Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

[gaffo]

That's news to me. Which is the same or different?

Beelzebub = Babylonian God

no, its a reference to Baal the Cananite/Archaic Jewish God and YHWH's Brother.

Marduke, Taimat were the babylonian gods at that time.

and no relation to Baal.
=================================
the above may be Summarian now that i think about it, not sure i can name a Babylonian god ;-/.

[gaffo]

In Islam Satan or Iblis was not an an angel but a jinn which is not a demon but just a mysterious creature

I've not heard this - you may be wrong. would welcome references to your view on this.

In Christianity Satan was an angel who openly defied God by refusing to bow down when ordered to do so

that event is not in the Bible nor is it affirmed by Christians - its on the Koran and in a 200 AD christian proto-ghnstic work (Testament of Adam and Eve?)

are you a Muslim? your reference above about Satan being ordered to bow before Adam tends to make me think so, no christian have knowledge of this story let alone uses it in their christology.


.....................

there are also two stories of the Fall of Satan

1. conventional one we have today ties in with the "refusal to bow" (Pride) - its also why Satan rebeled agains YHWH in The Apocalypse.

2. Lust - for forinication by Satan (and his Legion) on mortal women (result were "halfbreeds" and a world wide flood to kill the poluted gene pool (out of Noah's immediates) - refer to Genesis. Satan/legion are still tempted and try to have the way with women even after the flood. Refer to the Book of Jubaless also.

#2 above Chistian theology (and Judiac) - rulled over #1 (even Paul affirmed the Lust theology) - until 300 century or so.

then #2 theology died and slow death and is now forgotten/ignored by all.

[gaffo]

A cherub is the highest ranking angel.

um, nope.

Cherub is "middle management"

Seraphim is the highest rank of angel.

Othomom the lowest rank.

3 ranks Sir, and Cherubs are not the highest rank.

[Greta]

Crikey, I just thought the lot of them were the same entity. Still, there is one entity that rules them all - Entropy!

[Greatest I am]

oh - addendum - good to see you again.
all is wellish i hope?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EigVvZMw3Ds

Regards
DL

nice song, and good to hear you are well. that song's lyrics reminded me of my girlfriend - who wears jeans too tight all the time - and she being born with "back" (ya she's a lovely Black gal), makes it all the better for me. Of course i'm White as white can be, and live in the Bible belt - but over the last 1.5 yrs, not noted any racist looks or remarks when out in public, so that is good.

not that i'd give a damn about asshats anyway - just would not like for my gal to have to deal with it.

That little bit of extra good stuff makes for great dancers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo

It can get overdone though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YugRzMd2gc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNg2Ug153fQ

Dumb is as dumb does.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

God made them with free will, and the capacity to understand, its implied. Of all the trees of the Garden you may freely eat, but for the knowledge of the tree of good and evil, for if you eat of that tree you shall surely die. A & E, made a choice, and their is no mention of programming to do it. It was a free choice, and God left them alone to make it.

You added all that programming stuff.

Some leeway is always required with myths.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Regards
DL

agreed - well said.

Thanks.

Speaking of booty, dance and your compliment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4jXggZBwYU

Regards
DL

[gaffo]

Crikey, I just thought the lot of them were the same entity. Still, there is one entity that rules them all - Entropy!

well, now you know.

an interest in bibilical history is invaluable - in weeding out the "whacko Endtimers" (end day nuts with not historical knowledge) - a knowledge of history/relegious evolution via time.........is helpful in accurate understanding of Bibilcal Works (most Christians today have no understanding of history and so for example - they think Jonah was a rightious prophet - a forebearor of Jesus (they read the "3 days in the whale" and think "gee Jonah was Christ!)....................which of course is the OPPOSITE (author of Jonah is my friend, we understand each other - and he is spinning in his grave over the "understanding" by damn near all Christians of his work "book of Jonah").

Jonah was no Christ - he was a dick! fully! - 3 day in the fish - means nothing in the story - what matters is that the pagan fishermen (not jews for sure!) - cared about jonah's life during the storm (not wanting to throw him overboard - while Jonah was so CLUELESS of the moral thunderstorm (YHWH making storms) - who only the PAGAN fisherman understood! - while Jonah slept!


that storm was an attempt to correct Jonah - YHWH made the storm to make Jonah worry (instead he slept, and the PAGAN fishermen took note! (yes the author of he work was stating in effect that the non-jewish Pagan Fisher man were more worthy/godly - than Jonah).

