Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Mike Strand
Posts: 406
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:54 am
Location: USA

Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Mike Strand » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:20 pm

Dubious wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:37 am
Greta wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:26 am
One possibility that entities with roughly the same attributes as God is yet to evolve in the future, in which case belief would stem from an intuitive projection, an extension of the human capacity to guesstimate the future, eg. we know without tasting that a sardine flavoured ice cream would not be palatable (Dan Gilbert).
For all we know such like entities could already be here. Whether us guesstimating ourselves into the future or that which may already have arrived, such "attributes" of god is a very different conception from its theistic model which invariably defaults to a personal one-on-one experience containing a "soul" inflection.

That which needs to evolve to attain this god-like stature starts from the opposite direction in the sense of having to accumulate attributes which a God has always possessed forever and onward dividing Itself cyclically into the creation and destruction routine.
I've been away from the forum on vacation since Jul. 12 -- lots of activity in this thread since then!

This idea of evolution into entities with God's attributes is a precept of the Mormon Church: "As Man is, God once was; as God is, Man may become." This is a consequence of their ideas on "eternal progression" of a human soul.

Such ideas are pursued extensively and in great detail in "The Urantia Book", a large volume written in the 1950s.
Here's a link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:04 am

Mike Strand wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:20 pm
Dubious wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:37 am
Greta wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:26 am
One possibility that entities with roughly the same attributes as God is yet to evolve in the future, in which case belief would stem from an intuitive projection, an extension of the human capacity to guesstimate the future, eg. we know without tasting that a sardine flavoured ice cream would not be palatable (Dan Gilbert).
For all we know such like entities could already be here. Whether us guesstimating ourselves into the future or that which may already have arrived, such "attributes" of god is a very different conception from its theistic model which invariably defaults to a personal one-on-one experience containing a "soul" inflection.

That which needs to evolve to attain this god-like stature starts from the opposite direction in the sense of having to accumulate attributes which a God has always possessed forever and onward dividing Itself cyclically into the creation and destruction routine.
I've been away from the forum on vacation since Jul. 12 -- lots of activity in this thread since then!

This idea of evolution into entities with God's attributes is a precept of the Mormon Church: "As Man is, God once was; as God is, Man may become." This is a consequence of their ideas on "eternal progression" of a human soul.

Such ideas are pursued extensively and in great detail in "The Urantia Book", a large volume written in the 1950s.
Here's a link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book
"Lots of activity" :lol: Much heat, not much light. Froth and bubble.

I started on the Urantia Book but I stopped as it was referencing Yogananda so heavily, and I have read it all before. In younger, more idealistic days, I was a big fan of the famous tome, Autobiography of a Yogi, and read it rapturously multiple times. I felt like I was being told the truth from up on high - how rare to be given this information from an actual yogi!

I am a tad less impressionable today. In hindsight, the texts heap supposition upon supposition to the point where the only logical response I can give is, "Well, maybe ...".

Mike Strand
Posts: 406
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:54 am
Location: USA

Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Mike Strand » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:58 am

Greta wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:04 am
started on the Urantia Book but I stopped as it was referencing Yogananda so heavily, and I have read it all before. In younger, more idealistic days, I was a big fan of the famous tome, Autobiography of a Yogi, and read it rapturously multiple times. I felt like I was being told the truth from up on high - how rare to be given this information from an actual yogi!

I am a tad less impressionable today. In hindsight, the texts heap supposition upon supposition to the point where the only logical response I can give is, "Well, maybe ...".
I, too, looked into the Urantia Book and also found it to be too reliant upon a host of imaginative but doubtful assumptions. A creative writer is able to concoct interesting explanations of what is still mysterious about the universe and existence. This is not to say, however, that some scenarios (as in science fiction) may be realized some day.
Last edited by Mike Strand on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mike Strand
Posts: 406
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:54 am
Location: USA

Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Mike Strand » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:06 am

It appears that secularism versus religion has been debated in this thread, but each of these thought systems may have a place in our lives. I take a secular approach when my car breaks down and I look for it to be fixed -- my prayers and curses don’t seem to help. So I take it to a mechanic. But when a friend or close relative who has religious faith is dying and despairing, I may want to share with that person the hope of going to a better place.

