Frailty of scriptures

[Dontaskme]

I'm saying, quite simply, that it would make all the difference in the world if the Supreme Being did speak. .

But the Supreme Being is speaking...you first have to exist before this statement can be spoken, aka sound heard as words with meaning attached as known instantly in the hearing. As sound and the hearing of sound are inseparably one in the same moment.



.

[QuantumT]

Funny, though: you aren't poking the Dhamapada or the Gita, and though it's wide open to it, you're not even taking a shot at the Quran...why is that?

I poke all who believe in scriptures. The Quran is also "scriptures". The Tanakh, the New Testament and the Quran = Scriptures.

Did I mention that the Quran is also scriptures?

[Averroes]

Islamic tradition is like Judiac (i.e. Moses wrote the Torah), Muslims believe Mohammed wrote the Koran, and that the Koran was "fixed" from his time.

In Islam, Muslims believe that God, the Almighty had revealed His Words to some human beings whom He had chosen and who were then called prophets or messengers of God. And these Messengers (peace be upon them) then had the responsibility of conveying those Words to the people to whom this message was/is intended. In Islam, Muslims believe that there were many prophets (pbut) sent by God, the Almighty to mankind. For example, among many others there were Prophet Noah, Prophet Abraham, Prophet Moses, Prophet Jesus Christ and the last and final Messenger Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them all). All the Messengers of God were human beings and are considered to be only human beings in Islam. Muslims do not believe and strongly reject that God, the Almighty has an equal or that God, the Almighty has wives, and children (whether sons or daughters) as some other religions make it a fundamental tenet of their faith. In Islam this is analogous to being an atheist/disbeliever. And also for the case of someone who thinks that God, the Almighty came on earth in the form of a man who eats and drinks and then goes to the toilet, such a person is also considered in Islam on par with a disbeliever/atheist.

Now, technically speaking Muslims do not believe that the Prophets of God wrote (in the sense of authored) any of the scriptures that were revealed to them. The word “wrote” here can be misinterpreted as “authored.” If this was its construed meaning then it would not be accurately describing the beliefs of the Muslims. So to preclude any possibility of misunderstanding, it is more appropriate to say that the Muslims believe that the Prophets of God, the Almighty took measures to get the Words that were revealed to them by God, the Almighty, transcribed. The word “transcribe” more accurately describe the belief of the Muslims here. This is merely a technical issue, but it is important to emphasize this point in my humble opinion as you intended to talk about Islamic beliefs and traditions. And you also seem to like accuracy and your posts contain at least one occurrence of this word. I like accuracy too!

So the scripture given to Prophet Moses were transcribed by Prophet Moses and were recorded in a Book known as the Torah. Muslims believe that the original Torah is now not available in its pristine purity but it has now been corrupted/modified. And this can be corroborated by a textual analysis of the text available nowadays itself. There are many errors in the Torah available nowadays. Moreover, Jeremiah 8:8 has been interpreted as the Jewish Scriptures themselves acknowledging that it was corrupted. And nowadays again this is relevant as there is the Jewish Talmud which is a filthy book which describes one of the great Messengers of God, the Almighty namely Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) as boiling in very hot excrement as punishment in the Hereafter! This is yet another example of the lying pen of the Jewish scribes at work for us to testify of the veracity of Jeremiah 8:8. And there are many other filthy things in that book as well; for example the slandering of the best of all women, namely Mary, the mother of Prophet Jesus Christ (may Allah be pleased with her) and I prefer not to describe what is said about her in that book here! There are many other examples as well. For example, mention can be made of the fact that if the Torah was transcribed under the supervision of Prophet Moses (peace be upon him), how come we have his death and place of burial mentioned in the Torah itself, namely Deuteronomy 34:5?! Surely this must have been written after his death.

And we also know of the Scripture given to Prophet David (peace be upon him) which was transcribed by Prophet David and was recorded in a Book called the Psalms (or Zaboor in Arabic).

