Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

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TimeSeeker
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by TimeSeeker »

You are re-inventing the wheel. In 2018 we call this approach “systems theory”/“systems thinking”. The problem-solving wisdom is the same, but the language is more accessible to the present-day population.

Plus it includes new and even more useful tools/techniques (from all cultures and corners of society) we have acquired since the Buddha departed.

Whether one uses this tool for analysing self (introspection) or an external system is but a matter of preference.
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HexHammer
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by HexHammer »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:27 amThere is a big difference between the ideology-proper and what some perverted Buddhists are doing.
Agree there has been abuses by Buddhists but they did not abuse in the name of Buddha nor Buddhism.

Have you come across any Buddhist shouting 'Buddha-u-Akbar' or quoting any verses from the Buddhist sutra when they commit violence or to justify their evil acts?
No, you have no idea!
It start with "you must distance yourself from your family" then you sever ties with them so they can't protect you from sexual predators in the temple, so they sleep, eat and live in the temple where sexual predators roam, already there you lay the foundation of ruin to a society if all were to follow buddhism strictly!

You must distance yourself from material goods, already there it's utterly devastating again, if there are no greedy materialistic people, you can't generate tax, no one would have money to buy, or sell goods, no one would want to be rich and employ workers, thus you can't have an industry inventing material goods for consumers.

Buddhism pure idiocy which is why Buddha himself predicted that 5000 years after his death his teachings would be forgotten!
TimeSeeker
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by TimeSeeker »

As with all ideologies. Take the good - leave the bad. Synthesise something better and more useful.

There are no authorities that are not invented. So there are no gurus.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:12 am You are re-inventing the wheel. In 2018 we call this approach “systems theory”/“systems thinking”. The problem-solving wisdom is the same, but the language is more accessible to the present-day population.

Plus it includes new and even more useful tools/techniques (from all cultures and corners of society) we have acquired since the Buddha departed.

Whether one uses this tool for analysing self (introspection) or an external system is but a matter of preference.
My point is the following;

Humans have been solving problems for ages and there are many successes.
Those who have been successful follow certain principles of problem of solving techniques but they were not made explicit.

It is claimed the first explicit problem solving techniques were written down 2600+ BCE ago.
The first recorded examples of medical diagnosis are found in the writings of Imhotep (2630–2611 BC) in ancient Egypt (the Edwin Smith Papyrus).[2] A Babylonian medical textbook, the Diagnostic Handbook written by Esagil-kin-apli (fl.1069–1046 BC), introduced the use of empiricism, logic and rationality in the diagnosis of an illness or disease.[3] Traditional Chinese Medicine, as described in the Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon or Huangdi Neijing, specified four diagnostic methods: inspection, auscultation-olfaction, interrogation, and palpation.[4] Hippocrates was known to make diagnoses by tasting his patients' urine and smelling their sweat.
-wiki
However Buddhism is the first religion and perhaps the only religion that introduce an explicit Problem Solving Technique specifically in the Four Noble Truth which is the main core principle of Buddhism.

If you will note, the Abrahamic religion approach is something like this;
  • God to believers: Shut the fcuk up and just obey my commands or else I will burnt you in Hell.
Buddhism on the other hand provide believers the Problem Solving Technique so that one can resolve one's own spiritual and existential issues.

Thus my point is, in comparison to all the religions and spiritualities, Buddhism is very efficient and know its stuff in relation to spirituality.

The generic Problem Solving Technique is not specifically System Theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

Problem Solving Techniques may be a tool used within a large system or
some of the specific areas of problem solving technique [root cause analysis] may use the system approach.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:35 am Humans have been solving problems for ages and there are many successes.
Those who have been successful follow certain principles of problem of solving techniques but they were not made explicit.

It is claimed the first explicit problem solving techniques were written down 2600+ BCE ago.
And all effective problem-solving techniques are encoded in our present-day body of knowledge. That which works - remains. That which didn't - has been discarded.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:35 am Thus my point is, in comparison to all the religions and spiritualities, Buddhism is very efficient and know its stuff in relation to spirituality.

