Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2684
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:50 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:40 am
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:16 am
What I wrote about your argument remains entirely true. It is a weak argument from a tenuous analogy between a lifeform that has two species as part of its lifecycle and requires the murder of one host to breed, with a belief system that does not share those among many other properties. It is therefore garbage.

I'm sorry for you if you think that the purpose of philosophy is for other people to accept garbage arguments from you and just agree with them. Arguments from analogy can be perfectly useful. Yours cannot because it is a badly overworked analogy. You plagiarised Dan Dennett's party trick and passed it off both as your own product and as serious argument. It is neither.
Philosophically at least I have done my part, i.e. stirred you to ask more questions.
But unfortunately your views above are merely a straw man and unsubstantiated accusations.
How can it be a straw man? Your argument is from analogy, exactly as I described. It is, also as fairly described, a tenuous analogy that compares a biological lifeform which follows one precise set of behaviours to a wide and diverse range of human beliefs and behaviours, which guarantees that it is weak even for that form of argument. These are simple enough facts, you should be able to get them. Matters of self evident observation cannot be unsubstantiated accusation. Philosophically you have done nothing here but present an argument with faulty structure and insist it is good because you prefer to think of it that way. You didn't even learn anything from your mistakes which effectively guarantees a repeat performance.

This has been a bit of a waste of my time, but that's my fault as I was well aware of your capabilities before joining in. The next time you want to know why I can't be arsed to discuss you our obsession with islam, the additional effort that would require, and the obvious lack of payoff for it is the reason.
You banked your critique too much on the "zombie parasite" analogy which is merely a very crude clue to something more complex deeper.

The analogy is merely something crude to lead one towards the neural perspectives.
At present, most people think the real ultimate cause of Islamic terrorism is due to the foreign policy of USA. I am pointing the root cause is in the brain/mind of theists.

The real zombie parasites in the ants' brain activated and triggered compelled [subliminally] to act 'irrationally' to their fatality.
So the question from our analogy clue is what is going on in the theists' brain that compelled [subliminally] theists to cling to the irrational belief in the idea of God that lead to theistic-based evil and violent acts.

Note, the brain on average has 100 billions neurons where each has up to 10,000 synapses [biological connectors]. Just image the number of possible complex permutations and combinations within the brain. We need to track the effects of theists to the specific set of neurons and their connectivity.

The final answers is to find the specific connections and sets of neurons and synapses that are involved in compelling theists into an irrational beliefs.
This is why I bring in the
Human Genome Project - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genome_Project
The Human Connectome Project - http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/

There are at on of more elements and variable involved.
At present our knowledge is limited but I believe we are moving in the right direction.

When we have made significant advances in the The Human Connectome Project, we will be able to track more precisely why humans are theists and this can be tested, repeated and verified objectively. From the subtlest details, corrective actions [foolproof] can be taken.

The above are clues for further discussions.

I did not force you to respond to waste your time.
Your attitude and approach is too abrasive, I do not wish to discuss further with you on the above.

User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Kayla » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:17 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:17 pm

He wasn't doing it for them. He was gathering brownie points for himself. Shame they didn't eat him--alive, except that they aren't cannibals.
all lived around people like that all my life - in rural or semi-rural US south.

they - at least most of them - are motivated by "brownie points" at least to some extent - but their desire to save people from hellfire is also genuine (even if misplaced)

FlashDangerpants
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by FlashDangerpants » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:46 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am
You banked your critique too much on the "zombie parasite" analogy which is merely a very crude clue to something more complex deeper.
Are you confused about what an argument from analogy is? They all make exact claim. If you don't want it, stop incorporating the analogy and see if you can get the thing to still make any sense at all when you reduce your argument to what is left over.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am
At present, most people think the real ultimate cause of Islamic terrorism is due to the foreign policy of USA. I am pointing the root cause is in the brain/mind of theists.
Why only do that with Islamic terrorism? Why not do it for alt-right neo-fascism too? Do this same move with every form of pathological obsessive behaviour that's grounded in groupthink and you might plausibly be onto something. But doing it only to excercise your personal obsession with a single religion doesn't work very well.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am
The real zombie parasites in the ants' brain activated and triggered compelled [subliminally] to act 'irrationally' to their fatality.
So the question from our analogy clue is what is going on in the theists' brain that compelled [subliminally] theists to cling to the irrational belief in the idea of God that lead to theistic-based evil and violent acts.
You are still relying on your analogy here. You are supposed not to be doing that under your current set of claims.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am
Note, the brain on average has 100 billions neurons where each has up to 10,000 synapses [biological connectors]. Just image the number of possible complex permutations and combinations within the brain. We need to track the effects of theists to the specific set of neurons and their connectivity.
And the similar effects that Breitbart has had on you of course.

