Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dalek Prime
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dalek Prime »

Greta, to paraphrase Shakespeare, we have come to bury Hitler, not to praise him. I don't understand either why some admire dictators so much. They are just big children who can throw their weight around, and get their way, whilst democratic leaders must work harder to accomplish things through consensus. Which makes them look weak in some views, but actually displays their strengths by overcoming obstacles that autocrats don't have.

Trump is autocratic. Not a consensus builder.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Dalek Prime wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:39 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:35 pm
Dubious wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:13 pm No such thing as the most evil person ever.
Exactly. Humans are a lot more complex (or commonplace) than simply 'evil' or 'good'. There are any number of people around who live ordinary lives who would be just as bad, given enough power.
That's the thing I've wondered before, veg. If a person is 'evil', but doesn't act on it, are they still 'evil'? There is a psychiatrist who discovered that his brain scan matches that of a psychopath. But he knows this, and doesn't act on it.

But yes, we all have potential in either direction on a scale.
'Psychopathic' only means a person isn't particularly empathetic, or caring of others' feelings. It doesn't necessarily mean 'sadistic and murderous'. Those kinds of psychopath are generally sexual deviants as well.
Totalitarian leaders employ the real sadists and murderers to do their dirty work. That is exactly what the Nazis did. The Stormtroopers were literally criminal thugs--and deliberately so.
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda »

Nick, that's a super essay, which you provided a link to, The Great Chain of Being.


I quote from it:
The ancient and medieval view that all creation was ordered into a great universal hierarchy greatly informed Christian theology for over a thousand years. This can be seen in the ingenious solution some theologians adopted to address the problem of evil (sometimes called theodicy). Plainly stated, the problem of evil in Christian theology becomes apparent in the following syllogism:

Major Premise: God created everything that exists.

Minor Premise: Evil exists.

Therefore, God is the source of evil.

If the major and minor premises are true, the conclusion is logically inescapable. This conclusion, however, is highly undesirable. Indeed, Christianity maintains that there is but one perfect God who cannot be the source of evil or sinful imperfection. So where does evil come from? There are a few solutions to this problem. One is to argue that there must be two creators. One is responsible for all that is good and the other for all that is evil. This lets the good creator off the hook, but it raises another problem. If there are two creators, then the good god cannot be considered all-powerful. In other words, this god does not have power over everything that happens.


(I add " Augustine's solution is as follows")
A second route around the problem of evil is to alter the minor premise. What if evil is not a thing? What if it does not exist? Perhaps it is merely the absence of good. This proves a more acceptable solution for some Christians, for it maintains the logic of a single, all-powerful and perfect God. Even so, it does change our conception of sin (i.e., when we choose to do evil). Most people assume sinful people have chosen an evil course over good one, but what are they choosing when they sin if there is no such thing as evil
I conclude that there is a creator god comparable to Spinoza's "God is Nature" Deus sive Natura. Nature however is not the same as that which human reason can describe, because human nature is not capable of perfect objectivity. We now know that physics shows that subatomic particles are influenced by who observes them.

Augustine's claim that God is identical with good appeals to me although the claim implies for modern people that good is subjective too and therefore that some ideologies, that's to say the ones I favour, are better than others.

Nick, your claim that The Great Chain of Being is like a food chain is wrong because a food chain is bottom-upwards whereas the Great Chain of Being is top-downwards and depends from the authority at the top. I deliberately say " depends" and Dennett described the theists' God as a "sky hook".

The |Great Chain of Being illustrates why the medievals were living within an age of faith.
seeds
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by seeds »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:20 pm I can respect your beliefs but can you respect mine?
I respect your right to hold whatever beliefs you so desire, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them (and I’m sure the feeling is mutual).

And seeing how we are both posting our beliefs on a world accessible philosophy forum, then we must both be prepared to have them challenged.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:20 pm I know why secularists must hate them since to be open to what the conscious messengers from the past introduced into the world concerning human "being" threatens the dominance of secularism and its earthly gods and goddesses.
Secularists do the best they can with what their own personal experiences have shown them. And if you possessed the slightest bit of wisdom, then you would be more understanding of their situation and cut them some slack.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:20 pm What you suggest doesn't answer my questions as far as the meaning and purpose of the universe and man within it....
Nick, I have tried on several occasions to answer your questions regarding the meaning and purpose of the universe, but you simply refuse to entertain anything that does not resonate with what you already believe.