The generic Problem Solving Technique is not specifically System Theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

Problem Solving Techniques may be a tool used within a large system or
some of the specific areas of problem solving technique [root cause analysis] may use the system approach.
This is special pleading. The problem, however is (as you point out) to first define the problem. And so you have defined the problem as "spirituality".

Except that - everything is a system. Even your own "mind/spirit". And so "general systems thinking" is a generally useful tool ;)

If you pay close attention to your mind and apply the scientific method - you will notice the patterns and hypotheses to test. How you respond to external stimuli (senses) and internal stimuli (emotions/feelings). How your mood is affected by your environment and your thoughts. How music affects your emotional state. How 'insecurity' (fear) is actually epistemic uncertainty signalling to your conscious mind that you are missing information.

I've used the exact same approach to real-world problem solving/applied sciences as I have used to develop emotional (spiritual?) intelligence. There is no difference. Because what systems thinking is (first and foremost) is an effective method for LEARNING things. About any system. Even yourself.

And this is coming from somebody who went the Christianity->Hinduism->Spirituality->Buddhism->Pantheism->Atheism->Agnosticism->Christian morality route in life.

I recognise all those teachings in Systems thinking :) Just keep asking 'How and why?'

Of course - i am only saying this to save you time/effort. The journey is part of life I guess - I am only telling you what the destination looks like.
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HexHammer
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by HexHammer »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:35 amBuddhism is the first religion and perhaps the only religion that introduce an explicit Problem Solving Technique specifically in the Four Noble Truth which is the main core principle of Buddhism.

Buddhism on the other hand provide believers the Problem Solving Technique so that one can resolve one's own spiritual and existential issues.

Thus my point is, in comparison to all the religions and spiritualities, Buddhism is very efficient and know its stuff in relation to spirituality.

The generic Problem Solving Technique is not specifically System Theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

Problem Solving Techniques may be a tool used within a large system or
some of the specific areas of problem solving technique [root cause analysis] may use the system approach.
Then why are the suffering so great in India, the home of Buddhism ..infact like 80% of all buddhist nations?!?! Why are Denmark awarded the most happiest nation for over a decade, when they're atheists?

You are completely clueless, a parrot that doesn't understand the words in any greater context.
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

HexHammer wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:43 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:35 amBuddhism is the first religion and perhaps the only religion that introduce an explicit Problem Solving Technique specifically in the Four Noble Truth which is the main core principle of Buddhism.

Buddhism on the other hand provide believers the Problem Solving Technique so that one can resolve one's own spiritual and existential issues.

Thus my point is, in comparison to all the religions and spiritualities, Buddhism is very efficient and know its stuff in relation to spirituality.

The generic Problem Solving Technique is not specifically System Theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

Problem Solving Techniques may be a tool used within a large system or
some of the specific areas of problem solving technique [root cause analysis] may use the system approach.
Then why are the suffering so great in India, the home of Buddhism ..infact like 80% of all buddhist nations?!?! Why are Denmark awarded the most happiest nation for over a decade, when they're atheists?

You are completely clueless, a parrot that doesn't understand the words in any greater context.
Your problem is you are unable to differentiate between the ideology and whether the people are practicing the ideology properly.

Note there is an increasing trend of Westerners moving towards Buddhism-proper and advaita-Vedanta proper. Why is this so?
This increasing trend in based on the principles and practices of Buddhism-proper not those abused practices by certain monk and lay-people in Buddhist majority countries.


This quote was supposedly by Einstein but that is disputed.
Nevertheless there is a lot of truth [verifiable] in the said statement.
  • ”The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. ...
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism.”
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by TimeSeeker »

Is that Buddhism proper like Socialism proper? ;)

How do you tell if you are practicing an ideology “proper”?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TimeSeeker wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:54 am Is Buddhism proper that like Socialism proper?

How do you tell if you are practicing an ideology “proper”?
'Proper' means sticking to the core principles of the ideology.

The core ideology and principles of Buddhism-proper do not cater for any one to pray to idols, gods, deities, & the likes, but these are practiced in many Buddhist temples all over the world.
Image

The Buddha denounced the practice of asceticism but there are still many monks who are ascetics due to their very strong proclivity to do so.