It is absurd that you would invoke the sheer complexity of the brain as support for an argument that requires it to be a very simple sort of machine that can be read like a clock face. The idea that a particular thought in one brain would be pattern recognisable with the same thought in some other brain is implausible. You have inserted a second undisclosed analogy without apparently noticing.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am
The final answers is to find the specific connections and sets of neurons and synapses that are involved in compelling theists into an irrational beliefs.
This is why I bring in the
Human Genome Project - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genome_Project
The Human Connectome Project - http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/
It's sad to see you bring that excellent project into your paranoid sci-fi fantasy.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am
There are at on of more elements and variable involved.
At present our knowledge is limited but I believe we are moving in the right direction.

When we have made significant advances in the The Human Connectome Project, we will be able to track more precisely why humans are theists and this can be tested, repeated and verified objectively. From the subtlest details, corrective actions [foolproof] can be taken.
That seems scientifically illiterate tbh. Neuroscience and genetics aren't my field, but I can safely say you would never get that drivel past anyone who is expert them.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am
I did not force you to respond to waste your time.
Your attitude and approach is too abrasive, I do not wish to discuss further with you on the above.
Then you can stop posting such inveterate rubbish. Or just take yourself off to one of the sites where your constant ranting about islam is considered normal and well balanced.

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Greta » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:05 pm

Kayla wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:17 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:17 pm

He wasn't doing it for them. He was gathering brownie points for himself. Shame they didn't eat him--alive, except that they aren't cannibals.
all lived around people like that all my life - in rural or semi-rural US south.
For a moment I thought you were talking about eating people alive. Seriously, many indigenous people believe that they will take on the characteristics of the animals they ate (having not heard of entropy) and I doubt they'd much want to emulate a person they must have thought to be rather stupid and weak to not read their obvious messages to stay away.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2684
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:50 am

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:46 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am
You banked your critique too much on the "zombie parasite" analogy which is merely a very crude clue to something more complex deeper.
Are you confused about what an argument from analogy is? They all make exact claim. If you don't want it, stop incorporating the analogy and see if you can get the thing to still make any sense at all when you reduce your argument to what is left over.
Your point is SO stupid in that you do not understand what is the purpose of an analogy and the argument from analogy.

analogy: a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. [Google Dictionary]
It [argument from analogy] is also implicit in much of science; for instance, experiments on laboratory rats typically proceed on the basis that some physiological similarities between rats and humans entails some further similarity (e.g. possible reactions to a drug).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_analogy
You are stupid and ignorant of the above?

The only issue with argument from analogy is the use of a false analology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_ ... se_analogy

I did not use the analogy as a direct premise of my argument but only as a clue and side information [as I had explained earlier] pointing further investigation.
That seems scientifically illiterate tbh. Neuroscience and genetics aren't my field, but I can safely say you would never get that drivel past anyone who is expert them.
I am not an expert but have done extensively readings for a long time and following up with the advances in the neuroscience [in general].
It is pathetic you have not made it a point to gather more knowledge of what is going on inside your skull; from how you are posting I believe it is full of shit.

User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Kayla » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:54 pm

Greta wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:05 pm
For a moment I thought you were talking about eating people alive.
lol i guess the way I wrote it was ambiguous. But whatever hardcore Republicans' faults are, cannibalism is not one of them.

there has been some discussion of this case at the local diner. a common view is "right idea, poor execution". A lot of people believe that there are plenty of unsaved back home to worry about Andaman islands

heck there have been efforts to preach to the unsaved right at the diner kinda annoying that. the waitress scandalized many of those present by suggesting that Christ was probably one of the Buddhas. (yes we have a buddhist waitress in a diner in the deep South, deep south is more diverse than many people give it credit for)

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Greta » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:30 pm

Kayla wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:54 pm
Greta wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:05 pm
For a moment I thought you were talking about eating people alive.
lol i guess the way I wrote it was ambiguous. But whatever hardcore Republicans' faults are, cannibalism is not one of them.

there has been some discussion of this case at the local diner. a common view is "right idea, poor execution". A lot of people believe that there are plenty of unsaved back home to worry about Andaman islands

heck there have been efforts to preach to the unsaved right at the diner kinda annoying that. the waitress scandalized many of those present by suggesting that Christ was probably one of the Buddhas. (yes we have a buddhist waitress in a diner in the deep South, deep south is more diverse than many people give it credit for)
Hehe Buddhists have been saying that for a very long time. Some Christians can deal with it but the divine exclusivists can't handle it - my way or the highway!

