Why is pride a sin?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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gaffo
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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by gaffo » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:07 am

-1- wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:25 am
gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:41 am
bogwash, DNA is god for all that were born via DNA, man is a social animal born with DNA right and wrong, your hogwash notwithstanding Sir.
gaffo, you mistake "sin" for "morals".
i equate the two as one and the same.
-1- wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:25 am
You described morals and ethics with your eloquent defense of not doing harm to others.
i thank you for the complement - "eloquent" - i equate morals with sin/rightiouness - same in my book.

if not the same in other's books (fundies - from any religion) - then they view is not mine, they are free to have their wrong view, and i'll call them out on why they view morals and sin/rightousness as not the same.

then they will just ignore my posts on the matter.

- and all ignorance and wisdom from those that have one or the other - shall continue on in their realms.

-1- wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:25 am
But sin is differently defined. Sin is a directive given by god, not a man-made condemnation.

I understand your point - i do really - but view myself the bigger picture (man by DNA is "good" - his view of his God/s - being a reflection of him, will be generally good, so "Sin" is same is "Morality".

yes there will always be some dicks - author/s of Leviticus - book is shit, its view of God is same. Ezra was too - his book is similarlly garbage. as is some of the Torah.

I note the theme of the books in the bible - via my morality (does the author's view of "god" fit mine? - if not, then that author's view of "sin" is not mine, but the author's and his view of his god).

I have morals, and equate sin with immorality and rightiousness with morality, and why i value the message of the OT bible works Jonah (author was saying the Jonah being a "beleiver in the right God" was a dick, while the pagan fisherman being heathens beleiving in many foreign gods, acted morally, while Jonah never did and just sleeped through the storm.

Amos (author of) - is another work i value - ie, do not welcome the end of the world and assume you are "saved" just for appearing rightious, while the little folks you ingore starve, and you relish assuming others not worshiping the correct god with be destroyed.

Amos (note the last part was added centuries later and negates the original authors theme of his work) states that if you are a dick (as a people - arrogant, assuming you are rightious and welcome the end of the world and destruction of your enemies) you will loose your "God's Chosen" - amos is clear, being "chosen" means a responsibility,not a privaledge (something Israel/Judaic Israelis (80-percent of in that land) should, but no not note being privalaged/racist assholes) .......(God will throw the Jews to the curb and adopt Ethoipians (who author references in his work - the concept of course includes all persons in all lands not just Etheopeans)........last part of Amos ( the concept of Judiac adoption by God as His people is unconditional) was added centuries later (this is not disputed by bibilical scholars), and i ignore as jewish propoganada

-1- wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:25 am
Possessing pride rightfully is not unethical.
I don't like the term "pride" - self love is fine. all should self love, even the narcisist, i do not think it ever good to self hate, even if Ted Bundy.

self knowledge is the most important of course, then self love.

pride - the word to me is not introspective to me - more bragging mentality.

-----that my view of that word, it not fixed. if your view is more akin to "self love" then fine. thats just my view of that word equating self love/forgiveness.

to me "pride" seems the opposite of "humility" and so why i don't like it.
-1- wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:25 am
It is a sin, though, by Christian standards.


I think christians/etc(beleivers in any god/s) veiw as I do, that self love is fine, but pride is more partisan (bragging/cutting down others while lifting self up (naricisistic).

your whole argument i suspect may be symantic/concept of what "pride" is - to you, me, and "Beleivers" - if we viewed that words in the same way, i think we would end up in agreement. imo.
-1- wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:25 am
That should shed light for you on the difference between sin and immorality.
ok. thanks for reply, appreciate discussion

I assume you are an Atheist like me? not that it matters to me - just wondering, and assumed by this reply.

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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by -1- » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:56 am

Gaffo, you seem to be saying that Christians mean "boastfulness" when they say "pride".

I am not sure if that's right, but it could be. It's not worth investigating. Perhaps the English language was not developed enough yet to discern between the two when at first the bible was translated, and later translators, who could have done a better job at getting the right word for the right meaning just left it at that.

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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by -1- » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:00 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:07 am
I assume you are an Atheist like me? not that it matters to me - just wondering, and assumed by this reply.
I am not sure I am like you :-) but yes, I am an atheist. You are incredibly well-versed in the bible, so unlike me, you I figure to be an apostate.

I just don't know which you are: a Jewish or a Christian apostate?

roydop
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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by roydop » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:28 pm

Pride is an incorrect perspective, as there is no individual self from which to derive pride. Pride, like all manufactured states, is maya (illusion) and therefore "sin".