Point is Buddhism is flexible, dynamic and accommodating to cater to the spiritual status of the believers of which the majority are more attuned to idols, gods, deities, & the likes. It is just like any parents who go along with a child [2-4?] believing Santa is a real person from the North Pole.

Note the rigid Abrahamic religions where the slightest non-compliance of any of the commands of God in its holy texts could meant death.
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:33 am 'Proper' means sticking to the core principles of the ideology.

The core ideology and principles of Buddhism-proper do not cater for any one to pray to idols, gods, deities, & the likes, but these are practiced in many Buddhist temples all over the world.
Image

Point is Buddhism is flexible, dynamic and accommodating to cater to the spiritual status of the believers of which the majority are more attuned to idols, gods, deities, & the likes. It is just like any parents who go along with a child [2-4?] believing Santa is a real person from the North Pole.
Yes. I know that one can READ the core principles.
I am asking how one determines if they have INTERPRETED and therefore UNDERSTOOD the core principles.
And therefore how one determine if they are PRACTICING the core principles proper.

How would one determine that Buddhism is working; or not working for them?

Could one end up in a situation where they are practicing Buddhism proper and it is not working?
Could one end up in a situation where they are practicing Buddhism improper and it is working?

What does Buddhism say about getting out of either of those pickles?
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TimeSeeker wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:40 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:33 am 'Proper' means sticking to the core principles of the ideology.

The core ideology and principles of Buddhism-proper do not cater for any one to pray to idols, gods, deities, & the likes, but these are practiced in many Buddhist temples all over the world.
Image

Point is Buddhism is flexible, dynamic and accommodating to cater to the spiritual status of the believers of which the majority are more attuned to idols, gods, deities, & the likes. It is just like any parents who go along with a child [2-4?] believing Santa is a real person from the North Pole.
Yes. I know that one can READ the core principles.
I am asking how one determines if they have INTERPRETED and therefore UNDERSTOOD the core principles.
And therefore how one determine if they are PRACTICING the core principles proper.

How would one determine that Buddhism is working; or not working for them?

Could one end up in a situation where they are practicing Buddhism proper and it is not working?
Could one end up in a situation where they are practicing Buddhism improper and it is working?
It is not easy to achieve the above.

One of the basic default of Buddhism is the Kalama Sutta,
The Kālāma Sutta is a discourse of the Buddha contained in the Aṅguttara Nikaya of the Tipiṭaka.[1] It is often cited by those of the Theravada and Mahayana traditions alike as the Buddha's "charter of free inquiry."[2]

The Kālāma Sutta is also used for advocating prudence by the use of sound logical reasoning arguments for inquiries in the practice that relates to the discipline of seeking truth, wisdom and knowledge whether it is religious or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta
From the basic of the Kalama Sutta, must need to start with the Continuous improvement model of the 4NT-8FP model and system.

From the 4NT-8FP model, one critical element is 'Right View and Understanding'.
The first iterative is to ask is, do one has the right view and understanding of the Kalama Sutta and the 4NT-8FP.

Then one proceed [right action and effort] to have the right understanding of the other core principles of Buddhism proper.

The Kalama Sutta do not condone blind faith, thus must go through the 4NT-8FP iteratively a hundred, thousand or million times to polish to the near truths of what should be.

In addition, there is a necessity of the right effort to cultivate the brain/mind to the highest possible state to grasp, understand and be able to spontaneously align with Buddhism proper.

Thus the most important thing is to go through the 4NT-8FP continuously by never-ending questioning everything and one will be able to highlight errors and realign to the core principles of Buddhism proper.

What I stated seem simple but the contents of knowledge and practices [right concentration, right mindfulness] involved is very extensive and heavy.
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:08 am It is not easy to achieve the above.
I am not asking if it's "easy" or not. I am asking what one does when one gets there. Because any field of enquiry always ends up into difficult questions sooner or later.

Example follows....
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:08 am The first iterative is to ask is, do one has the right view and understanding of the Kalama Sutta and the 4NT-8FP.
Then one proceed [right action and effort] to have the right understanding of the other core principles of Buddhism proper.
You have put the cart before the horse here. You have missed a step!