Nick_A
Posts: 3878
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:09 am

So what have we learned? We’ve learned that the power and influence of secularism is sustained through denial and complaint. Denial is the refusal to see the world as it is inviting complaints against all who through the practice of philosophy and the essence of religion are willing to sacrifice the joys of denial and self satisfaction for the experience of objetive human meaning and purpose..

The trouble is that the reliance on dualism expressed through denial assures that on a large scale nothing will change other than technology. Humanity remains the same on the inside producing the same cyclical results.

Plato understood this and a seeker of truth open to the comparison of the five regimes he describes can only marvel that there have been people in the past which such a quality of reason. It makes a person wonder what is lost through the joys of denial and complaints.

To make matters easier for me I’ll just post from Wiki. Plato describes the descent of the quality of society. Of course the Philosopher king would never be accepted in the modern world. The modern world leading to rule by the tyrant must be the inevitable result of complaints and denial

1.
Aristocracy is the form of government (politeia) advocated in Plato's Republic. This regime is ruled by a philosopher king, and thus is grounded on wisdom and reason. The aristocratic state, and the man whose nature corresponds to it, are the objects of Plato's analyses throughout much of The Republic's books, as opposed to the other four types of states/men, that are studied primarily in Book VIII.............
2. You can read how Aristocracy degenerates into Timocracy through the lessening of the quality of human being

3.
The lessening of quality leads to Oligarchy. Plato defines oligarchy as a system of government which distinguishes between the rich and the poor, making out of the former its administrators.
An oligarchy is originated by extending tendencies already evident in a timocracy. In contrast to Platonic aristocrats, timocrats are allowed by their constitution to own property and thus to both accumulate and waste money. Because of the pleasures derived therefrom, money eventually is prized over virtue, and the leaders of the state seek to alter the law to give way and accommodate to the materialistic lust of its citizens. As a result of this new found appreciation for money, the governors rework the constitution yet again to restrict political power to the rich only. That is how a timocracy becomes an oligarchy.
4. This where America is now. It is creating an oligarchy and a growing division between the haves and the have nots
Oligarchy then degenerates into democracy where freedom is the supreme good but freedom is also slavery. In democracy, the lower class grows bigger and bigger. The poor become the winners. People are free to do what they want and live how they want. People can even break the law if they so choose. This appears to be very similar to anarchy.
Plato uses the "democratic man" to represent democracy. The democratic man is the son of the oligarchic man. Unlike his father, the democratic man is consumed with unnecessary desires. Plato describes necessary desires as desires that we have out of instinct or desires that we have in order to survive. Unnecessary desires are desires we can teach ourselves to resist such as the desire for riches. The democratic man takes great interest in all the things he can buy with his money. He does whatever he wants whenever he wants to do it. His life has no order or priority.
We see this now in the demand for rights and the obsession with materialism. But for some reason all this materialism isn’t sufficient for the needs of the soul and society moves towards anarchy. Society will destroy itself and who saves the day? You guessed it: the tyrant.
Democracy then degenerates into tyranny where no one has discipline and society exists in chaos. Democracy is taken over by the longing for freedom. Power must be seized to maintain order. A champion will come along and experience power, which will cause him to become a tyrant. The people will start to hate him and eventually try to remove him but will realize they are not able.
The tyrannical man is the son of the democratic man. He is the worst form of man due to his being the most unjust and thus the furthest removed from any joy of the true kind. He is consumed by lawless desires which cause him to do many terrible things such as murdering and plundering. He comes closest to complete lawlessness. The idea of moderation does not exist to him. He is consumed by the basest pleasures in life, and being granted these pleasures at a whim destroys the type of pleasure only attainable through knowing pain. If he spends all of his money and becomes poor, the tyrant will steal and conquer to satiate his desires, but will eventually overreach and force unto himself a fear of those around him, effectively limiting his own freedom. The tyrant always runs the risk of being killed in revenge for all the unjust things he has done. He becomes afraid to leave his own home and becomes trapped inside. Therefore, his lawlessness leads to his own self-imprisonment……………………………
The question of the thread asks if Hitler will be saved. We can’t know but we can contemplate why the quality of being expressed by the philosopher king must degenerate into its opposite: the tyrant. But such contemplation is rare. The modern trend is the refusal to see the world as it is. This refusal is defended by complaints.