The Scripture given to Prophet Jesus Christ is referred by God, the Almighty in the Holy Quran as the Injeel and it is now thought to be lost. The scriptures which are commonly available nowadays purported to be from Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) are reported to have been written by anonymous authors a hundred years or so after he left this world. And these scriptures do indeed contain many historical and scientific errors according to the biblical scholars themselves. For example the biblical scholars in the Vatican clearly and unambiguously acknowledge historical and scientific errors in their Bible. See this for example: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/prin ... bible-true

And finally, the Scripture revealed to Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was revealed to him over a span of 23 years and was memorized by many of his companions in his life time and also transcribed and compiled in a Book which God, the Almighty Himself calls the Noble Quran. And there is absolutely no errors or contradictions whatsoever in the Holy Quran. All Islamic scholars and many scientists as well have acknowledged that there is no error in the Holy Quran. I testify to that as well. Moreover, the Holy Quran is replete with scientific statements which have only been discovered recently by modern science like for example the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe among so many others to the point that many scientists ended up embracing Islam when they came to know about these. Some names: medical doctor Maurice Bucaille (from Christianity), medical professor Tejatat Tejasen (from Buddhism), Prof Milan (former atheist) and many others. Even though I have touched on this on other threads on this forum, this subject requires to be considered in more depth if we are to do justice to it.

fact is there were at least 4 korans, i.e. varients - and the earliest versions were most likely not written by Mohammed.

The Holy Quran is the revelation which was given to Prophet Muhammad by God, the Almighty through His Angel Gabriel. Everything which Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) gave to Prophet Muhammad as revelation from God, the Almighty is known as the Holy Quran. And from a purely historical point of view, everything attested as revelation from God, the Almighty by the blessed Prophet himself is called the Holy Quran.

There is only one Quran, which is the revelation given to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and which he conveyed with his own mouth to the people. We can talk about this subject into more detail if you want but you will have to bring references and we also have to go into the subtleties of the Arabic language. There is no problem on my side!

the other Muslim tradition is that the Koran was written in Saudi Arabia - historical evidence clearly shows it was written in Jordan/Iraq

The Holy Quran is now being printed and copied in many places all over the world, but the fact remains that it was revealed and completely compiled in Arabia about 1400 years ago. Now, Saudi Arabia is a rather recent state founded in 1932 CE. And historical evidence definitely shows that the Holy Quran was completed before 633 CE. The blessed Prophet (pbuh) passed away in 632 CE, and before that the Holy Quran was completed, completely memorized by various of his companions and recorded on parchment and other materials as well. After the Prophet’s death, the Holy Quran was fixed and it will remain like that until the Day of Judgment. Moreover, God, the Almighty Himself has taken the personal responsibility of guarding the Holy Quran from corruption till the end of the times. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran:

• Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.[Quran, interpretation of meaning, 15:9]

As an aside to anyone who might be interested in philosophy, I have a personal experience to share about my interaction with the Holy Quran. We have seen how in the past many people in the Prophet’s lifetime had memorized the whole Quran and also today itself we can observe many Muslims, some as young as 5-7 years old, have memorized the whole Holy Quran. Personally now, I have observed that since I started to study Islam about 15 years ago and later when I embraced Islam and studied the Holy Quran even more seriously, my memory has so much greatly improved. It is just mind blowing how the study of the Holy Quran made my memory so good. Moreover, all my previous modest intellectual abilities have been as if multiplied by many folds through the study of the Holy Quran. There are great intellectual insights that I get when I read or listen to the Holy Quran in Arabic. Surely, I was not like that before I had embraced Islam. Now my fundamental motivation for telling you all this is as follows. I have known many of you here for a year now and others for many years from another forum. So, I more or less know your abilities and I can judge that some are already much better than what I was before I embraced Islam. Now, I think to myself, if your intellectual abilities were to be multiplied as mine has, then you might attain great intellectuals heights that is unimaginable and unthinkable to me! Do the experience and test this for yourselves for example by starting to study the Holy Quran in a language you understand and by often listening to the recitation of the Holy Quran in Arabic in a clean place, i.e. not in the batheroom. There are many YouTube audios on this. I like reciter Mishary Al-Afasy and reciter Abdulbasit Abdussamad. I can make a compilation for anyone interested. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran:

• O mankind, there has to come to you instruction from your Lord and healing for what is in the breasts and guidance and mercy for the believers. [Quran, translation of meaning 10:57]
  
