Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:02 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:16 am
Exactly like you have and you will have an opportunity to solve abortion.
Nobody can solve the problem of the wickedness of another. That's what free will entails. It means people have "freedom" to do the wrong thing, as well as the right one. But that does not make what they do "not-wickedness," and it does not get anybody off the hook in the Final Judgment.

What one can do about abortion is to plead with and warn people -- who have free will -- to take responsibility for themselves, stop being wicked, and seek the forgiveness of the Judge. And because people have free will, they can change their minds about what they've done.

Age
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Age » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:23 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:10 pm
Y?
If 'God' means, or partly means, Creator, of ALL things, then God MUST have created the Universe, obviously. How this actually happens can be very simply and easily explained also.

Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:32 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:02 pm
Nobody can solve the problem of the wickedness of another.
Another lame excuse.

What you call "wickedness" is being less concerned with abortion while giving a shit about heart disease, cancer, lung disease - all the things that kill BILLIONS every year. That's exercising our Free Will.

You are worrying about mice when you are surrounded by tigers.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:49 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:32 pm
What you call "wickedness" is being less concerned with abortion while giving a shit about heart disease, cancer, lung disease - all the things that kill BILLIONS every year. That's exercising our Free Will.
Well, as an engineer, I'm sure you agree that facts are more important that feelings. So here are the facts.

If you make this a numbers game (as you have above, citing "BILLIONS") then the truth is this: around 610,000 people, many old and at the end of life, die of heart disease in the U.S. every year. In fact, if one lives long enough, heart disease is almost inevitably going to be the cause of death, so that's an entirely unsurprising statistic. There are always going to be elderly folks passing away by heart attacks, and rather a lot of them, no matter what anybody does.

Meanwhile, there are around 638,169 declared abortions in the U.S.(Centre for Disease Control)...all of them helpless children with their lives ahead of them. Disproportionately more girls are murdered than boys. And of those deaths, 93% were pure murders-of-convenience: by any account, they simply did not need to happen.

I don't think you can make the case you want to. In fact, I know you can't.

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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:49 pm
If you make this a numbers game (as you have above, citing "BILLIONS") then the truth is this: around 610,000 people, many old and at the end of life, die of heart disease in the U.S. every year. In fact, if one lives long enough, heart disease is almost inevitably going to be the cause of death, so that's an entirely unsurprising statistic. There are always going to be elderly folks passing away by heart attacks, and rather a lot of them, no matter what anybody does.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You think babies' lives matter more than old peoples' lives!
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:24 pm
All human beings are intrinsically valuable. Their lives are an opportunity given to them by God. That makes both them and their lives of infinite value.
You fucking ageist!

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:59 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:56 pm
You think babies' lives matter more than old peoples' lives!
No, but the elderly do die, through nobody's fault, and you can't do a thing about it.

Meanwhile, abortions voluntary, and perpetrated against people who would not die otherwise.

It's not ageism -- it's that annoying thing again: facts.

Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:59 pm
No, but the elderly do die, through nobody's fault, and you can't do a thing about it.
Absolute fucking bullshit!

We have almost doubled human life expectancy in 300 years. Through science and medicine we have quite literally we have re-defined the meaning of 'old' from 40 to 80.

https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy

I told you that your moral compass is fucked up...

thedoc
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by thedoc » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:59 pm
Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:56 pm
You think babies' lives matter more than old peoples' lives!
No, but the elderly do die, through nobody's fault, and you can't do a thing about it.

Meanwhile, abortions voluntary, and perpetrated against people who would not die otherwise.

It's not ageism -- it's that annoying thing again: facts.
Again IC expounds the rational view and Logik states the emotional unrealistic view. I favor the rational view.

thedoc
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by thedoc » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:30 pm

I have the LVAD and a defibrillator which are extending my life. Several times I have died and medical technology has brought me back, but someday I will die and technology will not save me. I am resigned to that fact and I am thankful for the opportunity to live on but I take the rational view that everyone will die someday and there is nothing to do about it.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:32 pm

thedoc wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:30 pm
I have the LVAD and a defibrillator which are extending my life. Several times I have died and medical technology has brought me back, but someday I will die and technology will not save me. I am resigned to that fact and I am thankful for the opportunity to live on but I take the rational view that everyone will die someday and there is nothing to do about it.
I could not possibly have put it better.

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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:34 pm

thedoc wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:18 pm
Again IC expounds the rational view and Logik states the emotional unrealistic view. I favor the rational view.
thedoc wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:30 pm
I have the LVAD and a defibrillator which are extending my life. Several times I have died and medical technology has brought me back, but someday I will die and technology will not save me. I am resigned to that fact and I am thankful for the opportunity to live on but I take the rational view that everyone will die someday and there is nothing to do about it.
Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:59 pm
No, but the elderly do die, through nobody's fault, and you can't do a thing about it.
Absolute fucking bullshit!

We have almost doubled human life expectancy in 300 years. Through science and medicine we have quite literally we have re-defined the meaning of 'old' from 40 to 80.

https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy

I told you that your moral compass is fucked up...
Your level of stupid angers me.

You are living proof for the effectiveness of science and medicine.
You are living proof that there is actually something we CAN DO about death.
If you are older than 40 you are "dead" in 1750 terms. And you are claiming that I am the one arguing on emotion and not facts.

Say it out loud and clear because I don't believe you. You would much preferred to have died at 40 than to be here, typing this response?

thedoc
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by thedoc » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:40 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:59 pm
No, but the elderly do die, through nobody's fault, and you can't do a thing about it.
Absolute fucking bullshit!

We have almost doubled human life expectancy in 300 years. Through science and medicine we have quite literally we have re-defined the meaning of 'old' from 40 to 80.

https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy

I told you that your moral compass is fucked up...
Your numbers are off by quite a bit.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:40 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:34 pm
You are living proof for the effectiveness of science and medicine.
Not forever.

If I lived to be 200, the fact would still remain: "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this, the Judgment."

Now, there's an inescapable fact.

Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:40 pm

thedoc wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:40 pm
Your numbers are off by quite a bit.
No. They aren't.

Life expectancy of an infant at 1750: 40 years.
Life expectancy of an infant in 2019: +- 80 years.

Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:40 pm
Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:34 pm
You are living proof for the effectiveness of science and medicine.
Not forever.

If I lived to be 200, the fact would still remain: "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this, the Judgment."

Now, there's an inescapable fact.
Holy. Fucking. Shit.

I don't wan't to live on the same planet as this idiot.

I will gladly come before your God and tell him "I doubled human life expectancy. I cured cancer. I prevented death."

If that gets me to Hell - fuck your God.

If we can double human life expectancy in 300 years, imagine what we can do to revamp Hell given eternity and immortality!

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