Nevertheless, I’ll keep trying.

(IMO) the “purpose” of the universe (aside from its utter beauty) is to function as the “womb-like” physiological mechanism through-which the living Soul of the universe (God) literally replicates itself by conceiving its offspring (the human soul) within itself.

Easy-peasy!

And best of all, it is an “as above, so below” concept wherein the ultimate truth of reality can be perceived as having an almost mammalian-like “naturalness” that extends to the highest levels of existence.

As I have suggested in prior conversations with you, what could be more natural than God being “pregnant” with us?
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:20 pm How does Socrates' description of the inner man and outer man relate to the being of Hitler? Can you supply a logical answer as to why human being is simultaneously capable of both the greatest atrocities and the greatest compassion? How can such a being be capable of the conscious destiny you describe?
The destiny I describe is possible because the transformation from our present (embryonic) level of being to that of our transcendent level of being (post death) will be so extreme that it will make all of our earthly circumstances seem like nothing more than the metaphorical equivalent of “amniotic water” that will run down God’s leg when the “placenta” breaks.

It’s all there in the metaphor, Nick.

In other words, when it comes to the rightness or wrongness of our decisions and actions on earth, there is only so much that can be expected of a “barely-conscious” fetus, floating around in the darkness of its mother’s womb...

Image

The ultimate point is that you, and me, and humans like Hitler will be so utterly “changed” in comparison to what we are now...

(as in birthed and awakened into our true and eternal form, or, if you prefer, no longer under the negative and corrupting influence of the shadows in Plato’s cave)

...that none of what you are complaining about will matter in the slightest.
_______
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda

The Great Chain of Being initiates with the Source beyond the limits of time and space and through a process not described in the essay involutes according to universal laws into the levels of reality described in the essay. So we can see why it must be rejected by the philosophy of secularism which denies this chain of being and limits humanity to what Plato described as the “walking tomb”
Humanity: For medieval and Renaissance thinkers, humans occupied a unique position on the Chain of Being. They straddled the world of spiritual beings and the world of physical creation. Humans were thought to possess divine powers such as reason, love, and imagination. Like angels, they were spiritual beings, but unlike their souls were "knotted" to a physical body. Plato spoke in the Phaedrus about the body was a "walking tomb." Like animals human beings are subject to passions and sensations--pain, hunger, thirst, and sexual desire. Consequently, humans had a very difficult time in balancing the divine and the animalistic parts of their nature. An angel, for example, was only capable of intellectual sin such as pride (as evidenced by Lucifer's fall from heaven in Christian belief). Humans, however, were capable of both intellectual sin and physical sins such as lust and gluttony if they let their animal appetites overrule their divine reason. Humans also possessed sensory attributes: sight, touch, taste, hearing, and smell. Unlike angels, however, their sensory attributes were limited by physical organs. (They could only know things they could discern through the five senses.) The human primate was the King.
Secularism cannot comprehend Man’s dual nature as qualities of being initiating from a Source which for it doesn’t exist. Reconciling our dual nature for secularism is just programming into doing this or that. If you just consider the reality of genocides, this programming becomes expressions of our dual nature and the frustrations associated with it leading to mixed results.
If the major and minor premises are true, the conclusion is logically inescapable. This conclusion, however, is highly undesirable. Indeed, Christianity maintains that there is but one perfect God who cannot be the source of evil or sinful imperfection. So where does evil come from? There are a few solutions to this problem. One is to argue that there must be two creators. One is responsible for all that is good and the other for all that is evil. This lets the good creator off the hook, but it raises another problem. If there are two creators, then the good god cannot be considered all-powerful. In other words, this god does not have power over everything that happens.
Why must God be a thing separate from creation? What if God is NOW and creation is the process of existence taking place within NOW? NOW is not bounded by the limitations of time and space yet creation is.

In Christianity there is God beyond creation and LORD God within creation. We can believe in subjective descriptions of evil but what is objective evil and does it exist?

God cannot create himself. There cannot be two gods. God is ONE. There is only one ONE. So whatever is created to serve a purpose must include imperfection which we can experience the natural results of and call it evil. The value and purpose of the universe is in its process while for us, we define value in accordance with results.

