Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:31 am

Here is an interesting discussion re Faith from Matt Dillahunty with a theist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcB_g_ElIdQ

When questioned the theist will always try to shift but note how Matt kept him on the rational path.

The argument of whether God exists always end up on the basis of faith, i.e. belief without proofs nor justified reason.

However in this case, Matt and the theists are not digging further into the proximate root causes, i.e. the psychological factors in the theists' brain/mind.

I am the only one who is relating theism to the psychological in here, but many are doing so out there.

Reflex
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Reflex » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:00 am

So....you like being counted as among the pathetic losers "out there." Figures. :roll:

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:04 am

Reflex wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:00 am
So....you like being counted as among the pathetic losers "out there." Figures. :roll:
Note the fruits of your theist-associates;

Image

plus the whole loads of other terrible evil and violent acts committed by other theists.

Hugh Nose
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:28 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Hugh Nose » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:14 pm

Some help here, please! What is meant here by "faith-based"? What is meant by "rational"?

I just want some clarification so I don't start off on an unrelated tangent.

cheers,
Hugh

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:06 am

Hugh Nose wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:14 pm
Some help here, please! What is meant here by "faith-based"? What is meant by "rational"?

I just want some clarification so I don't start off on an unrelated tangent.

cheers,
Hugh
Per dictionary and similar in philosophy.
  • Faith:
    1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
    2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.


    Rational:
    1. based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

Hugh Nose
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:28 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Hugh Nose » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:15 am

Per dictionary and similar in philosophy.
Faith:
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.


Rational:
1. based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
Further clarification, please…

About “faith”-- I just learned via a search using Google that Doha is the Capital of Qatar. So, my current belief that Doha is the Capital of Qatar is based on my confidence, my trust, in Google.

So, is my belief that Doha is the Capital of Qatar faith-based, and hence, not rational?

About “rational”-- The proof for the existence of God that was offered in the thread entitled, “If the existence of God cannot be proved, why not?” is in accordance with reason or logic.

So, is it rational? Seems to be in accord with the definition of “rational” offered here.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:00 am

Hugh Nose wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:15 am
Per dictionary and similar in philosophy.
Faith:
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.


Rational:
1. based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
Further clarification, please…

About “faith”-- I just learned via a search using Google that Doha is the Capital of Qatar. So, my current belief that Doha is the Capital of Qatar is based on my confidence, my trust, in Google.

So, is my belief that Doha is the Capital of Qatar faith-based, and hence, not rational?
To be more serious, there are no absolute 100% faith nor absolute 100% rationality.
Knowledge is based on a Rational% + Faith%.
Thus when I assert 'rational' at it utmost it meant 99%Rational + 1%Faith.
Faith-based would meant 99%Faith + 1%Rational.

Assuming you do not have any prior knowledge of capital city of countries, and if you rely solely on what is presented from google and insist on faith that is a fact, then that would be an irrational approach to your answer.

To be more rational, you would need more rational justifications and verification from the proper authority.

The most rational approach [99% rationality] is to verify with what is published in the actual official records of the Qatar governments based on visits to the country and its government offices to confirm Doha is the Capital of Qatar.

Generally we know the Capital of Qatar is Doha because it is mentioned everywhere and agreed by many people. To be more sure you can verify Doha is the capital by checking with the official government site.
https://portal.www.gov.qa/wps/portal/about-qatar
Such an approach will give us a 90% Rational and 10% Faith because you we never know, the site could be a fake one.
The above degree of rationality can be increased based on one knowledge from extensive reading and informed from hundreds and thousands of sources that reported Doha is the capital of Doha.

In the case of Doha as Capital City of Qatar, one can visit the city of Doha and confirm it with the official authority plus relying on all other secondary evidences.

In the case of the claim 'God exists' no one has been able to produce direct evidence to justify God exists as real.
Note my argument;

God is an Impossibility
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704

Since there is no proof and God is an impossibility, the only recourse for a theist is to believe God as real based on faith [99%] and 1% rationality.
In this case, a faith-based belief that God exists is not rational.
About “rational”-- The proof for the existence of God that was offered in the thread entitled, “If the existence of God cannot be proved, why not?” is in accordance with reason or logic.

