Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Greatest I am
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by Greatest I am » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:20 pm

osgart wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:18 am


They had the presence of God, and the presence of Satan. As they experienced both of them, they already had sufficient understanding of good and evil. To eat from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil was redundant, and therefore a waste of an action.

God did not create them without minds, and hearts.
Your assumption is not following the story line so I doubt that we will get far.

How could they have knowledge and understanding of good and evil before consuming the knowledge of what good and evil from the knowledge tree?

Regards
DL

HexHammer
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by HexHammer » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:46 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:43 pm
Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Adam thought so. He instantly and without argument or hesitation ate of that knowledge when Eve offered love to Adam.

Without Satan causing Original Sin, mankind could no know of love or hate as love and hate are subject to being good or evil.

Would you do as Adam did?

Was Satan right in opening our eyes to love and hate?

Should we venerate Satan more than Yahweh who tried to deny mankind love?
What are you talking about!?!?! ...never seen anywhere in the bible that Satan gave anyone love.
I think you mix up Satan for Lucifer.

According to the muslims Satan is the "Accuser", and Lucifer was the "Light Bringer, Son of Dawn". In the bible Lucifer says he's equal to god, thereby he's cast down from the heavens with 1/3 of the angels.

.............or maybe I remember wrong.

osgart
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by osgart » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:19 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:20 pm
osgart wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:18 am


They had the presence of God, and the presence of Satan. As they experienced both of them, they already had sufficient understanding of good and evil. To eat from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil was redundant, and therefore a waste of an action.

God did not create them without minds, and hearts.
Your assumption is not following the story line so I doubt that we will get far.

How could they have knowledge and understanding of good and evil before consuming the knowledge of what good and evil from the knowledge tree?

Regards
DL
God made them with free will, and the capacity to understand, its implied. Of all the trees of the Garden you may freely eat, but for the knowledge of the tree of good and evil, for if you eat of that tree you shall surely die. A & E, made a choice, and their is no mention of programming to do it. It was a free choice, and God left them alone to make it.

You added all that programming stuff.

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Greatest I am
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:07 am

HexHammer wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:46 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:43 pm
Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Adam thought so. He instantly and without argument or hesitation ate of that knowledge when Eve offered love to Adam.

Without Satan causing Original Sin, mankind could no know of love or hate as love and hate are subject to being good or evil.

Would you do as Adam did?

Was Satan right in opening our eyes to love and hate?

Should we venerate Satan more than Yahweh who tried to deny mankind love?
What are you talking about!?!?! ...never seen anywhere in the bible that Satan gave anyone love.
I think you mix up Satan for Lucifer.

According to the muslims Satan is the "Accuser", and Lucifer was the "Light Bringer, Son of Dawn". In the bible Lucifer says he's equal to god, thereby he's cast down from the heavens with 1/3 of the angels.

.............or maybe I remember wrong.
To exercise free will and choose good instead of evil or love over hate, one must know what good and evil and love and hate are. Right?

God denied that knowledge and thus denied A & E free will and the knowledge of love and how to love.

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:10 am

osgart wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:19 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:20 pm
osgart wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:18 am


They had the presence of God, and the presence of Satan. As they experienced both of them, they already had sufficient understanding of good and evil. To eat from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil was redundant, and therefore a waste of an action.

God did not create them without minds, and hearts.
Your assumption is not following the story line so I doubt that we will get far.

How could they have knowledge and understanding of good and evil before consuming the knowledge of what good and evil from the knowledge tree?

Regards
DL
God made them with free will, and the capacity to understand, its implied. Of all the trees of the Garden you may freely eat, but for the knowledge of the tree of good and evil, for if you eat of that tree you shall surely die. A & E, made a choice, and their is no mention of programming to do it. It was a free choice, and God left them alone to make it.

You added all that programming stuff.
Some leeway is always required with myths.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Regards
DL

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by HexHammer » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:48 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:07 am
To exercise free will and choose good instead of evil or love over hate, one must know what good and evil and love and hate are. Right?

God denied that knowledge and thus denied A & E free will and the knowledge of love and how to love.
You have no idea what you are talking about, this is completely ignorant and circular reasoning.

Love is a compulsive behaviour, and is quite the opposite of free will. Ever heard women always complaining about constantly falling in love with the wrong guy? Heard about women that stays in abusive relationships? ..where the man smacks her?

With knowledge comes worries, that's why there's a saying "ignorance is bliss", here in Denmark we say "to live in happily ignorance".

Adam and Even knew about love, they had sex since god said that no one should be alone, so he actually first gave him Lilith which refused to submit to Adam, but saw herself as an equal and refused to lay under him, when having sex, so she fled.
Eve was then created.

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:16 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:48 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:07 am
To exercise free will and choose good instead of evil or love over hate, one must know what good and evil and love and hate are. Right?

