Frailty of scriptures

[Averroes]

So the scripture given to Prophet Moses were transcribed by Prophet Moses and were recorded in a Book known as the Torah. Muslims believe that the original Torah is now not available in its pristine purity but it has now been corrupted/modified.

really - can you tell me more about this? refer to links/etc..............

It is well known now since the Renaissance that the Torah has been badly corrupted. And now matters have been made worst since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 50s as the latter has provided overwhelming evidence that the corruption of the Torah has been a recurrent practice since at least the 3rd-2nd century BCE. The Jewish scholars themselves acknowledge that. No serious biblical scholar nowadays even doubts that the Torah has been badly corrupted. The issue nowadays which occupies the biblical scholars is whether through textual analysis the original Torah can be recovered and many scholars have expressed doubts about the adequacy of textual analysis for this task, so much that the Torah has been corrupted.

Of course I have links. And not only that, but also there are numerous books that have been written on that since the Renaissance, and lately with the analysis of the Dead Sea Scrolls there are even more books to consult on that subject!

Jewish (Orthodox) sites which acknowledge their Bible is badly corrupted:
1. http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed ... e-456.html

2. https://www.jta.org/2014/05/13/news-op ... -there-one

3. You can also investigate about the 6000 differences between the Samaritan Torah and the Jewish Torah. This is quite interesting. Check this article on Wikipedia to get a general overview of the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan_Pentateuch

There are many scholarly books that have been written on the comparative study of the Samaritan Torah and the Jewish Torah that details the significant differences between these two versions of the Torah. But this is too advanced at this stage if you are not even familiar with the subject.

4. If you have time you can also get into the books that addresses the subject of the textual analysis and criticism of the Dead Sea Scrolls. This is very enlightening as this provides overwhelming evidence that the Torah has been tampered with again and again and again for millennia. I recommend the following book as it is a very good book replete with examples from the Dead Sea Scrolls itself: Changes in Scripture, Rewriting and Interpreting Authoritative Traditions in the Second Temple Period , edited by Hanne von Weissenberg, Juha Pakkala and Marko Marttila.

Note: If you are interested to read that book and you don’t get it then drop an email address by PM to me, I will email you a digital copy, if God wills. Of course, this applies to anyone interested as well.

But now through a textual analysis of the Jewish Torah itself available nowadays we come to know that there are a lot of contradictions in it. But that everyone already knows about it. If you don’t know then check the following list of 101 contradictions which contains about 8 contradictions from the Torah, and the rest is from the Old Testament and the New Testament. https://www.islamawareness.net/Christia ... ra_101.html

[Averroes]

Islam is IDENTICAL to Judaism!!!!!!!! - same theology/same angels/same God etc!!!!!!!!!

Islam is very different from Judaism. For a start, no Muslim can be a Muslim if he/she does not accept Prophet Jesus Christ as a Prophet of God, the Almighty and as the Messiah. Accepting that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was a prophet of God and the Messiah is a requirement in Islam.

• And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." [Quran, 61:6]

And still today in the Talmud, one can read some Jews saying of Prophet Jesus(pbuh) that he was a sorcerer/magician!

Also in the Holy Quran is the following verse:

• O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant. [Quran 61:14]

In Arabic, “the Christians” are referred by the word “Al-Nasara”. Etymologically, “Al- Nasara” literally means the helpers/supporters. And from the above verse, this sense is made understood, i.e. the origin of why they were originally called “Al-Nasara.” Note that Jesus (pbuh) and the disciples spoke Aramaic which is a language close to Arabic.

Whereas, the Jews have not only rejected Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) and still do but they had also plotted to kill him. This is a very important difference. And there are many important differences as well. For example, Muslims are forbidden to kill women, children, the lame, the old and the sick when defending themselves against an oppressing people. Whereas it is said in the Torah available nowadays the following:

• However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God. [Deuteronomy 20: 16-18]

And in Numbers we have the following verse:

• 15 Moses said to them, “Have you allowed all the women to live? 16 These women here, on Balaam’s advice, made the Israelites act treacherously against the Lord in the affair of Peor, so that the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. [Numbers 31:15-18]

Note to readers: the Torah, i.e. the bible of the Jews, consists of five book, which are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Now, in Islam it is prohibited to kill children, women, the sick and lame and the old. Whereas the Jews have no problem morally and religiously with killing babies, children and women. And today itself we can witness that in Palestine, and this has been going on and on for 50 years. And The United States of America, i.e. the USA provides $10, 000, 000 EACH DAY to Israel to support their terror campaign against the women and children of Palestine. And this is no secret by the way, as everyone knows that the blood of the Palestinian children and women is on the hands of American taxpayers as well. But that's not a problem for them as Numbers 31:17 is in their book as well!

Israel War (with the support of the USA) on Palestinian children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z4TvDbffI0

Whereas in Islam not only we cannot kill children and women in combat but we are not even allowed to fight a people who are not aggressive and oppressive to us even if they do not believe in God, the Almighty. Not only that, but we are to act righteously and justly with them! Allah, the Most Merciful says in the Holy Quran:

• Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. [Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning, 60:8]

So, Islam and Judaism are far from being the same. And there are many other important differences as well. Let me give one more example. It is forbidden to the Muslims to engage in usury/interest.

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Those who consume interest cannot stand [on the Day of Resurrection] except as one stands who is being beaten by Satan into insanity. That is because they say, "Trade is [just] like interest." But Allah has permitted trade and has forbidden interest. So whoever has received an admonition from his Lord and desists may have what is past, and his affair rests with Allah. But whoever returns to [dealing in interest or usury] - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein. [Quran 2:275]

• Allah destroys interest and gives increase for charities. And Allah does not like every sinning disbeliever. Indeed, those who believe and do righteous deeds and establish prayer and give zakah will have their reward with their Lord, and there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. O you who have believed, fear Allah and give up what remains [due to you] of interest, if you should be believers. And if you do not, then be informed of a war [against you] from Allah and His Messenger. But if you repent, you may have your principal - [thus] you do no wrong, nor are you wronged. And if someone is in hardship, then [let there be] postponement until [a time of] ease. But if you give [from your right as] charity, then it is better for you, if you only knew. [Quran 2:276-280]

Whereas in the past and still today, the Jews allow themselves to engage in usury with what they call the “Goyim” (i.e. non-Jews).