  Satan threatens you with poverty and orders you to immorality, while Allah promises you forgiveness from Him and bounty. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. [Quran, interpretation of meaning, 2:268]
  
  And [remember] when your Lord proclaimed, 'If you are grateful, I will surely increase you [in favor]; but if you deny, indeed, My punishment is severe.' "[Quran, translation of meaning 14:7]

Do not forget members to thank and praise our Creator, the Most Merciful for the blessings and favors that He has bestowed on us. As He, the Most Generous says in the Holy Quran, He will increase us in favors if we are grateful to Him. It is very easy to thank the Lord, the Almighty in Islam. I just say in Arabic “Alhamdulillah” which means all praises and thanks be to God, the Almighty. And I often ask for His forgiveness by saying in Arabic, “Astaghfirullah,” which means I seek forgiveness from Allah. And that’s it!

more accurately:

3 billion (christian)
2.5 billion (muslim)
800 million (hindu)
400? million (buddists - yes some forms are religious with God/s)

Yes. Islam is the second most popular religion in the world after Christianity; that is correct. And it is also the most practiced as well as the fastest growing religion in the world according to Western statistical agencies themselves. But even more accurately than what you wrote: the Hindus are around 990 millions in India. And there are closer to about 500 million Buddhists worldwide. Many Hindus and Buddhists have embraced Islam in the past and are also embracing Islam in great numbers as we are discussing! As a matter of fact, the largest Muslim nation in the world are Asians who are descendants of former Buddhists and Hindus. They are the Indonesians and the Malaysians. About 250 millions Muslims live in Indonesia and Malaysia combined. Indeed, before Islam spread there through a handful of sailors who traded with them at around the 12-13th century CE, Indonesia and Malaysia were mostly Buddhists and partly Hindus. Buddhism is basically (with differences though) an offshoot of Hinduism as Siddharta Gawtama, the founder of Buddhism, was a Hindu prince of the Kshatriya caste (second caste) in the Hindu caste system. According to historical sources, the early Indonesians and Malaysians embraced Islam because they were impressed by the impeccable manners and honesty of these early Muslim sailing traders! Were it not for these handful of Muslim sailors with impeccable manners and ethics, today these people would still be Buddhists and Hindus!

[Averroes]

Funny, though: you aren't poking the Dhamapada or the Gita, and though it's wide open to it, you're not even taking a shot at the Quran...why is that?

I poke all who believe in scriptures. The Quran is also "scriptures". The Tanakh, the New Testament and the Quran = Scriptures.

Did I mention that the Quran is also scriptures?

That is great, then let us talk about the Holy Quran!

[QuantumT]

I'm saying, quite simply, that it would make all the difference in the world if the Supreme Being did speak.

Never gonna happen. Never has happened.
For X to speak, X needs to exist. Thus no speaking.

If I'm proven wrong, I'll give you a million dollars, a blowjob and an apology

[QuantumT]

That is great, then let us talk about the Holy Quran!

I think I'll pass. It would be a waste of time.
Discussions between hardcore theists and hardcore atheists are always conflicted and in vain. Would make no sense to start!

[Immanuel Can]

I'm saying, quite simply, that it would make all the difference in the world if the Supreme Being did speak.

Never gonna happen. Never has happened.
For X to speak, X needs to exist. Thus no speaking.

If I'm proven wrong,...

...If you're proven wrong, you'll know it. If you're proven right, neither of us ever would know.

That's not an argument, or if it is, it's merely a prudential one. Basically, it's just a fact.

[QuantumT]

...If you're proven wrong, you'll know it. If you're proven right, neither of us ever would know.

That's not an argument, or if it is, it's merely a prudential one. Basically, it's just a fact.

I disagree. The God of scriptures has an Ego larger than the universe. If he was there, he'd tell us! Repeatedly!

[Immanuel Can]

I disagree. The God of scriptures has an Ego larger than the universe. If he was there, he'd tell us! Repeatedly!

This reminds me of Christ's words, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." I imagine you're right; but would anybody be listening?

[gaffo]

Islamic tradition is like Judiac (i.e. Moses wrote the Torah), Muslims believe Mohammed wrote the Koran, and that the Koran was "fixed" from his time.