HELL the whole theme of Jonah is "I will send you to Ninivah" to convert the utterly lost...............and Jonah refuses the command! - he is judge and jury - determines that Assyians are not worth salvation - and so ignores the command.

thus the storms/fisherman/etc...................

fk!!!!!!!!!!

even at the end of the story - the author makes clear that even the CATTLE of Ninivah are more worthy than Jonah - who learned NOTHING from his travails.

he even curses the vine over his head at the end of the story - that YHWH makes to grow and shade his head in the heat of the day in Ninivah.

Jonah is a lout - form the begining to the end.

BTW Jonah was written to counter Ezra (also a lout - who i know full well the author loathed) and was written a century or so after the Tribal Ezra work (also in the OT) - Ezra nullified marraige between Jews and non-jews and forbad future marriages.

Author of Jonah was a Universval Humanist and was opposed to Ezra's work/theme/mindset.

as am I - and why Jonah is my second fave work in the OT - after Amos.

[Greta]

The ancients certainly lived in a strange and mystical mental world where all manner of forces of nature were thought to be spirits with agency, that could be reasoned and bargained with.

[gaffo]

The ancients certainly lived in a strange and mystical mental world where all manner of forces of nature were thought to be spirits with agency, that could be reasoned and bargained with.

yes - animism(sp) - babling brook, spirit tree etc......

more important to me as a universal humanist, is viewing humans as humans since at least 1/2 million yrs ago.

so i view the authors of our bibles as just like you and me - i.e their core nature - not particular dogmatic view of the world.

some were asshles - like sadly some are now - others were good folks with good conscience.

that is why when i read those old texts as an Athiest - outisde of parsing "Which god/etc (which i have in interest in for historical/geekdome reasons) - more aptly i like to "get an overview" of the work - its moral theme.

and not being a "Belevier" - i have no problem throwing out works by folks i think were dks when living (like all of Saul's works).

and Ezra and the author of Leviticus. tribal filth from tribal minds.

other works like author of john - i do not convict - i know he had an agenda - equating YHWH with Jesus - that was his view (I do not think ill of him for that view - his work does not seem "Evil" to me, but it does leave me Cold - Jesus is an all knowing robot)

Mark is the best work in the NT - i like the humanity of Jesus in it and think the author of that work wished to show this in book.

I like Amos because that author wrote that work work when Israel was a regional power full of pride awaiting for the Final Day (Day of YHWH) - where they full of pride assumed their God would smite all others. author of Amos was all about Humility - dont be so sure/welcoming of Judgment Day (i.e. look inward before you welcome the end days). Amos is also the oldest work in the Bible and oddly enough a Universal Humaist work - author claims "chosen people" (the jews) - is a Responibility - not a privalage! - and if you out of Pride fail, YHWH will removed your "chosen" and give it to other people more worthy (Etheopeans)..................note: last part of Amos was added by latter scribes, removing the theme of revoking choseness if unworthy - thus corrupting the author's theme of the work (sadly too few know this fact).

I like Job for the same reason as i like amos - Pride bad. Humility good. to ask god why he has made your life hell is a prideful question (that question is never answered in Job). BTW "Job" was writtin around 250 BC - 4 centuries of occupation and the jews were starting to doubt there god (why are we still occupied?) .....Job is not a person, "he" is Israel. and no no christian (or Jew) today (at least those with no historical context - damn near all sadly) understands this.

I like Jonah for its universal humanst theme - as stated in prior thread.

thanks for reply.

[Greta]

The ancients we like us in many ways. The difference between us and them is basically equivalent to the difference between teens and adults - life experience. We have all these thousands of years of extra experience now.

Our bodies of knowledge built from that experience are now huge, and growing exponentially. In fact, the knowledge bases are so enormous and complex that they can be forbidding for some people, who then reject all of that hard-won knowledge altogether, which is obviously a problem.

[gaffo]

The ancients we like us in many ways. The difference between us and them is basically equivalent to the difference between teens and adults - life experience. We have all these thousands of years of extra experience now.

Our bodies of knowledge built from that experience are now huge, and growing exponentially. In fact, the knowledge bases are so enormous and complex that they can be forbidding for some people, who then reject all of that hard-won knowledge altogether, which is obviously a problem.