• But the halakha (Jewish law) that prescribes interest-free loans applies only to loans made to other Jews. Jewish law allows making loans with interest to persons who are not Jewish. Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loans_and ... in_Judaism

Conclusion.

Islam is far better than Judaism (and Christianity also for that matter) and in every respect. I was from the Judeo-Christian tradition before I embraced Islam, and I read the OT and NT since I was 15 years old! So I know from experience that Islam is far superior to either Judaism or Christianity.

[Averroes]

All Islamic scholars and many scientists as well have acknowledged that there is no error in the Holy Quran.

no, not scientists, maybe islamic "scholars" - then they lack scholarship if it is so.


again history is history, and hysteria will not rewrite historical facts (i.e. reality - real world events).

Well, it is a historical fact that many scientists have acknowledged the many scientific statements in the Holy Quran and, moreover, these scientific facts have only just been recently discovered by modern science! And many of these scientists after having read the Holy Quran and found absolutely no errors and contradictions in it, ended embracing Islam. That is a historical fact for which there is abundant evidence and for which, moreover, I can show you some of these evidences now itself!


1. Professor Milan.

Prof Milan from Czech republic was a former atheist, but later when he read the Holy Quran and became aware of the scientific statement in it, he embraced Islam. As evidence for this claim, I produce the following YouTube video where his testimony is recorded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSpG3qEmKFE


2. Professor E. Marshal Johnson.

Prof. Johnson is the author of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments. Professor Johnson began to take an interest in the scientific signs in the Qur'an at the 7th Saudi Medical Conference (1982), when a special committee was formed to investigate scientific signs in the Qur'an and Hadith. At first, Professor Johnson refused to accept the existence of such verses in the Qur'an and Hadith. But after a dicussuion with Sheikh Zindani he took an interest and concentrated his research on the internal as well as external development of the fetus.
He said:

...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.
As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur'an. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described...
I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write…"

Evidence YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMjecnhx_po


3. .Professor Tejatat Tejasen

Professor Tejasen was chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand.

Professor Tejasen studied various articles concerning the Qur'an and modern embryology. He spent four days with several scholars, Muslims and non-Muslims, discussing this phenomenon in the Qur'an and Hadith. During the 8th Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia he stood up and said:

"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'an... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'an fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.
Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a Messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible creator. This creator must be God, or Allah.
I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammad rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger of Allah...
The most precious thing I have gained from coming to this conference is La ilaha illa Allah, and to have become Muslim."

Evidence YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKvbxALNAlg


4. Professor Keith Moore

Prof. Moore said in 1989:

For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah.

...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D...the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century…

Presentation by Professor Moore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws9LdtuoePk


5. Dr Maurice Bucaille.

Dr Bucaille was a medical doctor from France and after embracing Islam he wrote a book on the many scientific statements in the Holy Quran.

Interview of Dr Bucaille: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQlqj3bt2Vc

Book of Dr Bucaille: https://archive.org/details/TheBiblethe ... ceBucaille


6. Dr Jeffrey Lang, professor of mathematics from the USA.

The following YouTube video is a very powerful speech by former atheist Dr Lang on how reading an English translation of the Holy Quran shattered all his atheistic beliefs and instilled belief of the Islamic faith in his heart.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H_C0BMyGCA

And there are many many other scientists and western academics as well who have testified that there is no scientific errors in the Holy Quran.

7. Concluding example.

Let me give you an example of a scientific statement from the Holy Quran which has just been recently discovered by modern science.

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? [Quran 21:30]

And also:

• And We constructed the heaven with strength, and indeed, We are (its) Expanders. [Quran 51:47]

Today we talk of the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe as a great achievement of the scientific methodology in acquiring knowledge. And it is. But such an achievement was made possible only by the use of billions of dollars worth of equipment, and also by centuries of intellection by the scientists and philosophers. And yet the same statement has already been made some 1400 years ago and is recorded in a glorious Book called the Holy Quran.

I also wrote a post on this forum of the very elaborate mathematical coding that pervades the whole Holy Quran. Here is the link to that in-forum post viewtopic.php?p=342538#p342538

[gaffo]

and the last and final Messenger Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

clarify please - does the Koran state that Mohammed is to be the last prophet?

cite please

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing. [Quran, 33:40]

thank you Averroes for referencing spec verse to back up your claim. i value learning, and i learned this particular just now.

thank you.

-------I read your many subsequent posts to me - and thank you for your civil discourse, I'm not anti-Islam, and in fact read nearly 1/2 of your Holy Book
in the late 80's (Engllsh translation - ya i know translations don't count - i know somewhat about these things having a Persian-American Girlfriend in college many many years ago - early 90's.

anyway - i have no wish to convert you from your faith, and don't expect to do likewise with me - as long as we are ok with that - i welcome discussion between us.

you said a few things in replies to me i'd like to talk about, but too tired to do so now - its late. i will come back here in a few days and look forward to discussing these matters (BTW its good to see someone other than "Western Christians" here - not sure if you are "Western" but you sure ain't Christian - i welcome this. now if we only had a couple of Hindus too ;-/. oh well.

[Averroes]

clarify please - does the Koran state that Mohammed is to be the last prophet?

cite please

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing. [Quran, 33:40]

thank you Averroes for referencing spec verse to back up your claim. i value learning, and i learned this particular just now.

thank you.

You are most welcomed. I value learning as well, and also sharing whatever I know to anyone of my brothers and sisters in humanity that can benefit them. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is reported to have said by Ibn Abbas as follows:

• "The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, 'Teach and make it easy.
  Teach and make it easy', three times. He went on, 'When you are angry, be silent', twice." [Al-Adab Al-Mufrad 1320]

Moreover, whenever someone asks me a question about Islam and I know the answer, then Allah, the Almighty has put it a duty upon the Muslims to reply to the question.

