On simplicity of God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:57 am

seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 am
And just for clarification purposes, are you arguing for the existence of a sentient God, or against the existence of a sentient God?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:57 am
I am arguing against simplicity of God.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 am
Again, you are sidestepping my questions.

Let me rephrase:

Do you think that God is a conscious entity that is aware of its own “I-Am-ness”?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:57 am
Let's assume so. What do you want to show?
Well, one thing that I want to show is that your characterization of God in such abstract terms as “God is love,” or “God is justice,” is just plain silly if God is indeed a conscious entity with a personal identity.

If abstract labels sound silly when applied to a sentient and self-aware entity such as you, for example, as in - “bahman is love,” or “bahman is justice,” then why apply them to God?
_______

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:30 pm

seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:57 am
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 am
And just for clarification purposes, are you arguing for the existence of a sentient God, or against the existence of a sentient God?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:57 am
I am arguing against simplicity of God.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 am
Again, you are sidestepping my questions.

Let me rephrase:

Do you think that God is a conscious entity that is aware of its own “I-Am-ness”?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:57 am
Let's assume so. What do you want to show?
Well, one thing that I want to show is that your characterization of God in such abstract terms as “God is love,” or “God is justice,” is just plain silly if God is indeed a conscious entity with a personal identity.

If abstract labels sound silly when applied to a sentient and self-aware entity such as you, for example, as in - “bahman is love,” or “bahman is justice,” then why apply them to God?
_______
I already discuss that God like us cannot be subject to time.

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attofishpi
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by attofishpi » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:07 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm
...but that is an impossibility since time either has a beginning or not. In first case one can ask how time comes into existence from nothing (remember that God is subjected to time therefore He cannot create time). We are dealing with an impossibility in the second case too, God cannot wait eternity to create the universe at a moment.
Why are you so constrained to a belief that if there is a 'God' that it created time and matter?

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:59 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:07 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm
...but that is an impossibility since time either has a beginning or not. In first case one can ask how time comes into existence from nothing (remember that God is subjected to time therefore He cannot create time). We are dealing with an impossibility in the second case too, God cannot wait eternity to create the universe at a moment.
Why are you so constrained to a belief that if there is a 'God' that it created time and matter?
God is the creator unless you have another meaning for God.

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attofishpi
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by attofishpi » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:07 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:59 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:07 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm
...but that is an impossibility since time either has a beginning or not. In first case one can ask how time comes into existence from nothing (remember that God is subjected to time therefore He cannot create time). We are dealing with an impossibility in the second case too, God cannot wait eternity to create the universe at a moment.
Why are you so constrained to a belief that if there is a 'God' that it created time and matter?
God is the creator unless you have another meaning for God.
The creator of what?
The entire universe or just our reality upon planet Earth?

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:12 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:07 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:59 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:07 pm


Why are you so constrained to a belief that if there is a 'God' that it created time and matter?
God is the creator unless you have another meaning for God.
The creator of what?
The entire universe or
By God I mean the creator of the universe.
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:07 pm
just our reality upon planet Earth?
What He can create?

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attofishpi
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by attofishpi » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:37 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:12 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:07 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:59 pm

God is the creator unless you have another meaning for God.
The creator of what?
The entire universe or
By God I mean the creator of the universe.
Where are you getting the idea that God created the universe?

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:42 pm

Well, the universe cannot be eternal therefore it has a beginning. This means that there is nothing before the beginning. Nothing however has no causal power. Therefore there must be a God who created the universe.

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attofishpi
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by attofishpi » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:46 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:42 pm
Well, the universe cannot be eternal therefore it has a beginning. This means that there is nothing before the beginning. Nothing however has no causal power. Therefore there must be a God who created the universe.
You are insisting that there is an intelligence that created the universe? It therefore follows, how did this intelligence form?

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:59 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:46 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:42 pm
Well, the universe cannot be eternal therefore it has a beginning. This means that there is nothing before the beginning. Nothing however has no causal power. Therefore there must be a God who created the universe.
You are insisting that there is an intelligence that created the universe? It therefore follows, how did this intelligence form?
I don't have an argument to show that God is intelligent. I didn't say so too.

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attofishpi
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by attofishpi » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:01 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:59 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:46 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:42 pm
Well, the universe cannot be eternal therefore it has a beginning. This means that there is nothing before the beginning. Nothing however has no causal power. Therefore there must be a God who created the universe.
You are insisting that there is an intelligence that created the universe? It therefore follows, how did this intelligence form?
I don't have an argument to show that God is intelligent. I didn't say so too.
Playing devils advocate? What's this then?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:59 pm
Therefore there must be a God who created the universe.
Surely something that CREATES something has INTELLIGENCE.

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:21 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:01 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:59 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:46 pm


You are insisting that there is an intelligence that created the universe? It therefore follows, how did this intelligence form?
I don't have an argument to show that God is intelligent. I didn't say so too.
Playing devils advocate? What's this then?
An anomaly, anomaly being the act of creation.
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:01 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:59 pm

Therefore there must be a God who created the universe.
Surely something that CREATES something has INTELLIGENCE.
Not necessary. Do you have any proof for your claim. I would be glad to hear it.

seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:47 pm

seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:57 am
If abstract labels sound silly when applied to a sentient and self-aware entity such as you, for example, as in - “bahman is love,” or “bahman is justice,” then why apply them to God?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:30 pm
I already discuss that God like us cannot be subject to time.
And I already suggested that any entity that is self-aware is subject to its own “relative” perspective of time.

Furthermore, your reply is another example of you sidestepping the actual question.

Re-read my question quoted above and then tell me why God - not being subject to time - has anything to do with you taking abstract concepts such as “love” and “justice” and calling them God?
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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:25 pm

seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:47 pm
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:57 am
If abstract labels sound silly when applied to a sentient and self-aware entity such as you, for example, as in - “bahman is love,” or “bahman is justice,” then why apply them to God?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:30 pm
I already discuss that God like us cannot be subject to time.
And I already suggested that any entity that is self-aware is subject to its own “relative” perspective of time.
There is a problem with being subject to time so called the origin. An entity cannot be eternal therefore it must have a beginning. This, having a beginning, is problematic in case of God.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:47 pm
Furthermore, your reply is another example of you sidestepping the actual question.

Re-read my question quoted above and then tell me why God - not being subject to time - has anything to do with you taking abstract concepts such as “love” and “justice” and calling them God?
_______
God cannot be two different things, love and justice, if He is not subjected to time unless you show that there is a relation between love and justice.

seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:41 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:42 pm
...the universe cannot be eternal therefore it has a beginning.
I agree with that.
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:42 pm
This means that there is nothing before the beginning.
No, bahman.

In no way does that mean there was “nothing” prior to the beginning of our universe. That is pure guesswork on your part.

Furthermore, you need to stop assuming that our tiny little speck** of reality represents the full embodiment of the “ALL-THAT-IS.”

**(Our universe is indeed a “speck” in both age and size when compared to eternity and infinity. See this post here - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14919&start=570#p391098)

(Continued in next post)
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