Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:10 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:02 am Note you cannot deny there are regular news of evils and violence related to Islam from all over the world almost on a daily basis.
Note this site,
https://thereligionofpeace.com/
there is a daily listing of evil related to Islam on the right side of the Home Page.

I am aware there all sorts of problems and evil acts around the world.
I find the best I can do is to critique Islam.
Btw, note my proposals and project of establishing a Framework and System of Morality and Ethics for humanity which I cannot implement but at least can discuss about it.
Ignore the news! Go with science instead: http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheet ... s-of-death

The fact that the best you can do is to critique Islam is a symptom not the cause. You are still looking for a worth-while problem to solve ;)
Figure out what your strengths are and focus there. You will not fix religion. There is nothing to fix! "God-belief" is a red herring. Terrorists are just puppets for political agendas.
Note my strategy is very simple.
When I can convinced the mass of Muslims God is an impossibility, groundless and a fake then the Quran would be defanged.
If there is no divine Quran, no one will be motivated by the evil verses from the Quran to justify their evil acts.
Parents will have no grounds to sacrifice their sons and daughters as suicide bomber.
QED!

The problem is to find fool proof alternative to replace religion in dealing with the inherent unavoidable existential crisis.
Mean while - I promise you, a framework like the one you are proposing already exists and is far more developed than what you have in mind. Industrial and systems engineers live and breathe this stuff. It is grounded in systems theory, measurement/management science and continuous improvement. No different to how the airline industry works continuously on reducing airplane crashes (and succeeding!!!! so learn from them). No different to how medicine is trying to continuously improve patient health and care.
That is the No Harm principle in action!

Learn from mistakes. Understand root cause. Devise solution and implement. It's a cycle.

This is how society works. It's a system. Its objective is 'no harm'. This may be of interest to you: https://www.england.nhs.uk/signuptosafe ... e-papr.pdf
I know what you are talking about but that is not my point.
A Framework and System of Morality and Ethics while has basic principles of system theory is different in its architectonic.

Note I have been involved in models and system of continuous improvement, note Zero Defects System, Six-Sigma Systems, Poka Yoke, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Defects
Six Sigma at many organizations simply means a measure of quality that strives for near perfection. Six Sigma is a disciplined, data-driven approach and methodology for eliminating defects (driving toward six standard deviations between the mean and the nearest specification limit) in any process – from manufacturing to transactional and from product to service.
https://www.isixsigma.com/new-to-six-si ... six-sigma/
Poka-yoke (ポカヨケ, [poka joke]) is a Japanese term that means "mistake-proofing" or "inadvertent error prevention". The key word in the second translation, often omitted, is "inadvertent". There is no poka-yoke solution that protects against an operator's sabotage, but sabotage is a rare behavior among people.[1] A poka-yoke is any mechanism in a lean manufacturing process that helps an equipment operator avoid (yokeru) mistakes (poka). Its purpose is to eliminate product defects by preventing, correcting, or drawing attention to human errors as they occur.[2]
-wiki
What I proposed incorporate the basic principles of the above but the fundamental forms are different and require very extensive and complex constructions.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:52 am Note my strategy is very simple.
When I can convinced the mass of Muslims God is an impossibility, groundless and a fake then the Quran would be defanged.
If there is no divine Quran, no one will be motivated by the evil verses from the Quran to justify their evil acts.
And when the "evil acts" continue at the same quantity/volume/frequency but under a different banner - you will be scratching your head as to what went wrong.

I am telling you - you aren't hearing me. Religion is not a causal factor. It is an epiphenomenon ;)

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:52 am Parents will have no grounds to sacrifice their sons and daughters as suicide bomber.
QED!
Except most suicide bombers are people who have nothing left to live for e.g parents who have lost their children.
Men who have lost their families

Which is why they are so easy to recruit. Most people actually enjoy living and dont want to go boom.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:52 am The problem is to find fool proof alternative to replace religion in dealing with the inherent unavoidable existential crisis.
And you think existential chrisis is the root cause? What if THAT conclusion is wrong ? ;)
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:52 am https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Defects

Six Sigma at many organizations simply means a measure of quality that strives for near perfection. Six Sigma is a disciplined, data-driven approach and methodology for eliminating defects (driving toward six standard deviations between the mean and the nearest specification limit) in any process – from manufacturing to transactional and from product to service.
https://www.isixsigma.com/new-to-six-si ... six-sigma/
Yes. You call it Six Sigma. I call it systematic. It is the only approach that actually works...

Because you find out really quickly (low latency feedback) if anything is improving. If "Religion" is "going down by 50 % year on year" and evil is not.

You fucked up somewhere in your reasoning.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by Dontaskme »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:04 amThese people are acting and commit real evil acts based on their beliefs not justified evidences and proofs.
Why do you even care that people are acting and commiting evil based on their beliefs by your own belief that there is a person who is actually doing this said action?

Why do you care?

Do you commit evil acts? ..if no, then its not affecting you, so why do you care about the actions of others? ..what's in it for you personally? can you physically stop the free will of another person? how are you going to stop their complusion to act as they wish?