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse,
  Except for those who repent and correct themselves and make evident [what they concealed]. Those - I will accept their repentance, and I am the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
  Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together,
  Abiding eternally therein. The punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved.
  And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. [Quran 2:159-163]

-------I read your many subsequent posts to me - and thank you for your civil discourse, I'm not anti-Islam, and in fact read nearly 1/2 of your Holy Book
in the late 80's (Engllsh translation - ya i know translations don't count - i know somewhat about these things having a Persian-American Girlfriend in college many many years ago - early 90's.

If you do not speak the Arabic language then it is only through the translations from reliable translators of the Holy Quran that you can come to know about the Holy Quran. If you don't know what translation to read from then I can advise you to read from the translation of Sahih International. Before I learned the Arabic language myself, I relied completely on the translation of the Holy Quran. And much of my knowledge of the Holy Quran that I quote now on this forum is from my previous study of the translation of the Holy Quran. So I am of the opinion the translation do count if one does not yet speak the Arabic language. I will advise you (if you would allow me) to continue your study of the translation of the Holy Quran. In a clean place, read a translation of the Holy Quran as often as you can. And still in a clean place, listen to the recitation of the Holy Quran from the Quranic reciters. This has changed my life from the mediocre to the best experience that a human being can have. And the best advice that I can give you is to always be thankful of what your Creator the Almighty has given and gives you.

The following YouTube videos are a sample from my favorite reciters:
Mishary Al-Afasy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDvh63xHVa0
AbdulBasit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK88FsJ3xQM
AbdulBasit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5iElBopeyA
AbdulBasit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfBECWykm2o

you said a few things in replies to me i'd like to talk about, but too tired to do so now - its late. i will come back here in a few days and look forward to discussing these matters

Take all the time you need. There is no need to worry about that. Everything, including time, life and death are all within the complete control of God, the Almighty.

now if we only had a couple of Hindus too ;-/. oh well.

Well, that's not really a problem when I am here! By the mercy of our Creator, the Most Merciful, I can talk about Hinduism too. I am a one man team! All praises and thanks are due to Allah, the Most Generous. Just tell me where to start or what you want to know and if Allah wills, I will inform or discuss with you about it.

[gaffo]

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing. [Quran, 33:40]

thank you Averroes for referencing spec verse to back up your claim. i value learning, and i learned this particular just now.

thank you.

You are most welcomed. I value learning as well, and also sharing whatever I know to anyone of my brothers and sisters in humanity that can benefit them. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is reported to have said by Ibn Abbas as follows:

• "The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, 'Teach and make it easy.
  Teach and make it easy', three times. He went on, 'When you are angry, be silent', twice." [Al-Adab Al-Mufrad 1320]

Moreover, whenever someone asks me a question about Islam and I know the answer, then Allah, the Almighty has put it a duty upon the Muslims to reply to the question.

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse,
  Except for those who repent and correct themselves and make evident [what they concealed]. Those - I will accept their repentance, and I am the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
  Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together,
  Abiding eternally therein. The punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved.
  And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. [Quran 2:159-163]

you show a kind and inclusive spirit of character - so far i think i can say i like you Sir - and welcome discussion from a Hell bound heathen to a Saved Believer.

I've not had time to inguire about your earlier posts - yet, so after replying to your goodwill post here, will do so soon later,

-------I read your many subsequent posts to me - and thank you for your civil discourse, I'm not anti-Islam, and in fact read nearly 1/2 of your Holy Book
in the late 80's (Engllsh translation - ya i know translations don't count - i know somewhat about these things having a Persian-American Girlfriend in college many many years ago - early 90's.

If you do not speak the Arabic language then it is only through the translations from reliable translators of the Holy Quran that you can come to know about the Holy Quran. If you don't know what translation to read from then I can advise you to read from the translation of Sahih International.

my english translation was via "Penguin publishing" - highly regarded publisher, so i think it should be pretty good in translation regards.

I still have this Koran of course - though not read from it in at least 30 years now.

Before I learned the Arabic language myself, I relied completely on the translation of the Holy Quran. And much of my knowledge of the Holy Quran that I quote now on this forum is from my previous study of the translation of the Holy Quran. So I am of the opinion the translation do count if one does not yet speak the Arabic language. I will advise you (if you would allow me) to continue your study of the translation of the Holy Quran. In a clean place, read a translation of the Holy Quran as often as you can. And still in a clean place, listen to the recitation of the Holy Quran from the Quranic reciters. This has changed my life from the mediocre to the best experience that a human being can have. And the best advice that I can give you is to always be thankful of what your Creator the Almighty has given and gives you.

I'm glad that the Koran spoke to you personally - from your post above - it seems to have provided you a positive in life.

i find that good and well, for me, said work just read like my known christian work The Apocolypse - i.e. end times theology - which your Koran and NT Revalations concur with - and for me personally did not serve me personally to better my life. i read both the christian work and 1/2 of the work that changed your life for he better - yet for me neigher changed my life, i read and noted the views of both. and continued on with my life.

neither "spoke to me personally" - though i do find Revelation's theme in the abstract (justice for the oppressed ove the oppressor at the end days).

but clearly the Koran has spoken to you personally, and to me that is fine and good. maybe you found something in it i did not (and please do not try to convert me - afford me as an equal human - though a hell bound atheist one - ok? - I ask such. ok?

now if we only had a couple of Hindus too ;-/. oh well.

Well, that's not really a problem when I am here! By the mercy of our Creator, the Most Merciful, I can talk about Hinduism too. I am a one man team! All praises and thanks are due to Allah, the Most Generous. Just tell me where to start or what you want to know and if Allah wills, I will inform or discuss with you about it.

interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - internet is a place for anonimnity(sp) - but your above now has me curious about you as a person - you imply you know about Hinuism, and only latter learned Arabic (reading the Koran in "English" (there must be a Koran in Hindi? - yes surely).

you an English Indian? - born from Hindu parents converted to Islam?

-------not need to answer Sir - it is none of my business - but would welcome knowing more about you since your above reply got me interested.

BTW - since you seem to know much about Hinduism - which i know very little being an American (but more than most Americans - know about the 7 incarnations of God as his Sons - Ramma, Krishna, and the 5 others - the name i know not (do any Hindus know their names?).

I know of the Mahabbaratta(sp), and Rammananna(sp) - hindu texts, i think the Bagivad Gita is part of the former?

welcome clarification on these matters.