In society in previous times people respected the axiom: “it’s not whether you win or lose that but how you play the game that counts.” Now this is considered naïve and the popular belief is “the ends justify the means.” It is no wonder that the idea of a universal process is rejected and ridiculed. Evil for us is defined in terms of results. But for the being of Man, evil is defined by what prevents Man’s gradual conscious evolution into a higher quality of being along the vertical great Chain of Being.
Augustine's claim that God is identical with good appeals to me although the claim implies for modern people that good is subjective too and therefore that some ideologies, that's to say the ones I favour, are better than others.
But what is objective good? If Plato’s forms are expression of the Good, what is the Good independent of Man’s existence? The expression of the Good into creation by means of the cyclical complimentary processes is what makes the necessity of creation possible. Fof Man, whatever serves his conscious evolution into a higher quality of being is objectively “good” What prevents it is objectively evil
Nick, your claim that The Great Chain of Being is like a food chain is wrong because a food chain is bottom-upwards whereas the Great Chain of Being is top-downwards and depends from the authority at the top. I deliberately say " depends" and Dennett described the theists' God as a "sky hook".
As I see it the Great chain of Being is like a ladder in which all the steps are necessary. Without all the steps the ladder is meaningless. It is the same with the Great Chain of being. As a functioning living machine feeding on itself serving the universal processes of evolution and involution, all its levels are connected and necessary
The |Great Chain of Being illustrates why the medievals were living within an age of faith.
I don’t know what you mean by “faith?” Do you mean faith IN Christ or the faith OF Christ? For me the faith OF Christ is the human attribute which enables us to inwardly perceive and sustain the vertical experience of the Great chain of being or levels of reality even though our senses cannot. Our senses are limited to duality and are third force blind.
The |Great Chain of Being illustrates why the medievals were living within an age of faith.
The age of reason fixated on details has largely atrophied the human potential for the faith OF Christ or the inner experience of the verticality of the Great chain of Being consciously connecting levels of reality and leading to ONE. Some call this loss progress. Is it really?
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta »

What if God is NOW and creation is the process of existence taking place within NOW? NOW is not bounded by the limitations of time and space yet creation is.

In Christianity there is God beyond creation and LORD God within creation. We can believe in subjective descriptions of evil but what is objective evil and does it exist?

God cannot create himself. There cannot be two gods. God is ONE. There is only one ONE.
This ineffable, non anthropomorphic God of now is beyond time and identity - but not gender. Somehow this non anthropomorphic, unbifurcated entity is unambiguously male.

To see "He' in a person's writings is to know that, no matter what sophistry is attempted in explaining the deity, the writer truly can only conceive of God as a large male spirit. The embarrassment at being duped by such an obviously childish notion leads people to devise all manner of raationalisations to cover for their ingrained superstitious ideations.

The pronoun gives it away - our words are always overshadowed by our stances.

Claiming that gendering God is "traditional" does not wash either. If veracity was even a little bit important to them then they would use the word "It", such as we might refer to godlike entities in nature like black holes. However, that would be unthinkable because, for most people, God can only be a "He" - basically a dominant heterosexual alpha male elder - and that is ridiculous in this day and age.
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:23 am
What if God is NOW and creation is the process of existence taking place within NOW? NOW is not bounded by the limitations of time and space yet creation is.

In Christianity there is God beyond creation and LORD God within creation. We can believe in subjective descriptions of evil but what is objective evil and does it exist?

God cannot create himself. There cannot be two gods. God is ONE. There is only one ONE.
This ineffable, non anthropomorphic God of now is beyond time and identity - but not gender. Somehow this non anthropomorphic, unbifurcated entity is unambiguously male.


To see "He' in a person's writings is to know that, no matter what sophistry is attempted in explaining the deity, the writer truly can only conceive of God as a large male spirit. The embarrassment at being duped by such an obviously childish notion leads people to devise all manner of raationalisations to cover for their ingrained superstitious ideations.

The pronoun gives it away - our words are always overshadowed by our stances.