It does seem inevitable that America will experience its first tyrant in the not so distant future. It has to. All the complaining and denial invites the tyrant, Plato’s description of the five regimes details why it must be. What is capable of minimizing the descent into a tyrannical regime? It is denied so the lawful descent of human being as described in the five regimes is just a lawful result of fallen human condition.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 6012
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:09 am

No one to be saved.

Right here there is nowhere else. Right here now is without begining nor end, without edge or border, without limit or comprehension. All knowledge is the mind of duality which is a phantom. No thing can capture the begining or the end of this here now. It's a totally seamless flow, and it's only the phantom mind that stops the flow by apparent inference...no thing is doing that.

No one can stop their self from being here, simply because no one is being here to stop it. Even killing yourself is not stopping yourself from being, because there is no one here to kill themself, if there was, then it would be known what it is like to die, and no one can know what death is. So you wouldn't even know you have ended your being by killing yourself, because you would have to be there in death to know you have killed yourself....all this is silly, knowledge informs the illusion that reality is being lived by a separate ''me'' ..it is not...so no one to be saved.


Where does one right here now begin and end? ..except as conceived by that which is inconceivable aka the phantom mind.


No one is born, no one dies, just this total unbounded unconditioned freedom doing what it does from this forever now seamless ocean of pure potentiality - spontaneous - unconditional freedom to act..all the one love in action dreaming difference where there is none.

.

Belinda
Posts: 2810
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:17 am

Nick wrote:
I am FOR the religious purpose of traditional marriage and not AGAINST gay marriage. Traditional marriage should be a celebrated ritual of a free society since a society to remain free needs help from above – the light of grace. It is an important symbol of a healthy metaxu which connects below to the above. But you are fixated on negativity, of pulling everything down into the secular exoteric level
Nick does not do history or anthropology.

gaffo
Posts: 2292
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by gaffo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:22 am

Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:06 am
gaffo wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:04 am
you remove Hitler from history and the entire European theater never happens.
Horsepuckeys! Remove Hitler and the next contender steps up.
No evil genius part ever went unfilled for want of villains waiting to audition.
i beleive that, you don't.
Must be nice to have everything laid out simple enough for you to understand.
yes it is nice being me.

fact is though one needs willing sheope, not just anyone can play the catalyst - only a select few of exception character (character not used as good here) - as Hilter and Yigal Amir were.

the former we know of (and again had he not existed/died in ww1), the germans would have not had another to rally the greived sheople to rabid levels (ww2) - instead a couple of tinpot wannabees like Rohm would have gotten partly there and not more (no invasion of Poland/France/etc.........).

BTW had Yigal Amir never been, he would not have killed Rabin, and the Palestinians would have their own state today and there would be peace for Israel.

SOMETIMES INDIVIDUALS DO MAKE HISTORY - they lead the sheaple that are willing "just enough to make thing happen".

not often, but in the two case above - sadly enough.

...............

now Israel will have to be forced to grant Palistinians Israeli citizenship and forfeit thier Jewish majority eventually..............

since the Jewish settlers since Amir's patriotic act accellerated their collonialization of the WB so much as make it impossible to allow any Palistinian State to exist.

only alternative is continued illegal occupation/subjegation of non-jews living there until the world boycotts their ass (BDS) - and forces them to lose their Jewish identity via inclusion of Palistianians as Israelis (they will have live with being a Democracy - instead of a Jewish Democracy).

of course it will take 40 more years of killing and pigheaded denial of reality............................but that just shows the power one thug with backing can do to change history ;-/.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Greatest I am and 3 guests