When one asks "do one has the right view and understanding of the Kalama Sutta and the 4NT-8FP?" you have landed on my turf: Computer science. The question has a yes/no response. This is called a decision problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_problem
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:08 am Thus the most important thing is to go through the 4NT-8FP continuously by never-ending questioning everything and one will be able to highlight errors and realign to the core principles of Buddhism proper.
Indeed! I am questioning. From the Kalama Sutta itself:
The same text, said the Buddha, must be applied to his own teachings.
Do not accept any doctrine from reverence, but first try it as gold is tried by fire.
So here is my fire to your gold:

Do I have the right view and understanding of Kalama Sutta and the 4NT-8FP?
Show me how you would use Kalama Sutta and the 4NT-8FP to get the answer ;)

And that is what neither the Buddha nor Einstein understood. Recursion/computation.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by TimeSeeker »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:59 am As with all ideologies. Take the good - leave the bad. Synthesise something better and more useful.

There are no authorities that are not invented. So there are no gurus.
We have taken the Buddha's teachings and we have incorporated the best of them into the 21st century's body of knowledge.
You will find the same wisdom and more in Systems theory/Complexity theory/Computer science.

Stand on the shoulders of giants - do not reinvent the wheel ;)
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TimeSeeker wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:19 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:08 am It is not easy to achieve the above.
I am not asking if it's "easy" or not. I am asking what one does when one gets there. Because any field of enquiry always ends up into difficult questions sooner or later.

Example follows....
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:08 am The first iterative is to ask is, do one has the right view and understanding of the Kalama Sutta and the 4NT-8FP.
Then one proceed [right action and effort] to have the right understanding of the other core principles of Buddhism proper.
You have put the cart before the horse here. You have missed a step!

When one asks "do one has the right view and understanding of the Kalama Sutta and the 4NT-8FP?" you have landed on my turf: Computer science. The question has a yes/no response. This is called a decision problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_problem
Yes, it is a Yes/No scenario.
This can be answered by ticking off the checklist of criteria stipulated within the Kalama Sutta.
Ticking the checklist the first time will give one [guided and in discussion with others] an idea whether one is on the right track or not.
Point is one should not merely tick one time but continuously counter check many times.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:08 am Thus the most important thing is to go through the 4NT-8FP continuously by never-ending questioning everything and one will be able to highlight errors and realign to the core principles of Buddhism proper.
Indeed! I am questioning.
Note Russell's

Bertrand Russell wrote:Thus, to sum up our discussion of the value of philosophy;
Philosophy is to be studied, not for the sake of any definite answers to its questions since no definite answers can, as a rule, be known to be true, but rather for the sake of the questions themselves;
because these questions enlarge our conception of what is possible, enrich our intellectual imagination and diminish the dogmatic assurance which closes the mind against speculation;
The same text, said the Buddha, must be applied to his own teachings.
Do not accept any doctrine from reverence, but first try it as gold is tried by fire.
So here is my fire to your gold:

Do I have the right view and understanding of Kalama Sutta and the 4NT-8FP?
Show me how you would use Kalama Sutta and the 4NT-8FP to get the answer ;)
As I had stated there is no absolute right view.
The principle and practice of continual questioning and checking [using sound philosophical tools - logic, rationality, epistemology, critical thinking, wisdom, morality, etc.] will definitely be better than blind faith.

The another aspect is the verification and confirmation from personal experiences and other justification methods that one is on the right path.
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Re: Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:04 am The principle and practice of continual questioning and checking [using sound philosophical tools - logic, rationality, epistemology, critical thinking, wisdom, morality, etc.] will definitely be better than blind faith.
And yet you seem to have taken the 4NT-8FP AND Russel's teachings on blind faith ;)

Because when it comes down to it - people don't just ask questions for the sake of asking questions. People expect reasonable answers too.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:04 am As I had stated there is no absolute right view.
Of course, but nobody is asking for an 'absolutely right view'. This only speaks to Asimov's Wronger than wrong.
When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together.
And so on the whole - systems theory/the scientific method is less wrong than the Buddha ;)
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