The sad aspect is that the diner people's views suggest that the Sentinelese will never be left in peace and eventually they and their culture will be annihilated by mindless missionaries spreading their pathogens.

FlashDangerpants
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by FlashDangerpants » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:34 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:50 am
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:46 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:24 am
You banked your critique too much on the "zombie parasite" analogy which is merely a very crude clue to something more complex deeper.
Are you confused about what an argument from analogy is? They all make exact claim. If you don't want it, stop incorporating the analogy and see if you can get the thing to still make any sense at all when you reduce your argument to what is left over.
Your point is SO stupid in that you do not understand what is the purpose of an analogy and the argument from analogy.

analogy: a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. [Google Dictionary]
As you are about to introduce a link from wikipedia about such arguments, so we might as well include the definition there of an argument from analogy. We can safely ignore the definition of analogy without "argument" attached as it is a waste of time.
You chose this link wrote:Argument from analogy is a special type of inductive argument, whereby perceived similarities are used as a basis to infer some further similarity that has yet to be observed.
That, as I explained twice already, is exactly what your argument is for, and exactly what they are all for. Your special pleading is noted, and rejected. Yor decision to follow this argument strategy even though it required you to obscure a definition that clearly supports my case is weird.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:50 am
It [argument from analogy] is also implicit in much of science; for instance, experiments on laboratory rats typically proceed on the basis that some physiological similarities between rats and humans entails some further similarity (e.g. possible reactions to a drug).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_analogy
You are stupid and ignorant of the above?

The only issue with argument from analogy is the use of a false analology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_ ... se_analogy
Oh dear. Look how abrasive you have become. I wonder if you were bullshitting about that as an excuse to exit your own thread.

Look back at your wikipedia link, look up a bit, see the part about counteranalogy? I already pointed out a simple counteranalogy. If you argument is true then your own rabbid islamaphobia is also a parasite etc.

So there is more than one problem for such arguments, but you have two right away. One is that your analogy is false for reasons I already gave you, and the other is that you only want it to support one analogous behaviour when that makes no possible sense.

The science bit you quoted there was a tactically inept choice. If you are trying to argue that your thing is science and not an argument from analogy, you have stupidly chosen instead to argue that science is argued from analogy. If you are trying to show how such analogies can be rigorous, all you are doing is highlighting the huge imbalance between what they do and what you do.

Medical science often tests drugs for humans on other animals, inded there is an analogy in that, it is the analogy that cells in a pig's gut behave alike to those same cells in a human gut. The result of the experiments on the pigs is not taken as by analogy to be an experiment on humans though, that other experiement awaits. Your analogy crosses a huge number of boundaries that this one does not. You should be smart enough to see that, and really you shouldn't be inviting this observation, given your tactical position.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:50 am
I did not use the analogy as a direct premise of my argument but only as a clue and side information [as I had explained earlier] pointing further investigation.
That seems scientifically illiterate tbh. Neuroscience and genetics aren't my field, but I can safely say you would never get that drivel past anyone who is expert them.
I am not an expert but have done extensively readings for a long time and following up with the advances in the neuroscience [in general].
It is pathetic you have not made it a point to gather more knowledge of what is going on inside your skull; from how you are posting I believe it is full of shit.
Neither of has talent or qualification for this sort of research. I have opted to leave it to those who do. You have opted to fake knowledge in pursuit of your obsessive vendetta. My choice is much better than yours.

User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Kayla » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:48 pm

Greta wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:30 pm
The sad aspect is that the diner people's views suggest that the Sentinelese will never be left in peace and eventually they and their culture will be annihilated by mindless missionaries spreading their pathogens.
theologically the diner crowd leans towards predestinationism.

i suggested that given that the very act of trying to bring the gospel to the Sentinelese is likely to kill them, that is a sign that they were not in any case predestined for salvation, so there is no point

apparently i set of a debate that is still going on

personally i am a predestinationist but I think everyone is predestined to salvation (after all the bible says that God wants everyone to be saved - it is absurd that an omnipotent God would not get what he wants) - but that is very much a minority view in my area

(Origen wrote that even Satan and Hitler will eventually be saved)

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 4975
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:30 pm

Kayla wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:48 pm
Greta wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:30 pm
The sad aspect is that the diner people's views suggest that the Sentinelese will never be left in peace and eventually they and their culture will be annihilated by mindless missionaries spreading their pathogens.
theologically the diner crowd leans towards predestinationism.

