The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

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Greatest I am
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The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Greatest I am »

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

I find Christianity immoral for substitutionary atonement as well as many others of their moral tenets.

Without the blood sacrifice of Jesus, Christianity fails as a salvific religion.

We could thump all day with passages that both support blood sacrifice as well as quote the many passages against it as shown with both types of quotes in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

Recognizing that there are many contradictory passages in scriptures, let’s ignore them all and just look at the morality of substitutionary atonement.

Scriptures tell us that to perfect our wisdom, we must get out of the Christian theology. I think that those passages are asking us to confirm our thinking with analogies that do not include Christian dogma.

With that in mind, I offer an analogy for discussion.

Scriptures say we are all children of God.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended?

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Greatest I am wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:30 pm The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

I find Christianity immoral for substitutionary atonement as well as many others of their moral tenets.

Without the blood sacrifice of Jesus, Christianity fails as a salvific religion.

We could thump all day with passages that both support blood sacrifice as well as quote the many passages against it as shown with both types of quotes in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

Recognizing that there are many contradictory passages in scriptures, let’s ignore them all and just look at the morality of substitutionary atonement.

Scriptures tell us that to perfect our wisdom, we must get out of the Christian theology. I think that those passages are asking us to confirm our thinking with analogies that do not include Christian dogma.

With that in mind, I offer an analogy for discussion.

Scriptures say we are all children of God.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended?

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL
The cornerstone of all religions have an element of human sacrifice, even atheism and Nazism required human sacrifice. Is human sacrifice immoral?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

The 'sacrifice' re Christianity is more towards the soteriological aspects than the moral aspects. At least Christianity is not condoning actual self-sacrifice to be a suicide bomber like what Allah is doing in the Quran.

I believe the effectiveness of the moral model of Christianity was very relevant and optimal in relation to the time it emerged and is even to the present. However due to its rigidity, its shelf life will be expiring soon as humanity evolved into the future.

As from now, humanity need to establish a fool proof effective moral and ethical system to increase the average moral quotient of humanity.
DNA wise humans have an inherent moral faculty;

Infants has a Moral Faculty
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/

So the project is for humanity to expedite the progress of this inherent moral faculty within each human.
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Greatest I am »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:12 pm
The cornerstone of all religions have an element of human sacrifice, even atheism and Nazism required human sacrifice. Is human sacrifice immoral?
My religion, Gnostic Christianity, belies your first claim.

Yes the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty is immoral.

Regards
DL
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Greatest I am wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:22 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:12 pm
The cornerstone of all religions have an element of human sacrifice, even atheism and Nazism required human sacrifice. Is human sacrifice immoral?
My religion, Gnostic Christianity, belies your first claim.

Yes the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty is immoral.

Regards
DL
"Your" religion is strictly a sacrifice of the self to the self...human sacrifice is inevitable. We are all sacrificial creatures by nature.
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Greatest I am »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:33 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:22 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:12 pm
The cornerstone of all religions have an element of human sacrifice, even atheism and Nazism required human sacrifice. Is human sacrifice immoral?
My religion, Gnostic Christianity, belies your first claim.

Yes the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty is immoral.

Regards
DL
"Your" religion is strictly a sacrifice of the self to the self...human sacrifice is inevitable. We are all sacrificial creatures by nature.
A strange use of the term as sacrifice denotes a loss for one and a gain for another and sacrifice to the self is not that, but Ok.

Regards
DL
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Greatest I am wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:43 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:33 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:22 pm

My religion, Gnostic Christianity, belies your first claim.

Yes the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty is immoral.

Regards
DL
"Your" religion is strictly a sacrifice of the self to the self...human sacrifice is inevitable. We are all sacrificial creatures by nature.
A strange use of the term as sacrifice denotes a loss for one and a gain for another and sacrifice to the self is not that, but Ok.

Regards
DL
There are multiple selves in accords to the nature of time.
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Greatest I am »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:49 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:43 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:33 pm
"Your" religion is strictly a sacrifice of the self to the self...human sacrifice is inevitable. We are all sacrificial creatures by nature.
A strange use of the term as sacrifice denotes a loss for one and a gain for another and sacrifice to the self is not that, but Ok.

Regards
DL
There are multiple selves in accords to the nature of time.
Sure. That is one of those bits of useless information as the self that is right now is the only important one.

Regards
DL
Belinda
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Belinda »

The magical religious ritual of killing humans to pacify the gods or a god was recorded in the story of Abraham and Isaac. That story told how the Judaic God changed the custom of propitiating gods by magic. Magic was used in religions as a way to directly cause the gods to be merciful. The Judaic God substituted law and justice and so did not require magic rituals.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, may be taken crudely as a human sacrifice for propitiating God the Father. Or alternatively the sacrifice of Jesus Christ may be understood humanistically as the first and foremost example of the hard choice it is to be a good man, to take up one's cross.
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Greatest I am »

Belinda wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:29 pm The magical religious ritual of killing humans to pacify the gods or a god was recorded in the story of Abraham and Isaac. That story told how the Judaic God changed the custom of propitiating gods by magic. Magic was used in religions as a way to directly cause the gods to be merciful. The Judaic God substituted law and justice and so did not require magic rituals.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, may be taken crudely as a human sacrifice for propitiating God the Father. Or alternatively the sacrifice of Jesus Christ may be understood humanistically as the first and foremost example of the hard choice it is to be a good man, to take up one's cross.
Thoughtful.

Your last may be why so many Christians have decided to ride a scapegoat Jesus instead of doing as he asked and pickm up their burden and follow him.

Regards
DL
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Re: The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Greatest I am wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:22 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:49 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:43 pm

A strange use of the term as sacrifice denotes a loss for one and a gain for another and sacrifice to the self is not that, but Ok.

Regards
DL
There are multiple selves in accords to the nature of time.
Sure. That is one of those bits of useless information as the self that is right now is the only important one.

Regards
DL
"Now" expands through the confines of memory. People sacrifice themselves to visions of themselves all the time.
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