Why do care if someone is mentally ill and wants to cause evil on the world..are you mentally ill? is the action of anothers mentally ill evil actions effecting you making you mentally ill that you too want to kill people aswell?

And lets say the actions of another did effect you, why would you care? ...do you have some psycological existential fear crisis going on in your head or something? why would the actions of another bother you? can you explain why that would bother you?

Remember, the fear of death is why we invent God, according to you...so if God is not possible, then why are you bothered about what other people are doing, your fearless remember, you don't have to invent an escape route for fear...so why do you care about those that do, according to your belief?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:04 amIf there are people who would want to kill you because their God said so, we need to understand the basis and mechanics of their psyche.
I seriously cannot believe that as a grown adult, you still believe stories of Gods that tell people to kill other people, seriously, do you honestly believe half of this rubbish that is your own believed thoughts..?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:04 am
This is why we need to understand why the idea of God is illusory and trace that to their psychology in the brain.
Because the illusion of God is real, its a direct experience. Not by the brain, but by the direct experience of being...but when that beingness starts to believe it is more than its beingness, and projects that otherness as being outside of itself, a separation occurs within the mind, and from that premise is when the dysfunction begins to take hold. The separation anxiety kicks in because no one likes to feel separated, its unnatural. The identitfied being is the illusion, not beingness itself. Your just believing in the illusions of otherness here, rather than focusing your attention on direct beingness..your not rationally thinking about this at all.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:04 amI am a concerned and responsible citizen of humanity, thus my obligation to pursue this, at least epistemological with the hope it can be practical in time.

Why is it your obligation to pursue another persons deluded belief in otherness? is the action of another your responsibilty, or your concern, and why? who are you to deny the free will action of another person...whats in it for you? does it make you fearful? why and what are you fearful about?
Are you afraid of dying? remember, you are fearless, you do not have to invent the escape route to cheat death, so why do you care?

Source manifests and here it is, there is no one or thing doing it, its not dependant on some middleman arbiter who stands by who acts as judge and jury and arbiter as to what should be manifested or not. That just makes you a God.


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TimeSeeker
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by TimeSeeker »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:19 pm Why do you even care that people are acting and commiting evil based on their beliefs by your own belief that there is a person who is actually doing this said action?

Why do you care?
Because I have free will. I CHOOSE to care.

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:19 pm Do you commit evil acts? ..if no, then its not affecting you,
Evil does not exist and this argument is non-sequitur. We co-exist. Your actions can and do affect me.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:19 pm so why do you care about the actions of others? ..what's in it for you personally?
I have free will. What is in it for me is that I will that you do not punch me in the face. I also will for us to co-operate to solve things that hurt US. Disease etc.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:19 pm can you physically stop the free will of another person? how are you going to stop their complusion to act as they wish?
I will that you respect my free will as I respect your free will, because if you do not see me as a free will equal to you then I will deprive you of your free will. Through violence if necessary.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by Dontaskme »

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
These people are acting and commit real evil acts based on their beliefs not justified evidences and proofs.
Had to come back to this.

I see, it seems evil is real but god is not real.

How do you work that out, how do reason that evil is real and god isn't VA?

This is going to be another very interesting story too, I can't wait to see this one unfold.

.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by Dontaskme »

TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:12 pm Because I have free will. I CHOOSE to care.
If you can choose to care, you can choose to not care, what ever you choose will be your own involvement.

Quite frankly I wouldn't choose to get involved in others persons business.

TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:12 pmEvil does not exist and this argument is non-sequitur. We co-exist. Your actions can and do affect me.
Only if you permit them to.

TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:12 pm I also will for us to co-operate to solve things that hurt US. Disease etc.
That has nothing to do with the actions of a murderous mind. No drug on earth is going to cure free will.


TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:12 pmI will that you respect my free will as I respect your free will, because if you do not see me as a free will equal to you then I will deprive you of your free will. Through violence if necessary.
Life is violent, its only purpose is to survive, at all cost, it will do what ever it take to ensure its own survival. so why be concerned about it?
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by TimeSeeker »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:22 pm If you can chosse to care, you can choose to not care, what ever you choose will be your own involment.

Quite frankly I wouldn't choose to get involved in others persons business.
And yet here you are - telling me what to choose. I have free will ;)

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:22 pm Only if you permit them to.
OK. Try rescinding permission to a bullet entering your head. You have FREE will. Not INFINITELY POWERFUL will ;)
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:22 pm That has nothing to do with the actions of a murderous mind. No drug on earth is going to cure free will.
You pre-suppose murder is an act of free will. Not everybody has claimed their free will.
Some murder out of fear. They do not have free will.

Free will is being able to murder and CHOOSING not to. Do you have free will? Can you stop yourself from murdering out of fear?
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:22 pm Life is violent, its only purpose is to survive, at all cost, it will do what ever it take to ensure its own survival. so why be concerned about it?
Because it aligns with my goal of survival. Cooperation increases my odds of survival. Strength in numbers.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by Dontaskme »

TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:27 pm And yet here you are - telling me what to choose. I have free will ;)
no one is telling you to choose anything. I was being self referential.


TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:27 pmOK. Try rescinding permission to a bullet entering your head. You have FREE will. Not INFINITELY POWERFUL will ;)
this is not the same free will as simply not allowing someone to get inside your head. If a bullet comes at me, I have no choice but to bite it.

All choice is a choiceless choice.

TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:27 pmYou pre-suppose murder is an act of free will. Not everybody has claimed their free will.
Some murder out of fear. They do not have free will.

Free will is being able to murder and CHOOSING not to. Do you have free will? Can you stop yourself from murdering out of fear?
Fear does not exist. The fight or flight is an automatic reflex, its not a choice of will to fight or flight.

TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:27 pmBecause it aligns with my goal of survival. Cooperation increases my odds of survival. Strength in numbers.
Cooperation is the selfish gene. Its only purpose is is to survive no matter what that involves be it cooperation or not, its still the will to survive.
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by TimeSeeker »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:37 pm no one is telling you to choose anything. I was being self referential.
OK. So you recognise the choice and the free will. But you also said that 'survival' is your strategy.

And so I ask: do you think the lone wolf or the wolf that hunts in packs fares better in the wild?

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:37 pm All choice is a choiceless choice.
OK. Mr Self-referential. Choosing not to choose is a choice.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:37 pm Fear does not exist. The fight or flight is an automatic reflex, its not a choice of will to fight or flight.
Yes. It is autonomous. Until you exercise your free will and make it a choice. I have the tools, the training and the mindset to fight or flight.I get to CHOOSE which one happens depending on the circumstances despite my fear. Fear is just information. It is your instincts screaming "DANGER! DANGER!" - you still get to decide how to interpret OR react to the signal. It could be a false alarm.

If that choice is not available to you (e.g you can't ignore your instincts) then you don't have free will.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:37 pm Cooperation is the selfish gene. Its only purpose is is to survive no matter what that involves be it cooperation or not, its still the will to survive.
Except no evidence for such gene (as in a DNA sequence) exist. Everything that has DNA or RNA strives for self-replication. I imagine the ones that didn't are now extinct?
Dawkins is religious. If I choose that I do not wish to live/survive anymore. I will eat my gun. Actually - that will leave a bloody mess for you to clean up. Euthenasia is fine.

True choice is being able to CHOOSE not to. Despite what your instincts tell you. Self-awareness and self-control. And so if you have any female influence in your life - listen to them and learn how to process your emotions! Feelings matter ;) They are useful information!
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Dontaskme
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by Dontaskme »

All choice is a choiceless choice.

You cannot end your life, because there is no you to end your life.

So all these acts of evil intention to kill others is all in vain.

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TimeSeeker
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by TimeSeeker »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:39 pm All choice is a choiceless choice.

You cannot end your life, because there is no you to end your life.

So all these acts of evil intention to kill others is all in vain.
OK. Then let me end your life? We can go to a country where can sign an NDA and I will kill you. Live on Youtube for everyone to see that you practice what you preach.

But first - I will shoot you in the kneecaps. Maybe acid in your eyes. And hot oil down your back. So that you can experience this pain that is all in vain.

Oh. I FORGOT! All choice is choiceless. It's happening then. You will receive further instructions in the mail. Just respond with your contact details, OK?

Nihilism doesn't suit you. Else you wouldn't be here ;)
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Duncan Butlin
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Re: Veritas Aequitas's illusory God

Post by Duncan Butlin »

I agree with Veritas that we need to do something about the violence of the Muslim faith -- especially the 36% of young Muslims in the UK who believe that apostates should be killed. I have set up a website for that purpose (Muslim Civility) and I’d very much appreciate any ideas as to how to steer Muslim traffic that way. I have got our local Imam to undertake to put up my poster, but he has not got a mosque to put it up in yet.
Allah the most merciful.png
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henry quirk
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"we need to do something about the violence of the Muslim faith"

Post by henry quirk »

Islam needs reformation but that has to happen from the inside, and it won't be easy for them (cuz schism never is).
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Re: "we need to do something about the violence of the Muslim faith"

Post by TimeSeeker »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:34 pm Islam needs reformation but that has to happen from the inside, and it won't be easy for them (cuz schism never is).
So here is a conundrum: On a scale of 1 to 10 how much do you want Islamic reformation to happen?

Where 10 is "Learn about it. Understand it. Adopt it and practice it - so that you become accepted as part of the in-group."

Do you want Islam to change enough that you are willing to go lead this change from the front and invest your own time and resourced to drive that change? Or is it somebody else's job to do the hard work?

I think "it won't be easy for them" gives us the right answer ;)
You want it to change so badly - you are willing to do nothing about it.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"You want it to change so badly - you are willing to do nothing about it."

I don't want to change it...I'm not muslim.

My comment was in response to sumthin' Duncan posted.
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