[gaffo]

I agree that it is a big sin for a man to say that he is God or a son of God. This is strictly forbidden in Islam and in the Holy Quran. But not in the Jewish Bible available nowadays! Doesn’t the Jewish Torah nowadays itself say of Israel/Jacob that he is a son of God?

your use of "nowdays" implies that the Torah's theology was corrupted since original times.

disagree fully, Judiac scribes were the best in the word, they preserved the Torah over centuries with less errors than the scribs of other wroks/faiths over the same time frame.

there is no "conspiracy of Torah" - as you seem to imply.

• 22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, Israel is my first-born son,
  23 and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me”; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.’”[Exodus 4:22-23]

Judaism is the same as Islam (regardless of your post about the Jew rejecting Mohammed/Jesus - they affirm the latter is a Rabbi/teacher.............all that is "small stuff" Jews/Muslims affrim YHWH/Allah as the same God, and his servants such a Garbiel/Micheal and the rest of the Sirphim(sp) as existing and servants of the same God!!!!!!!!!!!!

and so per the CORE issues - Islam and judaism is identical!

and as per your reference above - IMO the concept of any human being "God's Son" is heresy in the Torah - the wording above is alogorcal..............i.e. like the most Christlike man in the last 00 yrs was Ghandi, IMO I could say he was "god's son" - via his actions were pure - not that he was devine!!!

that is my view on the Torah references you give me.

And moreover in Psalms 82:6-7, it is said the following:

• I say, “You are gods,
  sons of the Most High, all of you;
  nevertheless, you shall die like men,
  and fall like any prince.”[Psalms 82:6-7]

__________

same thing - you are a son of the most high as i muslim? yes?

same thing is the mindset of the verses you use to literally above - to show a thing that is false IMO.

[gaffo]

That is your claim. I do not accept that. There is only one Holy Quran. As I already said, whatever the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) attested as such, is the Holy Quran. Anything which is not in accordance with what has come out of his mouth or acknowledged as such by the blessed Prophet himself(pbuh) is not the Holy Quran. It is true that the third Caliph of Islam namely Uthman Ibn Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) burned some manuscripts, but the Muslims dispute that these books were the Holy Quran. If you say there is more than one Quran, then I have to ask you to bring the evidence of the different alleged Qurans. Now you might say that since the books were burned you cannot produce them as evidence. And I will understand. But now, since you cannot produce them as evidence then you cannot claim that they were Holy Quran variants! From the Muslim history books, from which people learned that Uthman Ibn Affan burn some manuscripts, it is also said that these manuscripts were not in accordance with what the Holy Prophet attested as the Holy Quran. So, for the Muslims what were burned by Uthman ibn Affan were not the Holy Quran! And that’s history! And also basic logic!

ok, then we agree to dissargee.

not into beating dead horses.

ok with discussing things we may eventually concur (after trials and tribulations) over however.

[gaffo]

It is well known now since the Renaissance that the Torah has been badly corrupted.

I'm sorry, but you are utterly wrong here. the Torah has been re-written/translated over centuries more accurately than any other written work on earth!!!!!!!!

the Qumran Scrolls found in 48 only affirm AFFIRM!!!!!!!!!!!!! this - those works were found to be VERY accurate to the Rabbinical equivalent Torah - though separated by 1800 years!!!

so no you are full on WRONG in this particular belief Sir!

[Averroes]

now if we only had a couple of Hindus too ;-/. oh well.

Well, that's not really a problem when I am here! By the mercy of our Creator, the Most Merciful, I can talk about Hinduism too. I am a one man team! All praises and thanks are due to Allah, the Most Generous. Just tell me where to start or what you want to know and if Allah wills, I will inform or discuss with you about it.

interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - internet is a place for anonimnity(sp) - but your above now has me curious about you as a person - you imply you know about Hinuism, and only latter learned Arabic (reading the Koran in "English" (there must be a Koran in Hindi? - yes surely).

you an English Indian? - born from Hindu parents converted to Islam?

-------not need to answer Sir - it is none of my business - but would welcome knowing more about you since your above reply got me interested.

Well, you are absolutely right on one point at least, namely that it is absolutely none of your business whatsoever. However, you are raising a subject that I would like to comment on, so I have decided to satisfy your curiosity!

So to the question: "Am I an English Indian?"; I answer: I am not an Indian, and neither am I from India nor have I ever been to India. And for all that, I thank Allah, the Almighty for having spared me that kind of trial. If anyone is not in or from India, I advise you to thank your Creator, the All-Wise as well.

As you all might already know from the news, minorities such as Christians and Muslims are actually being greatly persecuted in India by the extremist Hindus such as for example the RSS movement. From some trustworthy sources, I have learned that they are even reading the Mein Kamph of Hitler to get inspired of how to rid India of non-Hindus. And the actual Prime Minister of India, Narendra Modi is himself a member of that organization through his right-wing party the BJP. And indeed Narendra Modi is himself a Hindu-supremacist who endorses persecution of Muslims and Christians in India. It is well-known to everyone who follows the international news that India has fallen even deeper into savagery since Narendra Modi came to power. These “cows and monkey worshipers” were already savages but now their savagery has exceeded all bounds. Anti-Muslim bigotry has been normalized in India under Modi. Muslims are being lynched by Hindu extremist mobs under rumors of eating beef!! Christian nuns are being raped and Christian priests beaten.

As you also might already know, in many states in India at present, it is prohibited to eat beef/cows. These beef prohibition laws are the consequences of Modi’s mandate. Modi and extremist Hindus like him have the objective which is captured in their ideology “Hindutva” meaning something like “India for Hindu only.”
It is a very difficult situation that Christians and Muslims are living in India actually. Let me give you some examples of the barbarity and savagery of these “cow and monkey worshipers”.

1. A 71 year old Christian nun raped in her convent! : https://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/14/asia ... index.html
2. A 48 year old Christian nun raped and the perpetrators were acquitted: https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/ ... rape-case/
3. A Muslim man suspected of eating beef killed in India by “cow protectors”: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... protectors

And there are a lot lot more like this. I have seen on YouTube a Christian priest getting beaten with sticks by some 5-6 people. Still on YouTube, I have seen young Muslim men being tied, slapped, kicked and urinated over for being suspected of eating or selling beef. Many are killed just for being suspected of eating or selling beef. On YouTube one can find a lot of these atrocities against the minorities in India. I have to warn that there are many of such videos which are very disturbing. And all these crimes against the minorities are overlooked if not even encouraged by the actual government of India under Narendra Modi.