i suggested that given that the very act of trying to bring the gospel to the Sentinelese is likely to kill them, that is a sign that they were not in any case predestined for salvation, so there is no point

apparently i set of a debate that is still going on

personally i am a predestinationist but I think everyone is predestined to salvation (after all the bible says that God wants everyone to be saved - it is absurd that an omnipotent God would not get what he wants) - but that is very much a minority view in my area

(Origen wrote that even Satan and Hitler will eventually be saved)
I am not sure predestination or fate contradicts free will (when observing the dualism of predestination and free will in religious systems) when all rational faculties as extensions of God effectively exist as some form of good in themselves and manifest various grades of free will (divine will, as only divinity is truly free) but free will none the less. Freedom and divinity cannot be seperated in these respects.

seeds
Posts: 831
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by seeds » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:57 pm

_______

As I have mentioned elsewhere, there is an unavoidable and extremely tragic irony in trying to convert isolated tribes of humans to Christianity.

Is it not logical to assume that the Christian God would surely be forgiving of anyone who never heard the preaching of the “gospel” and thus grant them entrance into heaven?

However, as soon as a missionary introduces the tribe to the teachings of the Bible and the members are unreceptive of the information, then from that moment they are doomed to an eternity of torture in hell because they “heard the gospel” and rejected it.
_______
Last edited by seeds on Thu May 16, 2019 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Greta » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:39 pm

Kayla wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:48 pm
Greta wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:30 pm
The sad aspect is that the diner people's views suggest that the Sentinelese will never be left in peace and eventually they and their culture will be annihilated by mindless missionaries spreading their pathogens.
theologically the diner crowd leans towards predestinationism.

i suggested that given that the very act of trying to bring the gospel to the Sentinelese is likely to kill them, that is a sign that they were not in any case predestined for salvation, so there is no point

apparently i set of a debate that is still going on

personally i am a predestinationist but I think everyone is predestined to salvation (after all the bible says that God wants everyone to be saved - it is absurd that an omnipotent God would not get what he wants) - but that is very much a minority view in my area

(Origen wrote that even Satan and Hitler will eventually be saved)
It seems to me that the Sentinelese only need saving from missionaries and others trying to interfere with them.

Frank N Stein
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Frank N Stein » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:48 pm

Greta wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:39 pm
Kayla wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:48 pm
Greta wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:30 pm
The sad aspect is that the diner people's views suggest that the Sentinelese will never be left in peace and eventually they and their culture will be annihilated by mindless missionaries spreading their pathogens.
theologically the diner crowd leans towards predestinationism.

i suggested that given that the very act of trying to bring the gospel to the Sentinelese is likely to kill them, that is a sign that they were not in any case predestined for salvation, so there is no point

apparently i set of a debate that is still going on

personally i am a predestinationist but I think everyone is predestined to salvation (after all the bible says that God wants everyone to be saved - it is absurd that an omnipotent God would not get what he wants) - but that is very much a minority view in my area

(Origen wrote that even Satan and Hitler will eventually be saved)
It seems to me that the Sentinelese only need saving from missionaries and others trying to interfere with them.
Exactly. Next we will have do-gooders going in armed with polio vaccines etc.

Age
Posts: 3288
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Age » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:17 am

Frank N Stein wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:48 pm
Greta wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:39 pm
Kayla wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:48 pm


theologically the diner crowd leans towards predestinationism.

i suggested that given that the very act of trying to bring the gospel to the Sentinelese is likely to kill them, that is a sign that they were not in any case predestined for salvation, so there is no point

apparently i set of a debate that is still going on

personally i am a predestinationist but I think everyone is predestined to salvation (after all the bible says that God wants everyone to be saved - it is absurd that an omnipotent God would not get what he wants) - but that is very much a minority view in my area

(Origen wrote that even Satan and Hitler will eventually be saved)
It seems to me that the Sentinelese only need saving from missionaries and others trying to interfere with them.
Exactly. Next we will have do-gooders going in armed with polio vaccines etc.
This is just another crystal clear example of the only ones that human beings need to be saved from, is themselves.

User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Missionary Killed on Remote Island: Discuss?

Post by Kayla » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:47 pm

seeds wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:57 pm
Is it not logical to assume that the Christian God would surely be forgiving of anyone who never heard the preaching of the “gospel” and thus grant them entrance into heaven?
logical perhaps but that is not the way this was often understood

the missionaries considered their mission so urgent precisely because they thought not being exposed to the gospel at all guaranteed you were going to hell

most christians today recognize how insane that view is but cannot figure out a coherent alternative - and continue to reject universalism even though the bible is very clear on that

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: nothing and 4 guests