy based on winning the lottery. You think genius is nature, not nurture. Might as well preach for eugenics now.
Did you ever wonder if the person who would have grown up to cure cancer, AIDS or some other dread disease was perhaps dispatched into a garbage pail in the back of some abortion place?
You're never going to do that. People will always do evil. But in a moral society, one should not encourage murder. Since the vast majority of abortions are purely convenience abortions, a lot of lives could be saved. But we're not trying.And lastly: how would you even enforce anti-abortion laws? How are you going to prevent a teenage girl from going to the black market to seek an abortion?
This is true. Masses have no conscience. Only individuals do.Precision and control again. You can't control individuals as effectively as you can control masses.
I'd be surprised if that were true.Your words reveal more than you know.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Good luck. There's not enough information about me out there for anybody to know. And I try to avoid ad hominem arguments, even in my own favour.
No, but trial with no theory ends up being fatal.And so you are going to teach them to "not be stupid" or what? Learning is not a process that works by wishful thinking.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm No, it's because I want them to know what they're doing, and not to die being foolish. I kind of want them to stay around.
Not true. The problem of flight long predated the Wright brothers. Nobody had solved it, but even DaVinci had had a try. And "lighter than air" craft, like balloons, were already well known. There was lots of theory; it was just incomplete.In 1800 there is no book you could have read that can teach you ANYTHING about aerodynamics. SOMEBODY had to learn it SOMEHOW.
Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
Nobody said that. I am merely pointing out that if it cannot survive negation it's not knowledge.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:58 pm I was only pointing out that "negating" isn't epistemology -- it's but one possible strategy among many.
Falsification is cheap. if I can falsify it - I don't have to verify it.
So what? Do you value knowing more than you value existing?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:58 pm I don't think so. Descartes showed us that negation can take you to the point where you know nothing at all, save perhaps for your own existence. But even that remains uncertain as to what you are. In other words, being cynical if that's all one does, takes one not to knowledge but to a state of knowing essentially nothing at all.
Philosophers are also known for trying to figure out if one horse is faster than another through "pure reason" instead of just racing them.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:58 pm Yes, but philosophers try not to be "intuitive" in that way. They're famous for thinking about and casting doubt upon whatever others simply take for granted.
The obvious things are not the things are not the things you need to worry about. It's the things that are in your blind spot....Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm What I was suggesting is that the one thing you can certainly find in the forest is a whole lot of trees. Just so, when one is in the midst of things one knows, one would be unwise to focus exclusively on those things that appear problematic, as if they made everything else disappear. The problematic cases may well be far fewer than the obvious things. It is often so.
Because the notion of "proof" is strictly in the domain of mathematics and logical deduction. Empiricism is about evidence, not proof.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm It wasn't my "ask." It was the supposition of anyone who works only on the negative side of epistemology. But you're right that they couldn't possibly prove their cynicism is actually correct. That is indeed an old problem with negatives. They don't prove things.
Nobody can "prove" to you that the Earth is round. I can show you photos from outer space, but I am not in control of your risk-aversion.
You could dismiss my photos as fakes. There is literally no way for me to know what you need to convince yourself. Literally no way for me to know where your uncertainty lies.
Unless you state it.
I am not checking anything against anything. If my model says X will happen so I anticipate X. When I experience Y instead of X then I KNOW my map is wrong. I don't know HOW it's wrong and what needs fixing (yet), but I know it's wrong.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Now you're agreeing with what I suggested. You're positing the existence of both "map" and "reality." You're checking the former against the latter.
When an airplane crashes - you know SOMETHING needs to change with safety protocols/design/equipment. But you don't know WHAT.\
All you know is that a sequence of events resulted in harm.
Being a brilliant cynic is even harder. What's your point?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Yes. It's very, very easy to be negative. Too easy. And it builds nothing. Being brilliant is much, much harder than being a cynic.
More black-and-white thinking. Why do you think it's one or the other? Have you heard nothing of what I have been saying?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Being a contributor of something positive is far harder than just negating what everybody else tries to do. But what conclusion should we draw from that? That being brilliant, positive or creative is bad? And being cynical, negative and merely deconstructive is good? Hardly.
I am the one BUILDING SAFE SYSTEMS. That means finding the right balance between uesful and dangerous.
And some people play by those rules. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm If ethics were about "survival," the only ethic would be, "Don't be at the back of the herd." All else would be up for grabs.