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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by -1- » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:40 pm

roydop wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:28 pm
Pride is an incorrect perspective, as there is no individual self from which to derive pride. Pride, like all manufactured states, is maya (illusion) and therefore "sin".
This was certainly a conversation-stopper.

What can one say in reply to this post?

I'll try to recap this post by roydop.

1. Self does not exist.
2. Pride is derived from the self.
3. Therefore pride is only an illusion.
4. All illusions are sins.
5. Therefore Pride is a sin. QED.

I have problems with 1. and with 4. I believe the Self exists. But that's not negotiable, I assume, by roydop.

But 4 is negotiable. According to roydop, illusion is a sin. And sin is going against God's wishes. But god's existence is an illusion. So if all illusions are sins, then god is an illusion, and a sin at the same time; and going against an illusion is not a sin (since illusions are sins, and going against sins is not a sin but a virtue); so going against god is not a sin; therefore illusions are not sins. (And start all over again.)

This creates a perfectly symmetrical flip-flop paradox.

roydop
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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by roydop » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:30 am

-1- wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:40 pm
roydop wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:28 pm
Pride is an incorrect perspective, as there is no individual self from which to derive pride. Pride, like all manufactured states, is maya (illusion) and therefore "sin".
This was certainly a conversation-stopper.

What can one say in reply to this post?

I'll try to recap this post by roydop.

1. Self does not exist.
2. Pride is derived from the self.
3. Therefore pride is only an illusion.
4. All illusions are sins.
5. Therefore Pride is a sin. QED.

I have problems with 1. and with 4. I believe the Self exists. But that's not negotiable, I assume, by roydop.

But 4 is negotiable. According to roydop, illusion is a sin. And sin is going against God's wishes. But god's existence is an illusion. So if all illusions are sins, then god is an illusion, and a sin at the same time; and going against an illusion is not a sin (since illusions are sins, and going against sins is not a sin but a virtue); so going against god is not a sin; therefore illusions are not sins. (And start all over again.)

This creates a perfectly symmetrical flip-flop paradox.
Self (you) exists, but all is you. There isn't anything that isn't you. Even, and especially, what we call "nothing" is you and me.

I put "sin" in quotations to express that what people see as "sin" is more accurately described as "illusion." If you wish, one could loosely say that sin is the equivalent of being taken in/fooled by the illusion. Or sinful actions arise out of the state of delusion of taking the illusion as substantial.

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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by -1- » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:03 am

Roydop, thank you for your more in-depth explanation.

Ramu
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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by Ramu » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:16 pm

Pride only misses the mark from the perspective of one who moralizes. Mobilization misses the mark because it fragments reality. Reality Is. If someone has pride that's what's supposed to happen. Should and should note are terms used to fragment reality. There IS no moral compass. It's a silly concept. There is no ultimate authority.

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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by Ramu » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:17 pm

Should read, moralization misses the mark

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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:16 pm

Yep, it all boils down to morality, and what's the best thing way to think about something, but this thinking can cause a problem when no problem existed before.
To make moral is an immoral thing to do, for to claim anything should be a certain way is to create tension and separation.

No baby was ever born moral, sinful, or full of pride, or evil or bad or good ..these ideas are concepts known superimposed on the baby as knowledge from an outside source namely, a word as thought to exist, but does not... knowledge being an illusion within what is pure aware non-knowing beingness.

The stateless state of being is just what it is without borders or limitations .. put on it artificially in the form of identification with thought.
Thoughts are just empty llusions.

If thought is good for anything at all..then that is making thought good...for no intelligent thought would ever shit on itself, it would stay pristine and clean.



.

gaffo
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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by gaffo » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:38 am

-1- wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:56 am
Gaffo, you seem to be saying that Christians mean "boastfulness" when they say "pride".

I am not sure if that's right, but it could be.

thats my take on the term "pride" and Christian's view of the word.


-1- wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:56 am
It's not worth investigating.
why not? I think the issue is worthy myself.

-1- wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:56 am
Perhaps the English language was not developed enough yet to discern between the two when at first the bible was translated, and later translators, who could have done a better job at getting the right word for the right meaning just left it at that.

Indeed, languages are limited - refer to Greek? for the unable translations to Latin, and later English concerning "Relatives" (Jesus' never had brothers! per Catholic dogma (why?, Greek is vague concerning "relatives" - so brothers could be cousins..................due to limited linguitics, and maybe a Catholic (Latin agenda - i.e. translate the original language in a way - under limited nature of the orignal text - to retranslate into the latter language (latin) - "accurately" (if you hold your nose - accurate technically, but not in spirit (for cousin and brother are the same in Greek, but not Latin...................so just translate the original work to confirm your prior bias - "Jesus could never have borthers/sisters!"................and noting an understanding of Greek and Latin, one can "honestly" translate the Greek into the Latin - and so remove the notion that Jesus had Brothers/sisters..................just point out that the Greek is not precise and the new Vulgate bible just is translating the more accurate "bible".



its all good. lol.