So, is it rational? Seems to be in accord with the definition of “rational” offered here.
There are many who claimed they can prove God exists by reason.
One can definitely think of God, but God cannot be rationally proven. At best theists are relying on pseudo-rationality, i.e. attempted rationality but fraught with logical fallacies.

Such claims are not rational but still depend on faith.
The consolation is this could be 90% faith & 10% reason, thus a nett-faith based belief.

Btw, I have offered a new perspective to the idea of God, i.e. it emerged due to the terrible existential psychology within humans. The idea of God provides instant relief to the terrible existential sufferings. This is why theists are so aggressive [some will even kill] to defend their achieved feeling of security.

User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by attofishpi » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:37 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:31 am
The argument of whether God exists always end up on the basis of faith, i.e. belief without proofs nor justified reason.
I have knowledge of its existence - not faith.

Thread spamming again?

It just proves how inept you are at a coherent rational defense of atheism.

You bailed out on our discussion regarding 'ITS' existence due to entropy, because you lack the credentials required of a rational debate (you lost):-

God\'God's existence is probable
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25753&p=389106#p389106

What is your next thread spam going to be called I wonder? You are pathetic.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:49 am

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:37 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:31 am
The argument of whether God exists always end up on the basis of faith, i.e. belief without proofs nor justified reason.
I have knowledge of its existence - not faith.
Knowledge??
For any proposition to be knowledge, it has to be a justified true belief, i.e. objective.
What you have is merely a personal subjective view not justified true belief.

It is like a schizo believing Gnomes exist because he spoke to the Gnomes in his garden, thus he claimed he has knowledge of their existence.
Thread spamming again?

It just proves how inept you are at a coherent rational defense of atheism.

You bailed out on our discussion regarding 'ITS' existence due to entropy, because you lack the credentials required of a rational debate (you lost):-

God\'God's existence is probable
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25753&p=389106#p389106

What is your next thread spam going to be called I wonder? You are pathetic.
Is the above a rational philosophy discussion?
The problem with most theists is they tend to get very emotional with their theistic views and I have argued the basis of theism is purely existential psychology. As evident, some theists will even kill those who had wounded their theistic feelings.

User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by attofishpi » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:29 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:49 am
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:37 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:31 am
The argument of whether God exists always end up on the basis of faith, i.e. belief without proofs nor justified reason.
I have knowledge of its existence - not faith.
Knowledge??
For any proposition to be knowledge, it has to be a justified true belief, i.e. objective.
What you have is merely a personal subjective view not justified true belief.
Oh, you have been walking in my shoes for the past 20 years have you?
I have direct objective (yes personal) proof of God\'God's existence - with over 20 yrs of experience of 'its' existence.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:49 am
It is like a schizo believing Gnomes exist because he spoke to the Gnomes in his garden, thus he claimed he has knowledge of their existence.
Garden gnomes do exist, they just don't talk because they are moulded plaster.
What a typical simple minded atheist you are.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:49 am
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:37 am
Thread spamming again?

It just proves how inept you are at a coherent rational defense of atheism.

You bailed out on our discussion regarding 'ITS' existence due to entropy, because you lack the credentials required of a rational debate (you lost):-

God\'God's existence is probable
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25753&p=389106#p389106

What is your next thread spam going to be called I wonder? You are pathetic.
Is the above a rational philosophy discussion?
The problem with most theists is they tend to get very emotional with their theistic views and I have argued the basis of theism is purely existential psychology. As evident, some theists will even kill those who had wounded their theistic feelings.
Stereotyping theists as emotional and psychotically failed, and that's your only counter argument! Ridiculous.

Please don't continue to waste my time..

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:52 am

attofishpi wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:29 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:49 am
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:37 am

I have knowledge of its existence - not faith.
Knowledge??
For any proposition to be knowledge, it has to be a justified true belief, i.e. objective.
What you have is merely a personal subjective view not justified true belief.
Oh, you have been walking in my shoes for the past 20 years have you?
I have direct objective (yes personal) proof of God\'God's existence - with over 20 yrs of experience of 'its' existence.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:49 am
It is like a schizo believing Gnomes exist because he spoke to the Gnomes in his garden, thus he claimed he has knowledge of their existence.
Garden gnomes do exist, they just don't talk because they are moulded plaster.
What a typical simple minded atheist you are.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:49 am
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:37 am
Thread spamming again?