No it's not. That's the ideologue version. Ethics is about system engineering. Big picture stuff. Whether you think it's right to fuck your sister - it's none of my damn business.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm But that's not ethics. Gazelles do that on the Masi Mara, and they have no ethics at all. Humans can do better. Ethics is about good and evil, regardless of convenience, desire or even, sometimes, of survival.
So? Is that a good reason for temporal discounting? We are all in the same boat. You and I get to live in the world we live in because of everybody before us contributed something.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Well, how about this thought: long before heat death happens, you and I will be dead too. That drive for survival is a race you and I are going to lose. As the old quip goes, "The mortality rate around here is 100% -- everybody dies."
Point is still lost on you. You can't do anything "more valuable" while you are dead.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm So what is the real value of "survival," if that's all we do? Maybe we should be up to something more valuable while we're "surviving," no?
We humans. So you can't look further than your selfish nose?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Who is "we"? You and i will have passed long before that happens. And had we a million such planets, they'd still have death on all of them.
While you aren't dying at age 25 from a toothache and dysentery you can do something useful.
An unfortunate asymmetry. You have absolutely no say in the abortion once you donated your semen. Your control ends with the latex.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Last time I checked, conception was a two person activity. And last time I checked, you're on the legal hook for what you contribute to.
Sure it will be. All humans are my society. Perhaps not my values - but if my values went extinct. Guess what? That's how it works...Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm It's not species-suicide, perhaps. But it is most certainly social suicide...your society will not survive if you do not procreate and pass it on to the next generation. Whatever comes in its place will not be your society.
The one-man superhero dream team is a male ego myth. Multiple-concurrent discoveries is a thing. And so there's far more evidence suggesting that discoveries are social, rather than individual phenomena. That doesn't mean we should discourage lone rangers, but it does mean we shouldn't base our entire strategy on curing AIDS or cancer on them. That's the same as hoping we get lucky.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm No, I was just pointing out that when you kill babies, you have no idea whom you're killing. It could be Hitler or Albert Einstein, or a Rembrandt or a criminal. You just never know.
Did you ever wonder if the person who would have grown up to cure cancer, AIDS or some other dread disease was perhaps dispatched into a garbage pail in the back of some abortion place?
Problem-solving is a systematic mindset. It can be taught. Nobody is irreplaceable.
It's not black and white. In Portugal drugs are decriminalized. That doesn't mean drugs are encouraged. It simply means state resources are not being poured into the "problem". Guess what? Apparently it works better than throwing drug addicts in prison.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm You're never going to do that. People will always do evil. But in a moral society, one should not encourage murder. Since the vast majority of abortions are purely convenience abortions, a lot of lives could be saved. But we're not trying.
Where do you get theory from in a new field of research? Who creates the knowledge where no knowledge exists?
So if nobody had solved it then what did the theory say about building an airplane? Baloons work on completely different principles to airplanes.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm Not true. The problem of flight long predated the Wright brothers. Nobody had solved it, but even DaVinci had had a try. And "lighter than air" craft, like balloons, were already well known. There was lots of theory; it was just incomplete.
You are making my argument for me. The Wright brothers wrote the theory a posteriori successful experimentation.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
Not the point.So what? Do you value knowing more than you value existing?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:58 pm I don't think so. Descartes showed us that negation can take you to the point where you know nothing at all, save perhaps for your own existence. But even that remains uncertain as to what you are. In other words, being cynical if that's all one does, takes one not to knowledge but to a state of knowing essentially nothing at all.
To say, "cogito ergo sum" is to say only that I exist, but not that I can locate the world and do anything in it.
True. But again, not the point. Sometimes none of us has the ability or means to "race the horse," and we have to use other methods.Philosophers are also known for trying to figure out if one horse is faster than another through "pure reason" instead of just racing them.
Of course. But negation does not provide evidence either. All it does is negate someone else's if it can.Because the notion of "proof" is strictly in the domain of mathematics and logical deduction. Empiricism is about evidence, not proof.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm It wasn't my "ask." It was the supposition of anyone who works only on the negative side of epistemology. But you're right that they couldn't possibly prove their cynicism is actually correct. That is indeed an old problem with negatives. They don't prove things.
When your airplane crashes, you know nothing at all. You're dead.When an airplane crashes - you know SOMETHING needs to change with safety protocols/design/equipment. But you don't know WHAT.
Best not to "race the horse" in that case.