Claiming that gendering God is "traditional" does not wash either. If veracity was even a little bit important to them then they would use the word "It", such as we might refer to godlike entities in nature like black holes. However, that would be unthinkable because, for most people, God can only be a "He" - basically a dominant heterosexual alpha male elder - and that is ridiculous in this day and age.
The usual secular ignorance. Not even open to the use of pronouns in a biblical or esoteric perspective. That is why the young must be spiritually killed before they begin to understand too much. They may begin to rock the boat which simply cannot be tolerated. Pronouns refer to objective function but it isn't a politically correct observation. From the Kybalion
CHAPTER XIII
GENDER
"Gender is in everything; everything has its Masculine
and Feminine Principles; Gender manifests on all
planes."--The Kybalion.

The great Seventh Hermetic Principle--the Principle of Gender--embodies the truth that there is Gender manifested in everything--that the Masculine and Feminine principles are ever present and active in all phases of phenomena, on each and every plane of life. At this point we think it well to call your attention to the fact that Gender, in its Hermetic sense, and Sex in the ordinarily accepted use of the term, are not the same.

The word "Gender" is derived from the Latin root meaning "to beget; to procreate; to generate; to create; to produce." A moment's consideration will show you that the word has a much broader and more general meaning than the term "Sex," the latter referring to the physical distinctions between male and female living things. Sex is merely a manifestation of Gender on a certain plane of the Great Physical Plane--the plane of organic life. We wish to impress this distinction upon your minds, for the reason that certain writers, who have acquired a smattering of the Hermetic Philosophy, have sought to identify this Seventh Hermetic Principle with wild and fanciful, and often reprehensible, theories and teachings regarding Sex.
By definition God is the unity of the Trinity; the genders and their reconciling force. Referring to God as He refers to the Active force of our Source But this is offensive to the PC secular goal of gender equality. The human soul is active in terms of the world and passive in relation to the Source. But even now there are complete lunatics striving to take pronouns out of the Bible for the sake of secular supremacy.

NOT A CLUE.
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dubious »

Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:23 am However, that would be unthinkable because, for most people, God can only be a "He" - basically a dominant heterosexual alpha male elder - and that is ridiculous in this day and age.
Any presumption of god in this day and age is itself ridiculous regardless of how such an entity is qualified. Who cares if one talks about a he, she or it since gender defining an absolute Nothing must itself amount to nothing. Also, since god was created by patriarchs it's obvious it would have to be a HE. If a matriarchy had been in charge god would be a SHE.

Relative to god, all three personal pronouns are equal to each other in denoting NOTHING; who care's which one is chosen to describe a nonentity!
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Seeds
(IMO) the “purpose” of the universe (aside from its utter beauty) is to function as the “womb-like” physiological mechanism through-which the living Soul of the universe (God) literally replicates itself by conceiving its offspring (the human soul) within itself.
i agree with you as far as sons of God being in the image of God as far as the inner unity of the three elemental forces at a lower quality. However man on earth is a plurality lacking inner unity.

In 100 years Hitler Stalin, you and I will be long dead. I don't see how we end up being the results of God replicating itself. What makes you think you are capable of the conscious quality necessary for a son of God or being in the image of God? Why is the universe necessary to act as a womb? Is what goes on in the Alpha Centauri star system necessary for Hitler to become a son of God?
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Dubious wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:32 am
Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:23 am However, that would be unthinkable because, for most people, God can only be a "He" - basically a dominant heterosexual alpha male elder - and that is ridiculous in this day and age.
Any presumption of god in this day and age is itself ridiculous regardless of how such an entity is qualified. Who cares if one talks about a he, she or it since gender defining an absolute Nothing must itself amount to nothing. Also, since god was created by patriarchs it's obvious it would have to be a HE. If a matriarchy had been in charge god would be a SHE.

Relative to god, all three personal pronouns are equal to each other in denoting NOTHING; who care's which one is chosen to describe a nonentity!
The Great Beast smiles its approval.
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta »

To see "He' in a person's writings is to know that, no matter what sophistry is attempted in explaining the deity, the writer truly can only conceive of God as a large male spirit. The embarrassment at being duped by such an obviously childish notion leads people to devise all manner of raationalisations to cover for their ingrained superstitious ideations.

The pronoun gives it away - our words are always overshadowed by our stances.