And as one would think that these savages could not stoop lower than that, then one finds that this is just the tip of the iceberg! Indeed, these idol worshipers are even more barbaric than that. They treat their cows better than their own women over there! Women are treated worse than animals in India. They do not make a difference between a toddler and an old women; every female is at risk in India. The world has already known and was greatly shocked by the gang rape of a young Hindu girl on a bus in India in broad daylight some years ago. But the practice of gang raping of little girls and toddlers is a tradition well-entrenched in India! Check the following to witness the depth of their barbarism:

1. Toddler and five year old gang raped in India. (17 October 2015)
Site, an article from The Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 97816.html

2. 14 year old girl raped by army personnel gang. (29 Dec 2015)
Site: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 89501.html

3. 7 year old girl raped and murdered by Hindu neighbor. (9 February 2017)
Site: http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... 78--1.html

4. 22 month old raped by a 45 year old Hindu man. (May 7, 2017)

Warning: The following link is from Dailymail online. The article provides photos of the toddler. Those with heart conditions are highly advised to NOT click the link and watch. It is just too heart breaking.

Site: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... India.html

And this is just a very small sample of what happens in the barbaric country known as India. It is reported that in 2015, there were about 34,651 women rape cases reported in India, but experts says that this figure greatly underestimate the gravity of the situation in India as many more rape cases are not reported due to the victims fearing negative judgment of their people. The number of reported rape cases has risen by 50% in the last five years in India.
And as I already mentioned, the most known and brutal rape, which was covered by international media, occurred in New Delhi in 2012. The victim of the rape was a young medical student who was gang raped on a public bus, beaten, tortured, and then left to die!!!

As everyone can witness for themselves: the Hindus abandoned God, the Almighty and instead they chose to worship cows, monkeys, elephants, rats and whatnot and as a result they became much more worse than animals.

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• And be not like those who forgot Allah, so He made them forget themselves. Those are the defiantly disobedient. [Quran 59:19]

Now, what you were truly inquiring in your post by asking me if I an English Indian is as follows: How come that I know of all this? Well, the answer is quite simple and I already gave you some hints in my previous posts: I read and study a lot! And this, as I had explained, is due to my reading and pondering of the Holy Quran. When I embraced Islam, as I said, it was as if my then modest and limited intellectual abilities were multiplied by many folds. And as I already said, now it is as if I am a one man team!

• O you who have believed, if you fear Allah, He will grant you a criterion and will remove from you your misdeeds and forgive you. And Allah is the possessor of great bounty. [Quran, interpretation of meaning 8:29]

____________________

BTW - since you seem to know much about Hinduism - which i know very little being an American (but more than most Americans - know about the 7 incarnations of God as his Sons - Ramma, Krishna, and the 5 others - the name i know not (do any Hindus know their names?).

You say that being an American is the reason that you do not know about other cultures such as the Hindus. I quite understand that. But if you were in Islam, there would be many things which would then arouse your interest. This is not just the case for me but for many other people who embraced Islam from being raised in another religion. For example, you might be interested to learn that the second most prolific Islamic preacher in the world today is himself a convert from Christianity and he is from the USA! His name is Sheik Yusuf Estes. “Sheik” is a title, for example like “Dr”; it means Yusuf Estes is now an Islamic scholar. Indeed, many thousands of non-Muslims (many of them Americans) have embraced Islam by the invitation of Sheik Estes. He even has YouTube videos where he is teaching Quranic Arabic. And there are other Americans who had a similar experience when embracing Islam. Hamza Yusuf is another such American who embraced Islam from Christianity, and now he is the co-founder of an educational institution called the Zaytuna College in California.

In the following video you can see Sheik Yusuf Estes with sister Lucy who is embracing Islam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RA05mwKZe8

I just re-watched this video. I already said this before on the forum, but I will say it again: for the sake of Allah, I love Sheik Yusuf Estes.
__________________

I know of the Mahabbaratta(sp), and Rammananna(sp) - hindu texts, i think the Bagivad Gita is part of the former?

welcome clarification on these matters.

Alright. Don’t worry, if Allah wills, I will share my knowledge with you. Just give me some time as there are many things to cover.

[Averroes]

• 22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, Israel is my first-born son,
  23 and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me”; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.’”[Exodus 4:22-23]

Judaism is the same as Islam (regardless of your post about the Jew rejecting Mohammed/Jesus - they affirm the latter is a Rabbi/teacher.............all that is "small stuff" Jews/Muslims affrim YHWH/Allah as the same God, and his servants such a Garbiel/Micheal and the rest of the Sirphim(sp) as existing and servants of the same God!!!!!!!!!!!!

and so per the CORE issues - Islam and judaism is identical!

That is your opinion, which of course you are entitled to. But from my point of view, Islam is very different from Judaism because of the fundamental differences that I had already mentioned. There are many differences but I had mentioned three:

1. The acceptance of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) as a Messenger of God, the Almighty,
2. Not killing or hurting women and children in wars, and
3. Not practicing usury and interest.

In Islam, a Muslim must accept Prophet Jesus (pbuh) as a Prophet of God. A Muslim cannot kill or harm women and children when opposing an aggressive and oppressive group of people. And a Muslim cannot practice usury/interest whether it be with other Muslims or non-Muslims.

And on all three counts the Jews are found guilty for they do not accept Prophet Jesus (pbuh). They have killed and are still killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinian women and children after having stolen their land. And all that with the support of the USA. And the Jews also practice usury with many non-Jews. The actual banking system was in fact instituted by the practices of the Jews.

