Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:29 pm

philosopher wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:10 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:01 pm
philosopher wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:42 pm


I hope not.

Danish People's Party would probably like him (Trump). They are amongst the largest and most powerful political parties in the Parliament.
The Danish People's Party is also the party with the least educated voters (according to surveys).

I'm leftist though, I'm voting red-green and I dislike virtually everything about Trump.
Not surprising and I share that dislike.

There is one issue I am watching closely though to see if he is just an idiot or an idiot savant.

The savant part is that the best route to survival is to cooperate instead of compete and he seems to be trying to cooperate with our worst enemies, so to speak, of China and Russia. I think glasnost was a decent idea in Regan's day and could be just as useful and profitable for both sides today. Making an enemy a friend is better than a war of violence as trade is better for all.

Regards
DL
I find it very surprising that Americans haven't yet figured out Trump is supported by Russia. Even long before Trump was elected, there was news at least in Denmark and other european countries I guess, that Trump was supported by Russia. So was Le-Pen in France, but the Russian attempt in France failed, luckily, for now.

I don't think Trump is stupid. He is a genious and he knows how to manipulate the public. The suprising thing though, is that normally you would try to do it in a more "hidden" way, not that obvious as Trump does. To make enemies his friends, is so obvious it should call for a martial court against Trump.

But it seems not. I read in the news recently that the vast majority of Americans support Trump and his approval ratings are skyrocketing.

Which is sad news. Because Trump is the worst hate-speaking Head of State in the western world, since WW2.

As a Dane I am very much scared of this fact, because I fear Trump/U.S. will sell the baltic nations to Putin and abandon NATO.
After all, Trump is not doing anything good for America or American interests. Trump is serving Russia.

Please throw Trump administration in the trash. I do not want to be part of Putin's reign of terror.
Oh wonderful, now we have moronic Danes feeding yank paranoia.

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by Greatest I am » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:09 pm

philosopher wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:10 pm
To make enemies his friends, is so obvious it should call for a martial court against Trump.
Ronald Regan began glasnost and it was seen as a good anti-cold war policy.

What do you see wrong in making friends with Russia and China?

What is wrong in making friends with your enemy?

Regards
DL

philosopher
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by philosopher » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:12 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:09 pm
philosopher wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:10 pm
To make enemies his friends, is so obvious it should call for a martial court against Trump.
Ronald Regan began glasnost and it was seen as a good anti-cold war policy.

What do you see wrong in making friends with Russia and China?

What is wrong in making friends with your enemy?

Regards
DL
Because it is like giving in to the enemy. It signals to the outside world and other enemies that if they (the enemies) put enough pressure on the U.S. the U.S. will give in and loosen up. In short, Trump has rewarded North Korea laying pressure on the U.S. It makes the U.S. seem weak.

North Korea, Russia and China are the only winners. Not the western world and the U.S. These are the losers.

Btw. Ronald Reagan did not begin glasnost. The Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbatjov began the glasnost.

The U.S. had no say in the run of the Soviet Union, it fell apart from within.

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Kayla
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by Kayla » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:13 am

philosopher wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:55 pm

I'm all in favor of free speech - to a degree. Even to a large degree, but there must be limits, for the reasons above.
fair enough, but

lets say I am told someone is spewing hate speech, but I am not allowed to hear it myself, because the government or a bunch of antifa guys or whatever have already determined its hate speech and stopped it

what conceivable reason can there be for me to just take their word for it?

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:32 am

Exactly, and good point.

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by Belinda » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:58 pm

Kayla wrote:
lets say I am told someone is spewing hate speech, but I am not allowed to hear it myself, because the government or a bunch of antifa guys or whatever have already determined its hate speech and stopped it

what conceivable reason can there be for me to just take their word for it?
The government can't stop hate speech that has already happened. It can try to stop haters infecting others in the future. I think, I'm quite sure, that you could read or listen to recorded historical hate speech. The reason to take their word for it , then, is that they have identified haters , and with open government you too can investigate the same material and human sources which the government investigated.

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by philosopher » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:10 pm

Kayla wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:13 am
philosopher wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:55 pm

I'm all in favor of free speech - to a degree. Even to a large degree, but there must be limits, for the reasons above.
fair enough, but

lets say I am told someone is spewing hate speech, but I am not allowed to hear it myself, because the government or a bunch of antifa guys or whatever have already determined its hate speech and stopped it

what conceivable reason can there be for me to just take their word for it?
This is why there is a clear division between censorship and illegal speech.

Illegal speech can be censored, or it cannot. In the latter, we have illegal speech but not censorship.

Censorship is when the government stops anyone from speaking freely, by controlling the access to various sources of information.
To illegalize speech means you can say whatever you want, but a judge can impose a punishment for your speech, but not censoring it beforehand.

Censorship is when then government says "this is illegal, you may not hear it" - regardless of what the court might have to say about the matter.
This is a clear breech of basic democratic rights.

To have a court look at any case and the speaker get a chance of public defense in court, is perfectly fine in a democracy.

Anyone should be allowed to hear illegal speeches, but those making the illegal speeches should be brought to a court and judged fairly.

Making a speech/writing illegal does not neccessarily mean it should be censored. Censorship is wrong.

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:58 pm

philosopher wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:12 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:09 pm
philosopher wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:10 pm
To make enemies his friends, is so obvious it should call for a martial court against Trump.
Ronald Regan began glasnost and it was seen as a good anti-cold war policy.

What do you see wrong in making friends with Russia and China?

What is wrong in making friends with your enemy?

Regards
DL
Because it is like giving in to the enemy. It signals to the outside world and other enemies that if they (the enemies) put enough pressure on the U.S. the U.S. will give in and loosen up. In short, Trump has rewarded North Korea laying pressure on the U.S. It makes the U.S. seem weak.