Claiming that gendering God is "traditional" does not wash either. If veracity was even a little bit important to them then they would use the word "It", such as we might refer to godlike entities in nature like black holes. However, that would be unthinkable because, for most people, God can only be a "He" - basically a dominant heterosexual alpha male elder - and that is ridiculous in this day and age.
Nick_A wrote:The usual secular ignorance. Not even open to the use of pronouns in a biblical or esoteric perspective.
The usual theistic bluster in place of reasoned arguments. I wonder if you'll ever tire of it and get real?

If we put aside your hysterical babbling about "spirit killing" and feeble post hoc rationalisations about "active principle" it is important to reject these patriarchal assumptions about posited deities.

Why? (Nick you might want to tune out here because it gets a little science-y and I know you don't like science). It's due to feedback. Thoughts influence language and language influences thought. Check the literature, that's it works. Thus, the continued use of "He" will condition people to anthropomorphise.

This anthropomorphism presents a serious social problem because, when God is essentially a large disembodied man, then "He" will take sides. Coincidentally, this spirit man creator always seems to take the side of any given theist while ironically being against the others. Logic?

Thus Hitler will be fine (aside from the small matter of death). From memory you said he would disappear into the environment, essentially become "food", which actually makes sense. Hitler lived a life - a journey of being on the planet - as we all, do but his role was more tortured and destructive than most. If anything, we can be grateful not to be dealt the cards that he was given in life.
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Lacewing »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:54 am The Great Beast smiles its approval.
Melodramatic boasting of insight into your own creation.
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta »

Dubious wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:32 am
Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:23 am However, that would be unthinkable because, for most people, God can only be a "He" - basically a dominant heterosexual alpha male elder - and that is ridiculous in this day and age.
Any presumption of god in this day and age is itself ridiculous regardless of how such an entity is qualified. Who cares if one talks about a he, she or it since gender defining an absolute Nothing must itself amount to nothing. Also, since god was created by patriarchs it's obvious it would have to be a HE. If a matriarchy had been in charge god would be a SHE.

Relative to god, all three personal pronouns are equal to each other in denoting NOTHING; who cares which one is chosen to describe a nonentity!
You have presented an opinion, Dubs. Yeah, maybe but, like theists, you lack proof even if your preferred evidence is more grounded.

Maybe reality is stranger than we imagine and people really do perceive something real in their spiritual travels? Maybe people, lacking the language to express what they feel, interpret through the lens of culture, rendering their perceptions ostensibly ridiculous?

Given how little we know about the nature of reality, I won't discount the possibility of larger, containing conscious systems that either currently exist or are in the process of emergence (they won't be male or female, though!).

The universe is 13.8b years old. Given the prior changes it's illogical to believe that its current state will continue for the next 13.8b years. How will it change? In ways that are utterly beyond our capacity to comprehend or predict. Thus it's premature to make a decision about the ultimate nature of reality based on the vastly insufficient evidence we have today.
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta
Why? (Nick you might want to tune out here because it gets a little science-y and I know you don't like science). It's due to feedback. Thoughts influence language and language influences thought. Check the literature, that's it works. Thus, the continued use of "He" will condition people to anthropomorphise.
You seek to support removing the purpose of philosophy from philosophy forums. If you had your way you would have it formally removed from eductional institutions and have it replaced by PC secular dogma

Plato defined Man as a being in search of meaning and philosophy as the love of wisdom.

Meaning for you is what the Great Beast of secularism dictates and wisdom is the blind faith in the advocates of the Great beast to lead you through the trials of life as a human being.

This is the modern way and you are in the majority. I still support philosophy which stimulates both the mind and heart to open to and remember what the essence of humanity is called to and is capable of.
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by gaffo »

Skip wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:37 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:49 am [All by himself?]
of course!

no Hitler, no invasion of Poland, no ww2.
I understood he had some other guys do that - like an army or something?
yes an army he constituted from 1932 to sept2 1939.

do you have a valid point? do you even know history for that matter?


the Japs would still be illegally invading China
Cite three legal invasions, just we can get a bearing on what you mean.
[/quote]

ok

June of 1944 of Normandy France.

UN/Australian forces in East Timor in 2000

bet 1943-45 of Philipines/Pillou(sp)/IwoJma(sp)/Marshall Islands/Wake Island/New Guinea/Guadalcanal.
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