In Islam, Muslims believe that God, the Almighty had revealed His Words to some human beings whom He had chosen and who were then called prophets or messengers of God. And these Messengers (peace be upon them) then had the responsibility of conveying those Words to the people to whom this message was/is intended. In Islam, Muslims believe that there were many prophets (pbut) sent by God, the Almighty to mankind. For example, among many others there were Prophet Noah, Prophet Abraham, Prophet Moses, Prophet Jesus Christ

yes I know this (why are you posting a nonsequiter here - was this thread about the nature of recongizing prophet per the many religions?).

Judiasm and Christianity (and i assume Hinduism as well) - affirms your view above.

there were many prophets from many land sent by God - most never lived in a time of writting or a culture that had writting - and so we will never hear their words about "God".

most prophets - lived and died without a trace - IMO - this is the theology of your Koran, as well as the old Testement and New one concerning if majority of prophets wrote a book or not.

and the last and final Messenger Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

clarify please - does the Koran state that Mohammed is to be the last prophet?

cite please

I know Christians claim that "the bible is fixed" due to the author of Revelation stating that "one should not ammend the work" - but the Christians are dissinginous, in that they equate the work Revelation - with the Bible overall - author of Rev was only saying "dont fuck with my work and add to it - not "the bible is fixed/sealed.

bible is wide open - for more books to be added and more prophets to preach.

Christians are full of shit in "bible is fixed" bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!! - Revelation is fixed -not the damn Bible!

All the Messengers of God were human beings and are considered to be only human beings in Islam.

really?

was Gabriel a human?

was he a messenger of/for God? (for Mary and Mohammed at the least).

Muslims do not believe and strongly reject that God, the Almighty has an equal or that God, the Almighty has wives, and children (whether sons or daughters) as some other religions make it a fundamental tenet of their faith.

ok, Jews got ride of YHWH's Wife Ashariah millinia ago too.

as well as his dad El.

and brother Baal.

In Islam this is analogous to being an atheist/disbeliever.

I don't understand how you can equae polytheism with athiesm.

welcome understanding/reply/clarification of how they are the same - from you.

And also for the case of someone who thinks that God, the Almighty came on earth in the form of a man who eats and drinks and then goes to the toilet, such a person is also considered in Islam on par with a disbeliever/atheist.

why so? refer to above. I fail to see the equivalency.

Now, technically speaking Muslims do not believe that the Prophets of God wrote (in the sense of authored) any of the scriptures that were revealed to them. The word “wrote” here can be misinterpreted as “authored.” If this was its construed meaning then it would not be accurately describing the beliefs of the Muslims.

I understand what you are saying here.

you are a "Fundamentalist" as most Muslims are (most are Wabbists/Salifists - not Sufies.

similar in the Christian camp too - though more even between Sufie Christians and Bible thumpers Baptists/than in Muslim circles (what? you guys 3/4'rds fundie now?)

So to preclude any possibility of misunderstanding, it is more appropriate to say that the Muslims believe that the Prophets of God, the Almighty took measures to get the Words that were revealed to them by God, the Almighty, transcribed. The word “transcribe” more accurately describe the belief of the Muslims here. This is merely a technical issue, but it is important to emphasize this point in my humble opinion as you intended to talk about Islamic beliefs and traditions. And you also seem to like accuracy and your posts contain at least one occurrence of this word. I like accuracy too!

glad to hear it . we share at least this in common.

So the scripture given to Prophet Moses were transcribed by Prophet Moses and were recorded in a Book known as the Torah. Muslims believe that the original Torah is now not available in its pristine purity but it has now been corrupted/modified.

really - can you tell me more about this? refer to links/etc..............Islam is IDENTICAL to Judaism!!!!!!!! - same theology/same angels/same God etc!!!!!!!!!

there is nothing in the Torah that is counter to Islam theologically (unlike the New Testament - where i have heard your argument from Muslims of it being corrupted (i.e. made man Jesus into a God - via latter translations/edits over the centuries).