Did I mention that the Jews in occupied Palestine are racists as well and they practice apartheid in Palestine? Indeed, according to Prof. Noam Chomsky the actions of “the rogue state of Israel” (his own words) are worse than the apartheid in South Africa. Also, Prof. Noam Chomsky says that Israel and the USA are sadists and criminals; and the USA are the leading perpetrators of violence in the world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SZXVVZWoaw

Of course now, if one were to abstract or ignore all the differences between two very dissimilar things then if some common properties were to remain, however slight, they could be found to be equivalent! Let us take the example of a healthy person and a sick person. Apart from health issues, they are equivalent!! Another example we might take is that of a dead person and a living person. Apart from the difference that one has life and the other not, they are equivalent! Another example, the intelligent and the stupid persons. Apart from intelligence, the intelligent person is equivalent to the stupid person! But I am not sure if anyone will take me seriously if I were to make these kind of statements!!

[Averroes]

• 22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, Israel is my first-born son,
  23 and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me”; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.’”[Exodus 4:22-23]

and as per your reference above - IMO the concept of any human being "God's Son" is heresy in the Torah - the wording above is alogorcal..............i.e. like the most Christlike man in the last 00 yrs was Ghandi, IMO I could say he was "god's son" - via his actions were pure - not that he was devine!!!

that is my view on the Torah references you give me.

That was exactly the point! The Jews will tell you that verses Exodus 4:22 and Psalms 82:6 are allegorical verses, and in fact they understand the expression “son of God” in their scriptures as “servant/slave of God.” But then why is it that when Prophet Jesus (pbuh) tells them about that, they wanted to stone him? For according to John 10: 31-36 we can read the following:

• 31. The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
  32. Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?”
  33. The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.”
  34. Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
  35. If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled—
  36. can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? [John 10:31-36 RSV]

So now, why cannot the expression “son of God” be interpreted metaphorically with respect to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) as well? Why the double standards? The answer is that if the Jews were to interpret the expression “son of God” allegorically with respect to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) as well (as he is claimed to have said in the Gospel), then they (the Jews) would have had to believe and follow him! But they were averse to the message Prophet Jesus (pbuh) came with and they were looking for every kind of opportunity to challenge him and make his mission difficult. And in the end, they ended up rejecting the Messiah (pbuh). Instead, the Jews resorted to insulting, degrading and threatening to beat, stone and kill Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and they also slander his mother Mary (may Allah be pleased with her) much in their scriptures (e.g. the Talmud). For the historical context here, one has to take into consideration that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was born without a father. And Prophet Jesus was created by God, the Almighty in a similar fashion as our father Adam(pbuh), who was created without a father and a mother. For someone who has no father but only a mother, I let you guess at what kinds of slanders might be leveled against that person and his mother! And in the Talmud today, these filthy slanders are very explicit!

The philosophical argument expressed in John 10:31-36 is clear though. It is intended to convey that the expression “son of God” in the Gospel is to be interpreted as a metaphor as it is construed by the Jews reading Exodus 4:22 and Psalms 82:6.

And many of the later Christians (probably also due to being pressured by the Jews' slanders against Jesus) would make the big mistake of construing the metaphorical expression “son of God” literally. And this indeed is clear heresy. But God, the Almighty in His Immense Compassion to mankind had sent Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to correct their erroneous and blasphemous beliefs.

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
  
  Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together.
  
  And as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards and grant them extra from His bounty. But as for those who disdained and were arrogant, He will punish them with a painful punishment, and they will not find for themselves besides Allah any protector or helper.
  
  O mankind, there has come to you a conclusive proof from your Lord, and We have sent down to you a clear light.
  
  So those who believe in Allah and hold fast to Him - He will admit them to mercy from Himself and bounty and guide them to Himself on a straight path. [Quran 4:171-175]

_______________________

And moreover in Psalms 82:6-7, it is said the following:

• I say, “You are gods,
  sons of the Most High, all of you;
  nevertheless, you shall die like men,
  and fall like any prince.”[Psalms 82:6-7]

__________

same thing - you are a son of the most high as i muslim? yes?

Absolutely not. I am not the “son of God.” And neither is anything or anyone the “son of God.” Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• 1. [All] praise is [due] to Allah, who has sent down upon His Servant [Muhammad] the Book and has not made therein any deviance.
  
  2. [He has made it] straight, to warn of severe punishment from Him and to give good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a good reward
  
  3. In which they will remain forever
  
  4. And to warn those who say, " Allah has taken a son."
  
  5. They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths; they speak not except a lie. [Quran 18:1-5]

[Averroes]

It is well known now since the Renaissance that the Torah has been badly corrupted.

I'm sorry, but you are utterly wrong here. the Torah has been re-written/translated over centuries more accurately than any other written work on earth!!!!!!!!

the Qumran Scrolls found in 48 only affirm AFFIRM!!!!!!!!!!!!! this - those works were found to be VERY accurate to the Rabbinical equivalent Torah - though separated by 1800 years!!!

so no you are full on WRONG in this particular belief Sir!

That is your opinion to which you are entitled. But according to the biblical scholars including the Jewish scholars themselves, it has long been established without the shadow of a doubt that the Torah has been very badly corrupted already since the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Moreover, the Dead Sea Scrolls provide abundant evidence of such. You should study more the subject, for you clearly do not know the evidence relating to the subject. Read the book for which I gave you the reference. There are many more books and sites other than the ones that I have already linked you to. No serious biblical scholar nowadays challenge that. But of course you are free to disregard these scholarly works and go by your own gut feeling on the matter!

Here I propose to quote from the book that I mentioned previously, namely Changes in Scripture, Rewriting and Interpreting Authoritative Traditions in the Second Temple Period Edited by Hanne von Weissenberg, Juha Pakkala and Marko Marttila.


Some history for the readers is necessary before quoting the scholars. The Second Temple Period in Jewish history is the period from about 538 BCE (when the Jews started to return to Jerusalem from their forced exile to Babylon (modern day Iraq) by Nebuchadnezzar) to 70 CE.

From Wikipedia: The Second Temple period in Jewish history lasted between 530 BCE and 70 CE, when the Second Temple of Jerusalem existed. The sects of Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots were formed during this period. The Second Temple period ended with the First Jewish–Roman War and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.