It just proves how inept you are at a coherent rational defense of atheism.

You bailed out on our discussion regarding 'ITS' existence due to entropy, because you lack the credentials required of a rational debate (you lost):-

God\'God's existence is probable
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25753&p=389106#p389106

What is your next thread spam going to be called I wonder? You are pathetic.
Is the above a rational philosophy discussion?
The problem with most theists is they tend to get very emotional with their theistic views and I have argued the basis of theism is purely existential psychology. As evident, some theists will even kill those who had wounded their theistic feelings.
Stereotyping theists as emotional and psychotically failed, and that's your only counter argument! Ridiculous.

Please don't continue to waste my time..
I did not invite you to respond to my post.
Btw, it was you who intercepted my reply to 'Hugh Nose'
viewtopic.php?p=389398#p389398

I have proven 'God is an impossibility to be real' and argued the only real reason how the idea of God came about is due to the inherent existential psychology.

User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by attofishpi » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:08 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:52 am
I have proven 'God is an impossibility to be real' and argued the only real reason how the idea of God came about is due to the inherent existential psychology.
Hahaha really? You really think you have proven God is an impossibility to be real?

What, the dude with the grey beard floating in space that willed everything into existence because of his words?

A muppet could prove that, well then muppet, remain confident in you ill founded belief in yourself.

Hugh Nose
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:28 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Hugh Nose » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:16 am

To be more serious, there are no absolute 100% faith nor absolute 100% rationality.
Knowledge is based on a Rational% + Faith%.
Thus when I assert 'rational' at it utmost it meant 99%Rational + 1%Faith.
Faith-based would meant 99%Faith + 1%Rational.

Assuming you do not have any prior knowledge of capital city of countries, and if you rely solely on what is presented from google and insist on faith that is a fact, then that would be an irrational approach to your answer.

To be more rational, you would need more rational justifications and verification from the proper authority.

The most rational approach [99% rationality] is to verify with what is published in the actual official records of the Qatar governments based on visits to the country and its government offices to confirm Doha is the Capital of Qatar.

Generally we know the Capital of Qatar is Doha because it is mentioned everywhere and agreed by many people. To be more sure you can verify Doha is the capital by checking with the official government site.
https://portal.www.gov.qa/wps/portal/about-qatar
Such an approach will give us a 90% Rational and 10% Faith because you we never know, the site could be a fake one.
The above degree of rationality can be increased based on one knowledge from extensive reading and informed from hundreds and thousands of sources that reported Doha is the capital of Doha.

In the case of Doha as Capital City of Qatar, one can visit the city of Doha and confirm it with the official authority plus relying on all other secondary evidences.
If what you say is accurate, then according to you it would be irrational for me to believe any of what you say. Right?

cheers,

Hugh

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:51 am

Hugh Nose wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:16 am
To be more serious, there are no absolute 100% faith nor absolute 100% rationality.
Knowledge is based on a Rational% + Faith%.
Thus when I assert 'rational' at it utmost it meant 99%Rational + 1%Faith.
Faith-based would meant 99%Faith + 1%Rational.

Assuming you do not have any prior knowledge of capital city of countries, and if you rely solely on what is presented from google and insist on faith that is a fact, then that would be an irrational approach to your answer.

To be more rational, you would need more rational justifications and verification from the proper authority.

The most rational approach [99% rationality] is to verify with what is published in the actual official records of the Qatar governments based on visits to the country and its government offices to confirm Doha is the Capital of Qatar.

Generally we know the Capital of Qatar is Doha because it is mentioned everywhere and agreed by many people. To be more sure you can verify Doha is the capital by checking with the official government site.
https://portal.www.gov.qa/wps/portal/about-qatar
Such an approach will give us a 90% Rational and 10% Faith because you we never know, the site could be a fake one.
The above degree of rationality can be increased based on one knowledge from extensive reading and informed from hundreds and thousands of sources that reported Doha is the capital of Doha.