And this can be corroborated by a textual analysis of the text available nowadays itself. There are many errors in the Torah available nowadays.

with respect, you are utterly wrong here - he Torah is one of the most accurately reproduced work down the centuries (Jewish scribs are tops in ability - lowest error rate of any scribes the world over - for centuries).

the Septuigent(sp) (Greek Torah - has some books not in the Hebrew Torah - and its wording is different due to translation from Hebrw to Greek - but all latter copies of both the Sept and Masoranic(sp) texts are VERY CLOSE to original works

(refer to Dead Sea Scrol Qumran Essene Jews work of the Torah - it reads like the Rabbinic one - though centuries divide them!

Moreover, Jeremiah 8:8 has been interpreted as the Jewish Scriptures themselves acknowledging that it was corrupted.

the only thing corrupt in Jeremiah is the CHRISTIAN interpretation of a JEWISH TEXT (you may not know this but Judiasm IS NOT Christianity - n fact Judiasm is identical to ISLAM theologically - and NOT in comformity to Christianity (in Judiams, it is heresy to claim any man - even "Jesus" as a god/GOD or even God's Son.)

Christian's have their bullshit "prophesy" in Jeremiah as referencing to Jesus in some vague way - that is not an interpertatinn of Jeramiah Jews affirm.

And nowadays again this is relevant as there is the Jewish Talmud which is a filthy book which describes one of the great Messengers of God, the Almighty namely Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) as boiling in very hot excrement as punishment in the Hereafter!

Talmud has hate verses about Goyim having lesser souls (or no souls in effect) than cattle.


Talmud is not the Torah, nor the Mishna for that matter.

each work stands alone - for you to judge.

This is yet another example of the lying pen of the Jewish scribes at work for us to testify of the veracity of Jeremiah 8:8. And there are many other filthy things in that book as well; for example the slandering of the best of all women, namely Mary, the mother of Prophet Jesus Christ (may Allah be pleased with her) and I prefer not to describe what is said about her in that book here!

didn't know Talmud said the above. thanks for education me on this particular.

no fan of Talmud BTW.

I don't like the Torah much either - like "Minor Prophets" (latter part of old testament) most of all myself.


not a huge fan of New Testament either (hate Paul's works) - like Gospel of Mark (Jesus is the most human in this work) and James (help the poor, salvation by works)

There are many other examples as well. For example, mention can be made of the fact that if the Torah was transcribed under the supervision of Prophet Moses (peace be upon him), how come we have his death and place of burial mentioned in the Torah itself, namely Deuteronomy 34:5?! Surely this must have been written after his death.

yes, I've heard that argument - a good reason to reject the Judiac traditional claim that Moses wrote the Torah.

And we also know of the Scripture given to Prophet David (peace be upon him) which was transcribed by Prophet David and was recorded in a Book called the Psalms (or Zaboor in Arabic).

ok

The Scripture given to Prophet Jesus Christ is referred by God, the Almighty in the Holy Quran as the Injeel and it is now thought to be lost.

"injeel" - interesting, did not know this - is this an arabic word? of so what does it mean?

just curious.

The scriptures which are commonly available nowadays purported to be from Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) are reported to have been written by anonymous authors a hundred years or so after he left this world.

Some are older than others:

oldest was "q" - now lost forever sadly.
then Saul/Paul's 8 letters (20-30 yrs after Jesus's death)
then Gospel of Mark (40 yrs after death of Jesus) - in this gosp Jesus is the most human/least godlike.
then Gospel of Matthew/Luke (i suspect Matt might be 5 yrs older - but who knows - (both 55 yrs after Jesus' death)
lastly Gospel of John/The Apocalypse of John/Peter 2.........70 yrs after Jesus' death.

And these scriptures do indeed contain many historical and scientific errors according to the biblical scholars themselves. For example the biblical scholars in the Vatican clearly and unambiguously acknowledge historical and scientific errors in their Bible. See this for example: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/prin ... bible-true

ok

And finally, the Scripture revealed to Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was revealed to him over a span of 23 years and was memorized by many of his companions in his life time and also transcribed and compiled in a Book which God, the Almighty Himself calls the Noble Quran. And there is absolutely no errors or contradictions whatsoever in the Holy Quran.

yes I'm aware of your tradition - but like "moses wrote the Torah" - its wrong.

history refutes your claim.

refer to my earlier post - 3-4 Koran's - all but one burned on order of 7th century caliph in Cairo.

it folly to debate history.

facts are facts Sir.

All Islamic scholars and many scientists as well have acknowledged that there is no error in the Holy Quran.

no, not scientists, maybe islamic "scholars" - then they lack scholarship if it is so.


again history is history, and hysteria will not rewrite historical facts (i.e. reality - real world events).

I testify to that as well. Moreover,

then you reject history and reason and so are wasting my time.

the Holy Quran is replete with scientific statements

bullshit - its the same as the Rig Vada, Mahabarattah, War Scroll, Secrets of Enoch, Book of Jesher, The Kaballa, and 100 other "God breahed texts from the last 5000 yrs).

fact is there were at least 4 korans, i.e. varients - and the earliest versions were most likely not written by Mohammed.

The Holy Quran is the revelation which was given to Prophet Muhammad by God, the Almighty through His Angel Gabriel. Everything which Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) gave to Prophet Muhammad as revelation from God, the Almighty is known as the Holy Quran. And from a purely historical point of view, everything attested as revelation from God, the Almighty by the blessed Prophet himself is called the Holy Quran.

There is only one Quran,

only becuase 1300 yrs ago a caliph ordered the destruction of 3 Koranic variants.


- don't waste my time!!!!!!!!!!!!! i value HISTORICAL FACTS - i have no time to debate with folks that deny historical facts out of personal pride/bias/indoctrination (refuse to acknowledge FACTS).

which is the revelation given to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and which he conveyed with his own mouth to the people. We can talk about this subject into more detail if you want but you will have to bring references and we also have to go into the subtleties of the Arabic language. There is no problem on my side!

sounds good to me - just note i value learning, discussion and agreeing to disagree.

i do not value pigheaded rejection of historical facts because they contradict tradition religious indoctrination.


the former is worth my time, the latter is a waste of it!

the other Muslim tradition is that the Koran was written in Saudi Arabia - historical evidence clearly shows it was written in Jordan/Iraq

The Holy Quran is now being printed and copied in many places all over the world, but the fact remains that it was revealed and completely compiled in Arabia about 1400 years ago. Now, Saudi Arabia is a rather recent state founded in 1932 CE. And historical evidence definitely shows that the Holy Quran was completed before 633 CE. The blessed Prophet (pbuh) passed away in 632 CE, and before that the Holy Quran was completed, completely memorized by various of his companions and recorded on parchment and other materials as well. After the Prophet’s death, the Holy Quran was fixed and it will remain like that until the Day of Judgment. Moreover, God, the Almighty Himself has taken the personal responsibility of guarding the Holy Quran from corruption till the end of the times. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran:

• Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.[Quran, interpretation of meaning, 15:9]

Lol, All you are doing is affirming my statement as true! (hell I'm not an Muslim - but thanks for affirming that i know what i talk about concerning your tradition!).

statement being "muslims believe koran was writtin in SA"............................than i say they/you are wrnng, it was written in Iraq.

then you say i wrong. etc.............

Koran has several gnostic chrsitian/judiac links - for instance Iblis' refusal to bow down before Adam is from a 200 century Gnostic Christian work.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/398/398-h/398-h.htm

As an aside to anyone who might be interested in philosophy, I have a personal experience to share about my interaction with the Holy Quran. We have seen how in the past many people in the Prophet’s lifetime had memorized the whole Quran and also today itself we can observe many Muslims, some as young as 5-7 years old, have memorized the whole Holy Quran. Personally now, I have observed that since I started to study Islam about 15 years ago and later when I embraced Islam and studied the Holy Quran even more seriously, my memory has so much greatly improved. It is just mind blowing how the study of the Holy Quran made my memory so good. Moreover, all my previous modest intellectual abilities have been as if multiplied by many folds through the study of the Holy Quran. There are great intellectual insights that I get when I read or listen to the Holy Quran in Arabic. Surely, I was not like that before I had embraced Islam. Now my fundamental motivation for telling you all this is as follows. I have known many of you here for a year now and others for many years from another forum. So, I more or less know your abilities and I can judge that some are already much better than what I was before I embraced Islam. Now, I think to myself, if your intellectual abilities were to be multiplied as mine has, then you might attain great intellectuals heights that is unimaginable and unthinkable to me! Do the experience and test this for yourselves for example by starting to study the Holy Quran in a language you understand and by often listening to the recitation of the Holy Quran in Arabic in a clean place, i.e. not in the batheroom. There are many YouTube audios on this. I like reciter Mishary Al-Afasy and reciter Abdulbasit Abdussamad. I can make a compilation for anyone interested. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran:

• O mankind, there has to come to you instruction from your Lord and healing for what is in the breasts and guidance and mercy for the believers. [Quran, translation of meaning 10:57]
  
  Satan threatens you with poverty and orders you to immorality, while Allah promises you forgiveness from Him and bounty. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. [Quran, interpretation of meaning, 2:268]
  
  And [remember] when your Lord proclaimed, 'If you are grateful, I will surely increase you [in favor]; but if you deny, indeed, My punishment is severe.' "[Quran, translation of meaning 14:7]

Do not forget members to thank and praise our Creator, the Most Merciful for the blessings and favors that He has bestowed on us. As He, the Most Generous says in the Holy Quran, He will increase us in favors if we are grateful to Him. It is very easy to thank the Lord, the Almighty in Islam. I just say in Arabic “Alhamdulillah” which means all praises and thanks be to God, the Almighty. And I often ask for His forgiveness by saying in Arabic, “Astaghfirullah,” which means I seek forgiveness from Allah. And that’s it!

more accurately:

3 billion (christian)
2.5 billion (muslim)
800 million (hindu)
400? million (buddists - yes some forms are religious with God/s)

Yes. Islam is the second most popular religion in the world after Christianity; that is correct. And it is also the most practiced as well as the fastest growing religion in the world according to Western statistical agencies themselves. But even more accurately than what you wrote: the Hindus are around 990 millions in India. And there are closer to about 500 million Buddhists worldwide. Many Hindus and Buddhists have embraced Islam in the past and are also embracing Islam in great numbers as we are discussing! As a matter of fact, the largest Muslim nation in the world are Asians who are descendants of former Buddhists and Hindus. They are the Indonesians and the Malaysians. About 250 millions Muslims live in Indonesia and Malaysia combined. Indeed, before Islam spread there through a handful of sailors who traded with them at around the 12-13th century CE, Indonesia and Malaysia were mostly Buddhists and partly Hindus. Buddhism is basically (with differences though) an offshoot of Hinduism as Siddharta Gawtama, the founder of Buddhism, was a Hindu prince of the Kshatriya caste (second caste) in the Hindu caste system. According to historical sources, the early Indonesians and Malaysians embraced Islam because they were impressed by the impeccable manners and honesty of these early Muslim sailing traders! Were it not for these handful of Muslim sailors with impeccable manners and ethics, today these people would still be Buddhists and Hindus!

ya, concur with your assesment. though an athiest, i have nothing against your God or religion - no fan of fundie mindedness, but i'll just have to live with that. (BTW there is nothing in Islam to demand fundie-mindeness anymore than in any other religion).

there are plenty fundie-minded atheists - sadly, fundieness is a personal/personality trait (folks that must have certainty world view - opposite of those ok with uncertainity in all things (be they religious or athiest).

[Averroes]

and the last and final Messenger Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

clarify please - does the Koran state that Mohammed is to be the last prophet?

cite please

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing. [Quran, 33:40]

[Averroes]

All the Messengers of God were human beings and are considered to be only human beings in Islam.

really?

was Gabriel a human?

was he a messenger of/for God? (for Mary and Mohammed at the least).

You are right. Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) is an angel Messenger of God, the Almighty who carried the Revelations to the human Messengers of God, the Almighty. In Islam, Muslims believe that Angel Gabriel (pbuh) was created by God, and thus he had a beginning and one day Angel Gabriel (pbuh) will die. Every creature that God created will die one day, and every creature will be resurrected by God to be judged by Him, the Almighty on Judgment Day.
Now Angel Gabriel is a Messenger to Prophets and not to normal human beings like you and me. Normal human beings like you and me have only human Messengers to inform us about the Words of God, the Almighty. And it is in this sense, i.e. from the point of view of a normal human being, that I was referring to in my statement. However, you are absolutely right to have provided this clarification. I have to thank you for this! So thank you.

[Averroes]

In Islam this is analogous to being an atheist/disbeliever.

I don't understand how you can equae polytheism with athiesm.

welcome understanding/reply/clarification of how they are the same - from you.

It is very simple actually. The result for atheism and polytheism is the same. They are both deniers. Testifying to the Absolutely Oneness of God, the Almighty is the most important of all commandments. The atheist deny the very existence of God the Almighty. And the polytheist deny the Absolutely Oneness of God, the Almighty. As a result, a person who dies in either of these states, ends up in the same place after death.

[Averroes]

And also for the case of someone who thinks that God, the Almighty came on earth in the form of a man who eats and drinks and then goes to the toilet, such a person is also considered in Islam on par with a disbeliever/atheist.

why so? refer to above. I fail to see the equivalency.

This is again very simple. God, the Almighty has essential attributes and some of these attributes are: the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsisting, the All-Knowing, the Most Compassionate, the Creator of all things, the Absolute Sovereign, and many other attributes. And a man who has had a beginning and walks the earth and has to eat and drink for his subsistence and who has to relieve himself after he has eaten, and who is ignorant of many things, cannot ever have the attributes of God, the Almighty applied to him. Equating a mere created being such as a man with God, the Almighty is denying the essential attributes of God, the Almighty. As a result such a person upon death ends up with the same fate as the atheist and the polytheist.

[Averroes]

in Judiams, it is heresy to claim any man - even "Jesus" as a god/GOD or even God's Son.)

I agree that it is a big sin for a man to say that he is God or a son of God. This is strictly forbidden in Islam and in the Holy Quran. But not in the Jewish Bible available nowadays! Doesn’t the Jewish Torah nowadays itself say of Israel/Jacob that he is a son of God?

• 22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, Israel is my first-born son,
  23 and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me”; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.’”[Exodus 4:22-23]

And moreover in Psalms 82:6-7, it is said the following:

• I say, “You are gods,
  sons of the Most High, all of you;
  nevertheless, you shall die like men,
  and fall like any prince.”[Psalms 82:6-7]

__________

The Scripture given to Prophet Jesus Christ is referred by God, the Almighty in the Holy Quran as the Injeel and it is now thought to be lost.

"injeel" - interesting, did not know this - is this an arabic word? of so what does it mean?

just curious.

It is good to be curious about these things. Let me quote you a verse from the Holy Quran which can give you some context about the word “Injeel.”

• [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah].
  
  And he will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."
  
  She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.
  
  And He will teach him the Book, and wisdom and the Taurat, and the Injeel.
  
  And (make him) a Messenger to the Children of Israel, (saying), ‘Indeed, I have come to you with a sign from your Lord – that I design for you from clay (that which is) like the form of a bird, then I breath into it and it becomes a bird by the permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper and give life to the dead by the permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed, in that is surely a sign for you, if you are believers. [Quran 3:45-49]

Some people have translated “Injeel” as Gospel. In French, the word “Gospel” is translated as “Evangile,” which is rather close phonetically to the Arabic “Injeel.”

________

refer to my earlier post - 3-4 Koran's - all but one burned on order of 7th century caliph in Cairo.

it folly to debate history.

facts are facts Sir.

That is your claim. I do not accept that. There is only one Holy Quran. As I already said, whatever the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) attested as such, is the Holy Quran. Anything which is not in accordance with what has come out of his mouth or acknowledged as such by the blessed Prophet himself(pbuh) is not the Holy Quran. It is true that the third Caliph of Islam namely Uthman Ibn Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) burned some manuscripts, but the Muslims dispute that these books were the Holy Quran. If you say there is more than one Quran, then I have to ask you to bring the evidence of the different alleged Qurans. Now you might say that since the books were burned you cannot produce them as evidence. And I will understand. But now, since you cannot produce them as evidence then you cannot claim that they were Holy Quran variants! From the Muslim history books, from which people learned that Uthman Ibn Affan burn some manuscripts, it is also said that these manuscripts were not in accordance with what the Holy Prophet attested as the Holy Quran. So, for the Muslims what were burned by Uthman ibn Affan were not the Holy Quran! And that’s history! And also basic logic!