Hanne von Weissenberg, Juha Pakkala and Marko Marttila wrote:

• The study of the Hebrew Scriptures and the literature of the Second Temple period is currently in a state of transformation. The discovery and full publication of the Dead Sea Scrolls has been instrumental in this process and it is only now that their full impact is starting to be felt in the field of Biblical Studies. Some may characterize the current state of research as a “post-Qumran” period of transformation. The Qumran material is fundamentally modifying our understanding of many central questions, such as the textual development of the Hebrew Scriptures, the formation of the canon, and biblical interpretation in the Second Temple period. The texts from Qumran also provide valuable information about scribal techniques in this period. With the Qumran evidence, it has now become clear that the texts of the Hebrew Scriptures continued to be edited and changed until much later than what has traditionally been assumed. Moreover, the evidence seems to suggest that the editing processes were more radical than assumed. Changes to the older texts were not restricted to expansions. Rewriting and rearranging were not uncommon.

The editors of the book namely: Hanne von Weissenberg, Juha Pakkala and Marko Marttila are scholars on the subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Hebrew Bible from the University of Helsinky.

You can read a bit more about them at the following links:

1. Hanne von Weissenberg.

Portfolio of Hanne von Weissenberg: https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/en/per ... b1d2).html

2. Juha Pakkala

Portfolio of Juha Pakkala: https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/en/per ... e3cb).html

Curriculum Vitae of Juha Pakkala: https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/files/ ... kkala.pdf

3. Marko Marttila
Portfolio of Marko Marttila : https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/en/per ... 4988).html


Let me give another excerpt from the book in question.

This time the writer is John J. Collins who is an American and Professor of Old Testament Criticism & Interpretation at Yale Divinity School. He is noted for his research in the Hebrew Bible, as well as the apocryphal works of the Second Temple period including the sectarian works found in Dead Sea Scrolls and their relation to Christian origins. Collins has published and edited over 300 scholarly works, and a number of popular level articles and books. You can read more about him on Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Collins

John J. Collins wrote:

• “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us,’
  when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie” (Jer 8:8)
  
  We do not know precisely what Jeremiah had in mind in his scathing denunciation of scribal activity on the Torah. Many scholars think that the prophet was opposed to any written Torah. He was certainly concerned that the authority of the prophet to speak for God was being
  usurped by the scribes, as indeed it was. But it is also established beyond doubt that scribes frequently changed the supposedly revealed texts that they transmitted. Ironically, the book of Jeremiah is itself a prime example of scribal composition, where the original oracles of the prophet are now overshadowed by the accretions, often ideological, of scribal transmission.

Yet another Dead Sea Scrolls scholar Dr Hans Debel wrote:

• "In a nutshell, the Second Temple period now appears as a time of unprecedented scribal creativity and socio-religious dynamics, during which the scriptural text was still organically developing and in a pluriform state.
  (...)
  When compared to the prevalent opinion roughly a century ago, the textual material found in the Judean Desert has dramatically altered the hermeneutical framework for the text-critical analysis of the Hebrew Bible. The theory of a single “archetype” developing into different “recensions,” usually associated with the name of Paul de Lagarde, has become untenable, and important reflections towards a new framework have been put forward by Frank Moore Cross, Shemaryahu Talmon, Emanuel Tov and Eugene Ulrich. At present, many scholars have underscored the usefulness of Ulrich’s model of textual plurality, in which “variant literary editions” of certain textual units are considered the tangible witnesses of the developmental state of the scriptural texts during the Second Temple period, with creative scribes intentionally rewriting the inherited text in light of their present situation."

The book Changes in Scripture contain about 20 scholarly articles written by 18 different Hebrew biblical scholars (i.e. those people having at least a Phd in the subject!) from different parts of the Western world. Here, I have to point out to the reader that these scholarly works are not meant for the casual reader on the subject but requires advanced knowledge of the scriptures and history as well. All these articles are very technical, for they go into the very minute details of the evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls (to give you a rough idea: in one paper even a dot in the Qumran text has been analyzed!). It is very interesting indeed but it is not an easy read. So if one is not much interested in history, scriptural studies and textual analysis of the Semitic scriptures, then this book is NOT for you!

Anyway, I could go on to quote more excerpts from the book, but at the end of the day it is clear what all these about two dozens biblical scholars who contributed to the book are saying. They are all unanimous in saying that the Torah was very badly corrupted already since the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls, i.e. the Second Temple Period.

Now it is up to the readers to make up their mind after assessing the evidence of the Qumran texts themselves. But again no one can be forced to believe the overwhelming evidence which clearly shows that the Torah has been very badly corrupted already since the Second Temple Period. For me and the scholars the matter has already been settled “beyond the shadow of a doubt” -as the scholars themselves might say!

[gaffo]

now if we only had a couple of Hindus too ;-/. oh well.

Well, that's not really a problem when I am here! By the mercy of our Creator, the Most Merciful, I can talk about Hinduism too. I am a one man team! All praises and thanks are due to Allah, the Most Generous. Just tell me where to start or what you want to know and if Allah wills, I will inform or discuss with you about it.

interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - internet is a place for anonimnity(sp) - but your above now has me curious about you as a person - you imply you know about Hinuism, and only latter learned Arabic (reading the Koran in "English" (there must be a Koran in Hindi? - yes surely).

you an English Indian? - born from Hindu parents converted to Islam?

-------not need to answer Sir - it is none of my business - but would welcome knowing more about you since your above reply got me interested.

Well, you are absolutely right on one point at least, namely that it is absolutely none of your business whatsoever. However, you are raising a subject that I would like to comment on, so I have decided to satisfy your curiosity!

So to the question: "Am I an English Indian?"; I answer: I am not an Indian, and neither am I from India nor have I ever been to India. And for all that, I thank Allah, the Almighty for having spared me that kind of trial. If anyone is not in or from India, I advise you to thank your Creator, the All-Wise as well.

ok. thanks for clarifying your past.

- you have shown an interest in discussion over in invective.

and so like you we concur.

I welcome more discussion with you.

- there are too few here that are not Athiests/chrsitian - i welcome voices from outside of the "Western" eco chamber.

I'm likely to dissagree with most of your views - but welcom them so as to educate me more about views outside of the usual "Western" eco chamber.

I'm ok with agreeing to dissagree - and suspect you are too. so all is good.