I'm pretty sure I made it...What's your point?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Being a contributor of something positive is far harder than just negating what everybody else tries to do. But what conclusion should we draw from that? That being brilliant, positive or creative is bad? And being cynical, negative and merely deconstructive is good? Hardly.
I never met one, and I suspect if you did you also wouldn't like them at all. They'd be keen to get you to the back of the herd.And some people play by those rules.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm If ethics were about "survival," the only ethic would be, "Don't be at the back of the herd." All else would be up for grabs.
Ha. That's one thing it's definitely not.No it's not. That's the ideologue version. Ethics is about system engineering.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm But that's not ethics. Gazelles do that on the Masi Mara, and they have no ethics at all. Humans can do better. Ethics is about good and evil, regardless of convenience, desire or even, sometimes, of survival.
"Contributed"? It sounds like you have some teleology in your back pocket there. What's the point of "contributing" when it's "survival of the fittest," and eventually you aren't the fittest and you die? Why should you care what happens after that.You and I get to live in the world we live in because of everybody before us contributed something.
(Heck, why should anybody care how things play out before that, for that matter?) There's no ethics there.
I wrote, "we should be up to something more valuable while we're surviving." I didn't say anything about after death. I accept that you believe death ends all. I just asked if you had really faced the consequences of that belief.Point is still lost on you. You can't do anything "more valuable" while you are dead.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm So what is the real value of "survival," if that's all we do? Maybe we should be up to something more valuable while we're "surviving," no?
In a "survival of the fittest" world, who cares? Selfishness isn't even wrong, then: it's probably adaptive. In any case, it's certainly optional then.We humans. So you can't look further than your selfish nose?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Who is "we"? You and i will have passed long before that happens. And had we a million such planets, they'd still have death on all of them.
Some are, and some aren't. One thing for sure: take a Vivaldi or a Pasteur out of the equation, and the same things don't happen....there's far more evidence suggesting that discoveries are social, rather than individual phenomena.
Actually, it is. Death is like that. If you kill something, you don't get a second choice. That's very black and white.It's not black and white.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm You're never going to do that. People will always do evil. But in a moral society, one should not encourage murder. Since the vast majority of abortions are purely convenience abortions, a lot of lives could be saved. But we're not trying.
Some things genuinely are.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
Why do you care about the life of an entity that has not lived one especially in consideration that this entity has an indestructible soul?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:10 pmPeople will always do evil. But in a moral society, one should not encourage murder. Since the vast majority of abortions are purely convenience abortions, a lot of lives could be saved.
Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
Why do you want to do anything WITH the world? To what end/purpose?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:10 pm To say, "cogito ergo sum" is to say only that I exist, but not that I can locate the world and do anything in it.
If your goal was to know the answer - there is no other method. Either you race the horses, or somebody races the horses for you.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:10 pm True. But again, not the point. Sometimes none of us has the ability or means to "race the horse," and we have to use other methods.
Or somebody did a statistical analysis on muscle mass to probability of race-winning experiment.
You have a yes/no question: Is horse A faster than horse B?
It boils down to three mathematical statements:
A > B
A = B
A < B
It requires 1 bit of information to disambiguate the inequalities.
Somebody, somehow needs to extract that information from somewhere.
Is that a claim for 100% of plane crashes being 100% fatal? Or just you dragging the discussion into the mud?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm When your airplane crashes, you know nothing at all. You're dead.
The easiest way to put me at the back of the herd is to overtake me.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm I never met one, and I suspect if you did you also wouldn't like them at all. They'd be keen to get you to the back of the herd.
OK. I guess we have to agree to disagree:
How complex systems fail
From Safety I to SafetyII
Back pocket? I've been screaming teleology from the top of my lungs from day 1. Without purpose (criteria for success/failure) all philosophy is sophistry.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm "Contributed"? It sounds like you have some teleology in your back pocket there. What's the point of "contributing" when it's "survival of the fittest," and eventually you aren't the fittest and you die? Why should you care what happens after that.
(Heck, why should anybody care how things play out before that, for that matter?) There's no ethics there.
Epistemology without criterion - sophistry.
Ethics without criterion: sophistry.
You can't divorce epistemology from ethics, even though some try really hard.
Your understanding of "survival of the fittest' lacks perspective. It lacks the [/url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_preference]Temporal discounting[/url].
If you are looking for a material reason: working on problems that matter while you are alive makes you rich.
If you are looking for an emotional reason: if you act towards the common good you go to Heaven.
Pick your argument. The idea/goal behind both is the same. To counter human temporal discounting. e.g short-term thinking.