North Korea, Russia and China are the only winners. Not the western world and the U.S. These are the losers.

Btw. Ronald Reagan did not begin glasnost. The Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbatjov began the glasnost.

The U.S. had no say in the run of the Soviet Union, it fell apart from within.
I see a concentration on a trade war as better than an arms war and do not see trade negotiations as profitable for both sides.

All want a trade balance so to say that one wants to profit more than the other, when all the cards are on the table and all see them does not cause the breakdown of any player.

Regards
DL

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:01 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:58 pm
Kayla wrote:
lets say I am told someone is spewing hate speech, but I am not allowed to hear it myself, because the government or a bunch of antifa guys or whatever have already determined its hate speech and stopped it

what conceivable reason can there be for me to just take their word for it?
The government can't stop hate speech that has already happened. It can try to stop haters infecting others in the future. I think, I'm quite sure, that you could read or listen to recorded historical hate speech. The reason to take their word for it , then, is that they have identified haters , and with open government you too can investigate the same material and human sources which the government investigated.
McCarthy identified haters, as you call them, who were anything but haters.

I prefer to make up my own mind and not have an incompetent government do it for me.

Regards
DL

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:06 pm

I agree that it is to a court to decide on who gets muzzled instead of some bias committee of speech police.

Hate speech against the Red Menace was accepted because the Chinese and Japanese were our enemies at the time, and freedom of speech should not be applied dependant on who our enemies temporarily are.

Regards
DL

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by philosopher » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:42 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:06 pm
I agree that it is to a court to decide on who gets muzzled instead of some bias committee of speech police.

Hate speech against the Red Menace was accepted because the Chinese and Japanese were our enemies at the time, and freedom of speech should not be applied dependant on who our enemies temporarily are.

Regards
DL
Hate speech should only illegalize hate speech against people for their traits that they have no say in.

Like ethnicity, nationality, skin color or disabilities.

It certainly should not apply to religion or politics.

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:51 pm

philosopher wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:42 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:06 pm
I agree that it is to a court to decide on who gets muzzled instead of some bias committee of speech police.

Hate speech against the Red Menace was accepted because the Chinese and Japanese were our enemies at the time, and freedom of speech should not be applied dependant on who our enemies temporarily are.

Regards
DL
Hate speech should only illegalize hate speech against people for their traits that they have no say in.

Like ethnicity, nationality, skin color or disabilities.

It certainly should not apply to religion or politics.
In general terms, I agree.

In specific terms, as when at war with Germany for instance, or the South during slave days, hate speech against Germany and the South should be allowed because if hate is not what brings us to war, then we would have to invent or use some other negative adjective and that would be political correctness which I do not favor.

If I go to war, I want to hate the enemy.

Regards
DL

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by philosopher » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:01 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:51 pm
philosopher wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:42 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:06 pm
I agree that it is to a court to decide on who gets muzzled instead of some bias committee of speech police.

Hate speech against the Red Menace was accepted because the Chinese and Japanese were our enemies at the time, and freedom of speech should not be applied dependant on who our enemies temporarily are.

Regards
DL
Hate speech should only illegalize hate speech against people for their traits that they have no say in.

Like ethnicity, nationality, skin color or disabilities.

It certainly should not apply to religion or politics.
In general terms, I agree.

In specific terms, as when at war with Germany for instance, or the South during slave days, hate speech against Germany and the South should be allowed because if hate is not what brings us to war, then we would have to invent or use some other negative adjective and that would be political correctness which I do not favor.

If I go to war, I want to hate the enemy.

Regards
DL
If the enemy truly believes in their leadership/government that pose a threat to you, surely you should hate the enemy.

Hate speech like this should not be prohibited, but I do think it would be a good idea to show mercy to the enemy soldiers who were conscripted against their will and those who did not want to invade your country, but were forced into this. It's only fair that such enemies are treated well.

As in the case of the American Civil War, I don't believe the North invaded south. The south posed a threat to the entire nation, surely the North should hate the south for this.

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by gaffo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:11 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:32 pm
Is hate good?
per extreme environments.

it might not be "good" but necessary.

Stalin/Pol Pot/Hitler/ect.

opposing (and yes hating - not loving thy enemy) such men even via Hate may be fine.

ok by me - an athiest, so not speaking for your God Sophia.



Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:32 pm
Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?
I personally support free speach - and oppose hate speech laws - inlcluding KKK/etc filth.

but i'm a libertarian.

mileage varies per party affiliation.

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

Post by Greatest I am » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:37 am

philosopher wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:01 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:51 pm
philosopher wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:42 pm


Hate speech should only illegalize hate speech against people for their traits that they have no say in.

Like ethnicity, nationality, skin color or disabilities.

It certainly should not apply to religion or politics.
In general terms, I agree.

In specific terms, as when at war with Germany for instance, or the South during slave days, hate speech against Germany and the South should be allowed because if hate is not what brings us to war, then we would have to invent or use some other negative adjective and that would be political correctness which I do not favor.

If I go to war, I want to hate the enemy.

Regards
DL
If the enemy truly believes in their leadership/government that pose a threat to you, surely you should hate the enemy.

Hate speech like this should not be prohibited, but I do think it would be a good idea to show mercy to the enemy soldiers who were conscripted against their will and those who did not want to invade your country, but were forced into this. It's only fair that such enemies are treated well.

As in the case of the American Civil War, I don't believe the North invaded south. The south posed a threat to the entire nation, surely the North should hate the south for this.
Summed up reciprocity is fair play.

If slavery was allowed, none in the U.S. would be exempt from being one.

Rome had more slaves than free men.

Regards
DL

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