With respect (i do respect you - seen your posts since ive been here for a year now).

and agree we have infinitely more knowledge - but SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!

KNOWLEDGE is NOT WISDOM!!!!!!!

and so today there are the same number of folks who are FOOLS as there are WISE.

as there were was 100,000 yrs ago.

and so I have to reject your argument (that olden day folks were fools for lack of knowledge).

for sure there were fools (majority then as now n doubt) - only back then ignorant fools, where today we have knowledgable ones.

also, there were always a minority of wise folks - back then as today - and in the future.

I value wisdom over knowledge (they are both of value - but UNRELATED!) - and why valuing wisdom, I value wise council from authors utterly unknowlegable living millinia ago - like those i mention above.

thanks for reply.

[gaffo]

some people, who then reject all of that hard-won knowledge altogether, which is obviously a problem.

only fools reject knowledge.

wise persons do not.

ignorant auhtor of Jonah/Job/Amos - having "Horse sense" (being wise) - would not ignore knowledge nor deny its value.

only fools do this.

and thus why there are as many fools today as a percentage of population as there was in pre-history.

same number of Wise too.

Wisdom is not based upon Knowledge Madam!!!

Wisdom = self knowledge, which is probably mostly inborn capacity of self reflection. which requires no knowledge of science.

just "Horse sense" - which for some reason all to many folks lacked the genes for - and so why we have knowledable fools like Edward Teller/and company.

[Greta]

The ancients we like us in many ways. The difference between us and them is basically equivalent to the difference between teens and adults - life experience. We have all these thousands of years of extra experience now.

Our bodies of knowledge built from that experience are now huge, and growing exponentially. In fact, the knowledge bases are so enormous and complex that they can be forbidding for some people, who then reject all of that hard-won knowledge altogether, which is obviously a problem.

With respect (i do respect you - seen your posts since ive been here for a year now).

and agree we have infinitely more knowledge - but SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!

KNOWLEDGE is NOT WISDOM!!!!!!!

and so today there are the same number of folks who are FOOLS as there are WISE.

as there were was 100,000 yrs ago.

My first moment of reading this I thought "fair enough".

But it's not so simple. There will always be geniuses, very bright, bright, average, below average, simple and incompetent people. The proportions change, though. If you are living in the US you could be forgiven for believing a regression is in train but it's only a blip in history. In the scales we refer to, a blip can last a lifetime or more so it's serious business at the time.

[gaffo]

The ancients we like us in many ways. The difference between us and them is basically equivalent to the difference between teens and adults - life experience. We have all these thousands of years of extra experience now.

Our bodies of knowledge built from that experience are now huge, and growing exponentially. In fact, the knowledge bases are so enormous and complex that they can be forbidding for some people, who then reject all of that hard-won knowledge altogether, which is obviously a problem.

With respect (i do respect you - seen your posts since ive been here for a year now).

and agree we have infinitely more knowledge - but SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!

KNOWLEDGE is NOT WISDOM!!!!!!!

and so today there are the same number of folks who are FOOLS as there are WISE.

as there were was 100,000 yrs ago.

My first moment of reading this I thought "fair enough".

But it's not so simple. There will always be geniuses, very bright, bright, average, below average, simple and incompetent people. The proportions change, though. If you are living in the US you could be forgiven for believing a regression is in train but it's only a blip in history. In the scales we refer to, a blip can last a lifetime or more so it's serious business at the time.

??? have no clue of what you are saying above.

I'm Simple.

my point was clear above.

do you not agree? if not, use small words so a simple man like me can understand.

thanks for reply!

[Greta]

With respect (i do respect you - seen your posts since ive been here for a year now).

and agree we have infinitely more knowledge - but SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!

KNOWLEDGE is NOT WISDOM!!!!!!!

and so today there are the same number of folks who are FOOLS as there are WISE.

as there were was 100,000 yrs ago.

My first moment of reading this I thought "fair enough".

But it's not so simple. There will always be geniuses, very bright, bright, average, below average, simple and incompetent people. The proportions change, though. If you are living in the US you could be forgiven for believing a regression is in train but it's only a blip in history. In the scales we refer to, a blip can last a lifetime or more so it's serious business at the time.

??? have no clue of what you are saying above.

I'm Simple.

my point was clear above.

do you not agree? if not, use small words so a simple man like me can understand.

thanks for reply!

Am I allowed to use the word "relatively"? I think I'll need it to explain.