--------------and yes you are correct all languages are inaccurate, one only needs to be honest - noting the intent of the author, and knowing his/her language, interpret it to the best of an honest translator can do.

and with honesty, translations offer 98 percent accuracy - noting all languages are also only 98 percent accurate.

lol.

gaffo
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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by gaffo » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:19 am

-1- wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:00 am
gaffo wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:07 am
I assume you are an Atheist like me? not that it matters to me - just wondering, and assumed by this reply.
I am not sure I am like you :-) but yes, I am an atheist.
wise retort, my best friend of 45 yrs is a Christian, unlike me, and yet is like me.

whereas i'm sure there are plenty of athiests out there not like me at all.

-1- wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:00 am
You are incredibly well-versed in the bible,
I thank you on thinking i'm incredibly well verses on the "Bible".

I think i'm well verses, but not incredibly so........but value to become so.

why? being an Atheist?

I've been an Atheist since 1980, so my Athiesm predates my interest in "the bible" by 5 yrs or so.

why interest in the "bible"?

not sure why, just like to "disect" theologies (ok, in reply to you i rem now my interest in read Genesis in mid 70s (while i was around 9, and read "we" and "us" - and thinking WTF is "we/us" - if there is only God (YHWH). that started my "thinking" - and decent to damnation to hell as an athiest.

lol. or not lol (if God exists and is also a dick) - then i'm fucked and will much company.


----I've digressed, basically, I've been a Universal Humanist since a kid of - like 9 - and assumed most folks are good, and so most "religious texts" are also good.

and most are - i've read most of the OT, and less but still most of the NT, and the same for the Koran.

I just still have a mind (conscience) and when reading works in those Three Western "bibles" - if i start smelling a stench from Demark, i conclude the author of that book - found in the NT/OT/Koran - is an asshole and so his view of his God is like him an Ass. (if God is an ASS is not my war - if he exists and is an ass, I'm fucked - and so not worry about it/nor God - i hope the asshole author's view is wrong about his god, etc...................either way, i continue to read "old works" (Ive read Gnostic/Lost NT/OT texts (many offer wise views of theological precepts- Juballess esp, and Enoch is more also likewise more worthy than where both ended up - outside of the "bible/NT/OT".


-1- wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:00 am
so unlike me, you I figure to be an apostate.
no, I'm you, an apostate, for sadly most Christians are also narrow minded (never actually read the Bible/nor if the few that did understood the themes, and comdenm Athiests - whether we know more about their Bible or not.

-1- wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:00 am
I just don't know which you are: a Jewish or a Christian apostate?
From my "learning" over the years, i think Jesus' father was a Syrian soldier named "Pantara", and in general - not one to "turn the my cheek to a bully to be hit and love before or after he hits me, I think I'm an Atheist Jew - I NEVER affirm Striking First!, but fully support not loving my dickish enemies! - and instead Striking them back with EQUAL (not more nor less!!!!!!!!!!) force after they affront me without just cause.

so ya, though respect Jesus' message as in ideal (and i do think that person existed (a man like you and me, and killed by Romans out of fear he was gathering too many followers - not god nor son of bla bla) - but i do think - what is given us from the Bible (which is little - 9/10 of is the authors of the books, not the man they write about) - he was worthy of calling a friend if i were born near him and in his time. I think he had a vision of a greater good, a jewish essene, follower of John the Baptist, but not as "tribal" as John- saw the "bigger picture" - but like all idealists, lacked the cynicsm to know he was "dead man walking"

BTW - (yes i know of Nation of Islam's Racist theology, Malcolm outgrow his adopted "cult/religion") - i view Malcom X and Ghandi in the same ilk, and Jesus' equal, and they also were killed sadly.

thanks for reply Sir, and look forward to conversing with you more.

Ramu
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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by Ramu » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:14 pm

Atheism is a belief system just like religion and just as dogmatic.

gaffo
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Re: Why is pride a sin?

Post by gaffo » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:26 am

Ramu wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:14 pm
Atheism is a belief system just like religion and just as dogmatic.
not as clear cut, like "beleivers" many Athiest are not dogmatic.

I'm one of the non-dogmatic Athiests.

and yes there are many dogmatic Athiestics, as there are Believers.

and many that are not - of all ilks.

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