In the case of Doha as Capital City of Qatar, one can visit the city of Doha and confirm it with the official authority plus relying on all other secondary evidences.
If what you say is accurate, then according to you it would be irrational for me to believe any of what you say. Right?

cheers,

Hugh
That is possible depending on the context.
If you simply agree with me because you think my views are charismatic, then that is irrational.
If you agree with me because you it is logical and in accordance to reported facts, then there is some degree of rationality say 50%Rational 50% faith.
To increase your agreement as reasonably say 90%-rational you will have to do more research, verify and confirm what I have stated is justified true belief.

Example,
If you simply agree with my assertion 'Babies are born with a moral faculty' without any basis and prior knowledge except you feel it is true, then that would be irrational, i.e. based on 90% faith.
To increase the degree of rationality of your agreement with my assertion, you will need to find yourself or get from me more supporting evidences to justify the truth of the statement.

Note;
Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom: It is something we are all born with. At birth, babies are endowed with compassion, with empathy, with the beginnings of a sense of fairness.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/
There are tons of research findings done by others supporting the stated hypothesis.

To be more certain you can even do the research and experiments yourself to test and confirm the findings.

As for "God exists,"
that is an irrational conclusion.
What sorts of tests and verifications can I do to confirm God is real?

On the other hand, there are loads of really mad people, those with brain damage, those who take drugs/hallucinogens and other non-divine factors who claimed to have direct experiences of God.
Note this ONE example among many others' These are manifested from psychological basis for the idea of God.

Because no humans has ever proven God is real convincingly since the idea of God emerged, thus it is more likely for those who claim God exists on the religious and spiritual path to be influenced by psychological than a pre-existing real God.

There are many non-theistic spiritual paths that has dealt with the underlying psychological issues of God from the psychological basis, e.g. Buddhism.

Hugh Nose
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:28 am

Re: Faith-Based Beliefs are not Rational

Post by Hugh Nose » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:08 pm

To be more serious, there are no absolute 100% faith nor absolute 100% rationality.
I am not sure what this means. If it means, among other things, something such as nothing is [epistemically] certain, then it is just plain false.
Knowledge is based on a Rational% + Faith%.
Thus when I assert 'rational' at it utmost it meant 99%Rational + 1%Faith.
Faith-based would meant 99%Faith + 1%Rational.
As far as I can tell, the ‘percentages’ you have assigned here are merely figments of your creation, at best. One could not even begin to make an assessment without further elucidation by you as to what the claim means.
Assuming you do not have any prior knowledge of capital city of countries, and if you rely solely on what is presented from google and insist on faith that is a fact, then that would be an irrational approach to your answer.
To be more rational, you would need more rational justifications and verification from the proper authority.
But if I can’t rely on Google for information about the Capital of Qatar [my claim about finding the information via Google should not be taken to imply that I think everything one finds on Google is to be given the same weight], what other source could I rely and how would I know that it, whatever it is, is more reliable than Google. How would I know that any source that I consult on the web, for example, didn’t have Google as its source. For example, when you say,
The most rational approach [99% rationality] is to verify with what is published in the actual official records of the Qatar governments based on visits to the country and its government offices to confirm Doha is the Capital of Qatar.
,

how will I know [how do you know?] that the source that displays this, is accurate?

You say,
Generally we know the Capital of Qatar is Doha because it is mentioned everywhere and agreed by many people.


Have these “everywheres” and these “many people” gotten there information from google, or from some other source? If from other sources, is consulting these sources rational, or does one just accept them ‘on faith’, according to you?
To be more sure you can verify Doha is the capital by checking with the official government site.
https://portal.www.gov.qa/wps/portal/about-qatar


Is it rational, by your reckoning to accept this source as an authoritative on? Do you know that the author[s] of the site didn’t use google as a source for the information about the Capital of Qatar?
Such an approach will give us a 90% Rational and 10% Faith because you we never know, the site could be a fake one. [my emphasis- Hugh]


The irony here, is thick!

No need to continue with more of the same observations.

You seem to be advocating for an epistemic situation that is an impossible one, and hence, making an incoherent “recommendation”. It looks like you are in the thrall of a notion of “justified, true belief” and “evidence” requirement on “justification”, that leads to skepticism, or some sort of kind of coherence theory or some kind of foundationalist theory, none of which hold up under scrutiny.

Cheers,

Hugh

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests