Do Not Blame Muslims!

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Logik wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:35 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:24 am Note this is a philosophy forum.
The terms morality [good] versus evil has significant meanings.
I had stated the issue of is-ought is most critical in terms of the Philosophy of Morality.
Au contraire. If philosophers are involved chances are that the word "morality" and "evil" is either meaningless or so esoteric as to be useless. Surely a precise definition in Mathematics is better than an ambiguous definition in English?

Morality.png

Hospital B was immoral in 2001 and 2002. In 2003 it became the paragon, so hospital A became immoral.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:01 am I maintain setting up, adopting and maintaining the holistic system is critical.
The system could be along the principles of the Plan Do Check Act [PDCA] Model or some more sophisticated system model.
The contrast is where one do not operate on any system but rather on a haphazard basis.
Since both Hospital A and B are adopting the system and doing the best they can given their circumstances, there is no issues with their results.
That's implementation detail. It doesn't matter because - equifinality.
Whatever works in getting that blue line towards 0 as fast as possible.

That's morality.
You are using a bastardized definition of "morality".

My focus is not on implementation details.
My focus was the adoption of a vision and mission in setting and maintaining the holistic system.

Results and reaching 0 as fast as possible in not critical.
At present hospital B may be performing better.
In 20 years time both could have similar results.
Thereafter, 30, 50, 70 years, the results could alternate and mixed due to various reasons.
What is critical as I had stated is whether they are adopting the right is-ought model, and in this case they are.
Logik
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Logik »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am You are using a bastardized definition of "morality".
So be it. It's quantifiable. Any definition in English doesn't meet that bar.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am My focus is not on implementation details.
My focus was the adoption of a vision and mission in setting and maintaining the holistic system.
The mission has been the same since our ancestors could think for themselves. No harm.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am Results and reaching 0 as fast as possible in not critical.
Such ignorance is Truly Evil! Not immoral. EVIL!

Of course - that is just my opinion. You are an idiot.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am At present hospital may be performing better.
In 20 years time both could have similar results.
Remember that the checkered area under the curve always means "DEAD PEOPLE"! To say "reaching 0 as fast as possible in not critical." it to say "I am OK with people dying".
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am Thereafter the results could alternate and mixed due to various reasons.
What is critical as I had stated is whether they are adopting the right is-ought model, and in this case they are.
What is critical is what "objective morality" means! It's a moral standard! Not meeting the moral standard is immoral. Because DEAD PEOPLE! It's the blue block in the diagram. Who the leader is is not important, but the leader sets the standard!

In the extended diagram both hospital A and B are immoral From 2007 until 2011!
IMG-4125.jpg
IMG-4125.jpg (25.67 KiB) Viewed 3486 times
The point in all of this is that the "objective moral standard" can only be raised, but never lowered!
To preach continuous improvement while tolerating regression is apologetics.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Logik wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:49 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am You are using a bastardized definition of "morality".
So be it. It's quantifiable. Any definition in English doesn't meet that bar.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am My focus is not on implementation details.
My focus was the adoption of a vision and mission in setting and maintaining the holistic system.
The mission has been the same since our ancestors could think for themselves. No harm.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am Results and reaching 0 as fast as possible in not critical.
Such ignorance is truly evil!
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am At present hospital may be performing better.
In 20 years time both could have similar results.
Remember that the checkered area under the curve always means "DEAD PEOPLE"! To say "reaching 0 as fast as possible in not critical." it to say "I am OK with people dying".
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 am Thereafter the results could alternate and mixed due to various reasons.
What is critical as I had stated is whether they are adopting the right is-ought model, and in this case they are.
What is critical is what "objective morality" means! It's a moral standard! Not meeting the moral standard is immoral. Because DEAD PEOPLE! It's the blue block in the diagram. Who the leader is is not important, but the leader sets the standard!

In the extended diagram both hospital A and B are immoral From 2007 until 2011!

IMG-4125.jpg

The point in all of this is that the "objective moral standard" can only be raised, but never lowered!
To preach continuous improvement while tolerating regression is apologetics.
I maintain;
You are using a bastardized definition of "morality".

Improvements and results [your blue] could also arise from objectives that are evil.

What is critical is the right effective system and model re is-ought.
Logik
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Logik »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:59 am I maintain;
You are using a bastardized definition of "morality".
And I maintain that such ignorance is the epitome of Evil.

If you focus on the definitions (language/semantics) you have already dropped the ball.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:59 am Improvements and results [your blue] could also arise from objectives that are evil.
So evil intentions can produce moral outcomes?

Give me more of that "evil"!!!!
I will gladly take it over Kantian morality that tolerates intention over results.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:59 am What is critical is the right effective system and model re is-ought.
Which is the quantification of harm. So that we can drive it towards zero.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Logik wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:01 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:59 am I maintain;
You are using a bastardized definition of "morality".
And I maintain that such ignorance is the epitome of Evil.

If you focus on the definitions (language/semantics) you have already dropped the ball.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:59 am Improvements and results [your blue] could also arise from objectives that are evil.
So evil intentions can produce moral outcomes?

Give me more of that "evil"!!!!
I will gladly take it over Kantian morality.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:59 am What is critical is the right effective system and model re is-ought.
Which is the quantification of harm. So that we can drive it towards zero.
Quantification of harm, i.e.
  • Image


We need to strive to reduce the above number to Zero, i.e. stop the count from ever increasing each day or week.
Logik
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Logik »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:04 am Quantification of harm, i.e.
  • Image


We need to strive to reduce the above number to Zero, i.e. stop the count from ever increasing each day or week.
And if you wipe Islam off the face of the Earth and that number of terrorist attacks remains unchanged.

Your system sucks.

Also. You need to be tracking "total number of terrorist attacks" in parallel to "Islamic terrorist attacks".
Obviously - when there are no more Muslims there can be no more "Islamic terrorist attacks", but if the total number of "terrorist attacks" doesn't reduce.

Your system sucks.
Last edited by Logik on Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Logik wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:07 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:04 am Quantification of harm, i.e.
  • Image


We need to strive to reduce the above number to Zero, i.e. stop the count from ever increasing each day or week.
And if you wipe Islam off the face of the Earth and that number of terrorist attacks remains unchanged.

Your system sucks.
That number is specifically Islam-related terrorist attacks.

There will be other terrorist attacks which need to be addressed, but they will not be 'Islamic-related' at all!
Logik
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Logik »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:09 am That number is specifically Islam-related terrorist attacks.

There will be other terrorist attacks which need to be addressed, but they will not be 'Islamic-related' at all!
You suffer from a bad case of confirmation bias.

You need to be tracking "total number of terrorist attacks" as well as "Islamic terrorist attacks".
Obviously - when there are no more Muslims there can be no more "Islamic terrorist attacks", but if the total number of "terrorist attacks" is not reduced in response to your intervention then all you have done is moved numbers from one column to another.

If "Islamic terrorist attacks" are substituted by "Unicorn Freedom Fighter" attacks.

Your system sucks. It's evidence that you have mis-identified the root cause.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Logik wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:11 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:09 am That number is specifically Islam-related terrorist attacks.

There will be other terrorist attacks which need to be addressed, but they will not be 'Islamic-related' at all!
You suffer from a bad case of confirmation bias.

You need to be tracking "total number of terrorist attacks" as well as "Islamic terrorist attacks".
Obviously - when there are no more Muslims there can be no more "Islamic terrorist attacks", but if the total number of "terrorist attacks" is not reduced in response to your intervention then all you have done is moved numbers from one column to another.

If "Islamic terrorist attacks" are substituted by "Unicorn Freedom Fighter" attacks.

Your system sucks. It's evidence that you have mis-identified the root cause.
Note my point here on why I focus on only one small part of the whole range of evil;

viewtopic.php?p=378722#p378722
I believe ALL evil acts and violence in the World must be addressed and resolved ASAP. I have discussed this generally.

To be effective in problem solving, one need to break down whatever the problem, in this case evil, into its smallest units and search for various patterns, e.g. the fishbone technique.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_diagram

One person cannot address ALL the evil potential of the World from all sources.

Whilst not a Buddhist, I have adopted one of the Boddhisattva's vow re extending empathy and compassion to all living persons and things. Thus when one see so much sufferings, as a concern citizen of humanity one must strive to contribute in the most effective way possible.

This is why the best I can do is to focus on what I am capable to contribute, i.e. religious-related evil. I have competent knowledge in Philosophy of Evil plus Philosophy of Religion. This is why I am 'localizing' my effort re evil to 'religion' and not in areas like politics, etc. which I do not have competence.
Logik
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Logik »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:16 am
Logik wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:11 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:09 am That number is specifically Islam-related terrorist attacks.

There will be other terrorist attacks which need to be addressed, but they will not be 'Islamic-related' at all!
You suffer from a bad case of confirmation bias.

You need to be tracking "total number of terrorist attacks" as well as "Islamic terrorist attacks".
Obviously - when there are no more Muslims there can be no more "Islamic terrorist attacks", but if the total number of "terrorist attacks" is not reduced in response to your intervention then all you have done is moved numbers from one column to another.

If "Islamic terrorist attacks" are substituted by "Unicorn Freedom Fighter" attacks.

Your system sucks. It's evidence that you have mis-identified the root cause.
Note my point here on why I focus on only one small part of the whole range of evil;

viewtopic.php?p=378722#p378722
I believe ALL evil acts and violence in the World must be addressed and resolved ASAP. I have discussed this generally.

To be effective in problem solving, one need to break down whatever the problem, in this case evil, into its smallest units and search for various patterns, e.g. the fishbone technique.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_diagram

One person cannot address ALL the evil potential of the World from all sources.

Whilst not a Buddhist, I have adopted one of the Boddhisattva's vow re extending empathy and compassion to all living persons and things. Thus when one see so much sufferings, as a concern citizen of humanity one must strive to contribute in the most effective way possible.

This is why the best I can do is to focus on what I am capable to contribute, i.e. religious-related evil. I have competent knowledge in Philosophy of Evil plus Philosophy of Religion. This is why I am 'localizing' my effort re evil to 'religion' and not in areas like politics, etc. which I do not have competence.
The point is lost on you.

TOTAL TERRRORIST ATTACKS = ISLAMIC-TERRORIST ATTACKS + OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS.

Lets thumb-suck some numbers.

TOTAL TERRORIST ATTACKS = 100000
ISLAMIC-TERRORIST ATTACKS = 34258
OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS = 100000 - 34258 = 65715

You are currently speculating based on the evidence in front of you (you don't actually know) that Islamic ideology is incidental (causal) NOT coincidental in Islamic Terrorist attacks. But there is a non-zero probability that you have mis-identified the root cause.

So IF your intervention results in "ISLAMIC-TERRORIST ATTACKS" going from 34258 to 5000, but TOTAL TERRORIST ATTACKS remains at 100000.

You've achieved nothing! The same number of terrorist attacks are happening - they are just not done under the banner of Islam anymore.

If that were to happen that would be evidence that you were wrong about Islam being a problem.
If that were to happen that would be evidence that Islam was coincidental, not incidental and that you were wrong all along.

I trust at that point you will need to resort to some sort of apologetics as to "having good intentions" for having tripped over a category error and confirmation bias.
Veritas Aequitas
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Logik wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:21 am https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg
The point is lost on you.

TOTAL TERRRORIST ATTACKS = ISLAMIC-TERRORIST ATTACKS + OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS.

Lets thumb-suck some numbers.

TOTAL TERRORIST ATTACKS = 100000
ISLAMIC-TERRORIST ATTACKS = 34258
OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS = 100000 - 34258 = 65715

You are currently speculating based on the evidence in front of you (you don't actually know) that Islamic ideology is incidental (causal) NOT coincidental in Islamic Terrorist attacks. But there is a non-zero probability that you have mis-identified the root cause.

So IF your intervention results in "ISLAMIC-TERRORIST ATTACKS" going from 34258 to 5000, but TOTAL TERRORIST ATTACKS remains at 100000.

You've changed nothing! The same number of terrorist attacks are happening - they are just not done under the banner of Islam anymore.

If that were to happen that would be evidence that you were wrong about Islam being a problem.
If that were to happen that would be evidence that Islam was coincidental, not incidental and that you were wrong all along.

I trust at that point you will need to resort to some sort of apologetics as to "having good intentions".
Note Islamist-related terrorist attacks are very specific with the fact that those terrorists quote directly or indirectly to the Quran and commands of Allah.
If there is no Islam there is no chance it will be based on Islam at all.

My point;
Say we make the following projections based on current trend, i.e.
1. Islam-Quranic based terrorist attacks in next 20 years = 50,000.
2. Non-Islam related terrorist attacks in next 20 years = 10,000.
3. Total terrorists attacks = 60,000

If Islam is no more, then there will only be 10,000 attacks in 20 years.
Total = 10,000 attacks.

Islam-Quranic based terrorist attacks are triggered by verses in the Quran, therefore no Islam mean no Islamic-Quranic based terrorist attacks.

The Possibility of errors in this stats;
ISLAMIC-TERRORIST ATTACKS = 34258
Those who compiled the above stats have made sure the attacks are linked to Islam and the Quran.
Even if there are marginal cases or errors due to oversight, there will not be many, perhaps 1%, thus not significant.
Logik
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Logik »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:44 am Say we make the following projections based on current trend, i.e.
1. Islam-Quranic based terrorist attacks in next 20 years = 50,000.
2. Non-Islam related terrorist attacks in next 20 years = 10,000.
3. Total terrorists attacks = 60,000

If Islam is no more, then there will only be 10,000 attacks in 20 years.
Total = 10,000 attacks.
Damn lies and statistics.

That is the projected outcome only IF Islam is incidental/causal. IF you are right.

IF you are wrong and Islam is only coincidental the total will remain at 60000.
Islam-Quranic terrorist attacks will be 0 (because you have wiped out all Islam/Muslims) and "Non-islam related terrorist attacks" will be 60000.

Category error!
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Logik wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:46 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:44 am Say we make the following projections based on current trend, i.e.
1. Islam-Quranic based terrorist attacks in next 20 years = 50,000.
2. Non-Islam related terrorist attacks in next 20 years = 10,000.
3. Total terrorists attacks = 60,000

If Islam is no more, then there will only be 10,000 attacks in 20 years.
Total = 10,000 attacks.
Damn lies and statistics.

That is the projected outcome only IF Islam is incidental. IF you are right.

IF you are wrong and Islam is only coincidental the total will remain at 60000.
Islam-Quranic terrorist attacks will be 0 and "Non-islam related terrorist attacks" will be 60000.

Category error!
Problem is you are not educating your brain/mind.

Note this example;

In Bin Laden's 'Letter to America' on why he attacked the US, he quoted numerous Quranic verses to justify his actions;
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/ ... heobserver
There are many other evidence of terrorists quoting verses from the Quran to support and justify their attacks.

It is common to hear the phrase "Allahu Akbar" before Muslims attack non-Muslims.

The incentives for Muslims to attack non-Muslims as a divine duty is a reward of eternal life in Paradise with 72 virgins. If there is no such offer then no one will risk to attack and kill on that basis.

As such, without Islam [offer of eternal life and virgins] the total number of attacks will be 10,000.
Logik
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Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Logik »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:54 am Problem is you are not educating your brain/mind.
And your problem is hasty generalization.

If you remove Islam and terrorist attacks remain unchanged the evidence will speaks for itself.

The rest is you trying to rationalize your position.
Veritas Aequitas
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Do Not Blame Muslims!

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Logik wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:00 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:54 am Problem is you are not educating your brain/mind.
And your problem is hasty generalization.

If you remove Islam and terrorist attacks remain unchanged the evidence will speaks for itself.

The rest is you trying to rationalize your position.
I am speaking based on objective facts.
I have provided you the factual evidences and the supporting reasons.
Note, it is in the Quran, Muslims who die for their religion in killing of infidels non-Muslims will receive a 10 fold reward in comparison other good deeds.
You have to read the Quran thoroughly to understand what I am insisting on.
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