As you all might already know from the news, minorities such as Christians and Muslims are actually being greatly persecuted in India by the extremist Hindus such as for example the RSS movement. From some trustworthy sources, I have learned that they are even reading the Mein Kamph of Hitler to get inspired of how to rid India of non-Hindus. And the actual Prime Minister of India, Narendra Modi is himself a member of that organization through his right-wing party the BJP. And indeed Narendra Modi is himself a Hindu-supremacist who endorses persecution of Muslims and Christians in India. It is well-known to everyone who follows the international news that India has fallen even deeper into savagery since Narendra Modi came to power. These “cows and monkey worshipers” were already savages but now their savagery has exceeded all bounds. Anti-Muslim bigotry has been normalized in India under Modi. Muslims are being lynched by Hindu extremist mobs under rumors of eating beef!! Christian nuns are being raped and Christian priests beaten.

yes i know of the general - modi is an asshole - party member of Hindu Nationalist asshats (and like 10 or so other nations - from Poland,Hungry, INDIA, AMERICA, England (Brexit), Bahrain (boot over the Shia - doctors sent to prison for 50 yrs for performing their oaths/convictions), Isreal (even worse thuggery WRT to Palistinians - worse than South Africa of the 1980's).

like the above mentioned nations - 5-10 yrs ago they were all LESS thuggish - than they are today (nationalism is the thread here) - india is one of them.

As you also might already know, in many states in India at present, it is prohibited to eat beef/cows. These beef prohibition laws are the consequences of Modi’s mandate. Modi and extremist Hindus like him have the objective which is captured in their ideology “Hindutva” meaning something like “India for Hindu only.”
It is a very difficult situation that Christians and Muslims are living in India actually. Let me give you some examples of the barbarity and savagery of these “cow and monkey worshipers”.

1. A 71 year old Christian nun raped in her convent! : https://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/14/asia ... index.html
2. A 48 year old Christian nun raped and the perpetrators were acquitted: https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/ ... rape-case/
3. A Muslim man suspected of eating beef killed in India by “cow protectors”: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... protectors

And there are a lot lot more like this. I have seen on YouTube a Christian priest getting beaten with sticks by some 5-6 people. Still on YouTube, I have seen young Muslim men being tied, slapped, kicked and urinated over for being suspected of eating or selling beef. Many are killed just for being suspected of eating or selling beef. On YouTube one can find a lot of these atrocities against the minorities in India. I have to warn that there are many of such videos which are very disturbing. And all these crimes against the minorities are overlooked if not even encouraged by the actual government of India under Narendra Modi.

And as one would think that these savages could not stoop lower than that, then one finds that this is just the tip of the iceberg! Indeed, these idol worshipers are even more barbaric than that. They treat their cows better than their own women over there! Women are treated worse than animals in India. They do not make a difference between a toddler and an old women; every female is at risk in India. The world has already known and was greatly shocked by the gang rape of a young Hindu girl on a bus in India in broad daylight some years ago. But the practice of gang raping of little girls and toddlers is a tradition well-entrenched in India! Check the following to witness the depth of their barbarism:

1. Toddler and five year old gang raped in India. (17 October 2015)
Site, an article from The Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 97816.html

2. 14 year old girl raped by army personnel gang. (29 Dec 2015)
Site: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 89501.html

3. 7 year old girl raped and murdered by Hindu neighbor. (9 February 2017)
Site: http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... 78--1.html

4. 22 month old raped by a 45 year old Hindu man. (May 7, 2017)

Warning: The following link is from Dailymail online. The article provides photos of the toddler. Those with heart conditions are highly advised to NOT click the link and watch. It is just too heart breaking.

Site: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... India.html

And this is just a very small sample of what happens in the barbaric country known as India. It is reported that in 2015, there were about 34,651 women rape cases reported in India, but experts says that this figure greatly underestimate the gravity of the situation in India as many more rape cases are not reported due to the victims fearing negative judgment of their people. The number of reported rape cases has risen by 50% in the last five years in India.
And as I already mentioned, the most known and brutal rape, which was covered by international media, occurred in New Delhi in 2012. The victim of the rape was a young medical student who was gang raped on a public bus, beaten, tortured, and then left to die!!!

As everyone can witness for themselves: the Hindus abandoned God, the Almighty and instead they chose to worship cows, monkeys, elephants, rats and whatnot and as a result they became much more worse than animals.

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

I do not know of the particulars you mention above - just know Modi is an asshole.

I don't know if what you say per particulars is accurate, maybe it is.

if so - that is BAD! clearly!.

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however I don't thing your are honest in your views of Hindus per general - you say above:


"the Hindus abandoned God"


such mentality is one of the thug.

I'm an Athiest, and have known at least 2 Hindus that i called friends. they were not thugs nor did they deny their conscience (anymore than i have though an athiest).

I hate Nationalists - but i also hate folks that think all that do not believe in their God are without morals.

are you one of the latter (if you are - I'll be clear here - if you are, we shall having noting to discuss further- and that would be sad - but my conscience shall demand cutting of discourse).

just letting you know.



BTW i do know a little more about islam than Hinduism (though american, americans are ignroanouses(sp)).


Alawites - worship Ali as semi-devine, so not "really" Shia (though they claim to be, the mainline Shia do not aggree) - similar to Christians vs Jews in views of divinity (though person that was is not the same person).....................have a full 1-percent of population in Syria - which is mostly Sunni (so not Shia nor Alawite!!!) - but by history of happenstance they ended up ruling over Syria since the 1960's.

Ahmadiyya are even farther from mainline islam than the Alawites! they affirm a latter prophet! they are like my Mormons.

and yes i know about the "twelvers" (this term is disparaging one - said by the Sunni about the Shia ---------------- you know the last "hidden imam - who is in a cave somewhere these last 800 yrs and when he returns the Great Tribulation/End of World will occur.

Shia deny shellfish, Sunni ok with.

Shia mandate a - "blood line" from Mohommed per "Caliphs" Sunni are opposite and affirm election of.

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we gave even moreso "hertics" Babbism and the latter Bahi fits in here...................


more heretical than Ahmadiyyan "Muslims", fully new religions.

FYI, Bahi was a disciple of Babb.


I'm too dumb to figure out how nesting quotes work here - my reply is all fkup up in the nest.

you can figure my reply out though.