God denied that knowledge and thus denied A & E free will and the knowledge of love and how to love.
You have no idea what you are talking about, this is completely ignorant and circular reasoning.

Love is a compulsive behaviour, and is quite the opposite of free will. Ever heard women always complaining about constantly falling in love with the wrong guy? Heard about women that stays in abusive relationships? ..where the man smacks her?

With knowledge comes worries, that's why there's a saying "ignorance is bliss", here in Denmark we say "to live in happily ignorance".

Adam and Even knew about love, they had sex since god said that no one should be alone, so he actually first gave him Lilith which refused to submit to Adam, but saw herself as an equal and refused to lay under him, when having sex, so she fled.
Eve was then created.
You have no idea what you are talking about

Regards
DL

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QuantumT
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by QuantumT » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:39 pm

1st: Satan and Lucifer are not necessarily the same. And none of them are the snake of Eden. Satan is a servant of God, who tests his subjects. Lucifers identity is unknown. And the snake was just a snake.

2nd: It was the knowledge to see right from wrong that the fruit gave Alice and Bob. Stan the snake was then punnished by crawling in the earths dust forever (we could assume it had legs in Eden).
Why was that knowledge so bad? Maybe because God is a douchebag!

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:30 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:39 pm
1st: Satan and Lucifer are not necessarily the same. And none of them are the snake of Eden. Satan is a servant of God, who tests his subjects. Lucifers identity is unknown. And the snake was just a snake.

2nd: It was the knowledge to see right from wrong that the fruit gave Alice and Bob. Stan the snake was then punnished by crawling in the earths dust forever (we could assume it had legs in Eden).
Why was that knowledge so bad? Maybe because God is a douchebag!
No argument against your last.

Regards
DL

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Greta
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by Greta » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:09 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:39 pm
Satan and Lucifer are not necessarily the same.
That's news to me. Which is the same or different?

Beelzebub
the devil
The Lord of Darkness (no, not Voldemort or Sauron :)
the antichrist
Mephistopheles
Diabolus
Hades
Abaddon/Apollyon

?

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QuantumT
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by QuantumT » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:23 pm

Greta wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:09 pm
That's news to me. Which is the same or different?
Beelzebub = Babylonian God
the devil = Satan, the entity that serves God by testing his subjects
The Lord of Darkness (no, not Voldemort or Sauron :) = Modern fiction
the antichrist = Christian mythology, not to be confused with Judaic
Mephistopheles = Faustian, modern name for the christian devil
Diabolus = Latin for devil
Hades +
Abaddon/Apollyon = Greek mythology
Last edited by QuantumT on Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

surreptitious57
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:37 pm

In Islam Satan or Iblis was not an an angel but a jinn which is not a demon but just a mysterious creature
In Christianity Satan was an angel who openly defied God by refusing to bow down when ordered to do so
Satan is also sometimes referred to as Lucifer who was originally the bringer of light in Roman mythology

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by QuantumT » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:47 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:37 pm
In Islam Satan or Iblis was not an an angel but a jinn which is not a demon but just a mysterious creature
In Christianity Satan was an angel who openly defied God by refusing to bow down when ordered to do so
Satan is also sometimes referred to as Lucifer who was originally the bringer of light in Roman mythology
I consider christian and islamic sources invalid, because they versify from the judaic origins.
In mythology only the origin is really valid. When it comes to the devil, Judaism is the only true source.
Last edited by QuantumT on Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

surreptitious57
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:49 pm

In Buddhism Yama is the Lord of the Underworld
In Greek mythology Hades is both the Underworld itself and its Lord
And Charon is the Keeper of the Gates and also one of Plutos moons

osgart
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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

Post by osgart » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:42 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:10 am
osgart wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:19 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:20 pm


Your assumption is not following the story line so I doubt that we will get far.

How could they have knowledge and understanding of good and evil before consuming the knowledge of what good and evil from the knowledge tree?

Regards
DL
God made them with free will, and the capacity to understand, its implied. Of all the trees of the Garden you may freely eat, but for the knowledge of the tree of good and evil, for if you eat of that tree you shall surely die. A & E, made a choice, and their is no mention of programming to do it. It was a free choice, and God left them alone to make it.

You added all that programming stuff.
Some leeway is always required with myths.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Regards
DL
The idea that their characters were put in them by God is yours alone. As they lived so to did they develope their own characters. God made them to develope their own characters as they saw fit. The only law God gave was to not choose to be evil enemies. But they did, and God allowed it.

Psalm 51:5 is absurd, a benevolent God , and a master creator would not make creatures to be born sinful. The Bible is incoherent myth for sure with many writers.

Aint it great though that in reality we choose our own makeup of character. Human nature isnt programmed. And human nature isnt programmed to sin.

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