You do understand that "surviving" is not a passive exercise, right? What you DO feeds back into the system.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm I wrote, "we should be up to something more valuable while we're surviving." I didn't say anything about after death. I accept that you believe death ends all. I just asked if you had really faced the consequences of that belief.
If you invest your energy into the top 10 causes of human death (heart disease, cancer, etc.) that is valuable BECAUSE it leads to longer human lifespan e.g survival.
You don't even understand what "survival of the fittest means".Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm In a "survival of the fittest" world, who cares? Selfishness isn't even wrong, then: it's probably adaptive. In any case, it's certainly optional then.
If you play the survival game by the "me, me ,me!" strategy you live to 35 (no society, no doctors, no fire brigades, no safety nets)
If you play the survival game by the "us, us, us!" strategy you live to 85.
I am playing the "survival of the fittest" game. That's why I've chosen the cooperative strategy.
Take society out of the equation and Pasteur would've had no time to play the silly "science" game.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Some are, and some aren't. One thing for sure: take a Vivaldi or a Pasteur out of the equation, and the same things don't happen.
Your binary mindset is getting rather painful.
No. It's not black and white.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Actually, it is. Death is like that. If you kill something, you don't get a second choice. That's very black and white.
Some things genuinely are.
Not actively working towards preventing murder is NOT the same as encouraging it.
Like I said - your binary mindset is tedious...
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?
You should note that "race the horse" was in quotations. I was speaking metaphorically.Logik wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:17 amWhy do you want to do anything WITH the world? To what end/purpose?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:10 pm To say, "cogito ergo sum" is to say only that I exist, but not that I can locate the world and do anything in it.
If your goal was to know the answer - there is no other method.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:10 pm True. But again, not the point. Sometimes none of us has the ability or means to "race the horse," and we have to use other methods.
Let me put it very simply: trial and error is fine, so long as the "error" end is not too costly. But if you're building airplanes, it's not a good idea to have no theory about what you're doing, and just go jump off a cliff. That would indeed be trial and error, but you'd only do it once.
Likewise, if you want to measure the dimensions of a stellar phenomenon, you're going to have to use mathematics, not hand measurement. You can't "race the horse" in that case.
There are many such cases. Ergo, trial and error is not the only method. Sometimes, it's not even a possible method.
Maybe. But the lions still get you. There's no ethics in that.The easiest way to put me at the back of the herd is to overtake me.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm I never met one, and I suspect if you did you also wouldn't like them at all. They'd be keen to get you to the back of the herd.
The problem, then, is justifying your particular telos. It's controversial.Back pocket? I've been screaming teleology from the top of my lungs from day 1.
But this is only a verbal trick. "You" are not alive. "You" do not survive. And logically, whether or not the human race goes on while you are in the eternal black oblivion of death cannot be a matter of concern to you, either then or now. It's not wrong for your to take out the whole human race with you, and it's not right of you to perpetuate it. The very terms right and wrong no longer have referent, then.You do understand that "surviving" is not a passive exercise, right? What you DO feeds back into the system.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm I wrote, "we should be up to something more valuable while we're surviving." I didn't say anything about after death. I accept that you believe death ends all. I just asked if you had really faced the consequences of that belief.
If you invest your energy into the top 10 causes of human death (heart disease, cancer, etc.) that is valuable BECAUSE it leads to longer human lifespan e.g survival.
Nietzsche knew this.
That's simplistic, and it turns out to be wrong. I know it's what they "altruism-believing" set wants to believe, but it just doesn't stand up to the facts.You don't even understand what "survival of the fittest means".Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm In a "survival of the fittest" world, who cares? Selfishness isn't even wrong, then: it's probably adaptive. In any case, it's certainly optional then.
If you play the survival game by the "me, me ,me!" strategy you live to 35 (no society, no doctors, no fire brigades, no safety nets)
If you play the survival game by the "us, us, us!" strategy you live to 85.
The most effective survival game is getting the "us" to do what "I" want, but "I" being able to exempt myself from all the rules. Then the "I" not only survives, but triumphs.
Not cooperation, but everybody else cooperating with me and I being left free to do as I see fit...that's the real win in an amoral universe.
Nietzsche also understood this.
You mean you've discovered ways to revivify corpses? I think not. It's binary, alright.No. It's not black and white.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm Actually, it is. Death is like that. If you kill something, you don't get a second choice. That's very black and white.
Some things genuinely are.