Do we owe Muslims another apology?

[Averroes]

Have you tested the ideology of Islam? Is it good to you?

Yes I have tested Islam.

Is it good to you?

Yes. It is the best thing out there. I have also tested all the other major religions before Islam. And by very very far, Islam is the best of all religions.

Now that is not just my opinion on the matter, but the overwhelming majority of the western scholars are of that opinion too. They say that if it was not for Islam and the Muslims, the West would still be plunged in the barbaric era of the Dark Ages for the West. For example, Nietzsche says that the West would still be grovelling in the dust if it was not for the Muslims. All the serious Western historians I have heard, acknowledge the great debt the West owes to the Muslims and Islam for helping them emerged from their barbaric and uncivilized society of the Dark Ages. In a nutshell, they are saying that it was Islam and the Muslims who taught the medieval uncivilized West: manners, science, culture and all the beautiful things we like in our modern world. Another example I can give is this site itself, i.e. Philosophy Now itself is of the opinion that our modern civilization undeniably has Islamic roots:

Europe in the centuries following the fall of the Roman Empire was not a happy place to be – at least for scholars. For the most part, the aristocracy, including kings, were illiterate and, to all intents and purposes, innumerate – applied mathematics in the West involved little more than tallying, which is a sophisticated form of counting on one’s fingers. The clergy, with few exceptions, were likewise poorly educated – most could neither read nor speak Latin, and even among those that could, abilities were generally low.

These mediocre standards were demonstrated with shocking clarity by the wide acceptance of the Donation of Constantine. This was a forged document produced by Pope Stephen III in 752 in order to impose papal authority over kings and bishops. It purported to show that the Emperor Constantine had bequeathed the Roman Empire to the successors of St Peter, the alleged first Bishop of Rome. European kings and bishops believed in the Donation even to the extent of the French king, Pepin, assisting Stephen in his fight with the Lombards, and later, in 1154, of almost everyone accepting Adrian IV’s word that Ireland was his, by papal right, to give to England. Such were the standards of scholarship at the time. The document was proved a forgery – an obvious forgery – in 1440, by Lorenzo Valla.

Thus the intellectual action in the latter half of the first millennium was not within Christendom. Instead, it was happening within Islam, a religion and culture founded by Mohammed (570-632); and it was happening everywhere the Muslim armies had conquered – stretching from southern Spain through north Africa, to the Middle East, Afghanistan, and northern India. This, the Islamic Renaissance, was the most staggering thing the West had seen since the days of Classical Greece, and in many ways it outshone them. It blazed from around 800 to about 1100, and it continued through to the 15th century. It happened in this way.

Reference: https://philosophynow.org/issues/23/It_ ... hat_Did_It

This is a great article written by Prof. Edward Ingram, and I highly recommend to anyone interested in history to read the whole article. It offers much information and it is also beautifully written. But if history does not interest you, then read it anyway; you will then develop an interest in history!

As Prof Edward Ingram says, in the medieval times in the West even the scholars, the aristocracy and the kings were illiterate and innumerate! From there it does not take much imagination to get the picture of how backward the West was before Islam and the Muslims gave them an education and taught them some manners. And more importantly (for our nostrils) the Muslims back then brought to the backward Westerners of the time the science of making soap!!!

There is something very interesting that Prof. Ingram remarked and says in that article, that I would like to comment on:

Although Islam was initially indifferent to learning, the situation soon changed. Around 750, under the influence of the Abbasid caliphs of Baghdad, Arab and other Islamic scholars discovered the works of the Greek philosophers. Then they devoured them, built libraries throughout their vast civilization, and sprinkled these with copies of all that was best of Greek thought. And they did the same with Babylonian, Syrian, Persian, even Chinese texts. They also built observatories, designed scientific instruments, erected mosques of unparalleled elegance, built hospitals, and staffed schools and universities with the finest minds they could find. The Caliph of Baghdad, Al-Mamum (813-877), was exemplary in this respect: he founded a school specifically for the purpose of translating ancient texts, and built a library to support it.

I have remarked that before I embraced Islam, I studied because, well, I was forced to by our modern society structure and my parents. And it was ok. But when I started studying Islam and reading the Holy Quran, I developed a true love and a real thirst for studying and philosophy and thinking in general. It was after I started to study Islam seriously (but not yet embraced) that I started to read Descartes, Hume, Kant, Lock and others. I was not aware of the great Islamic philosophers at that point in my life. That was about 15-16 years ago. Much later when I had already embraced Islam for many years, I came to know about Averroes, Al-Ghazzali, Avicenna, Al-Farabi and so many others. And then suddenly ALL those western philosophers whom I had once judged to be great minds ended up being mere blatant plagiarists of these great Muslim thinkers. Besides, it is for a very good reason that Ibn Rushd (the real Averroes) is called the father of modern philosophy in the West. A Muslim theologian and Jurist was Ibn Rushd and he is the father of modern philosophy!

But anyway, I did not make that relation back then, but in retrospect, it was definitely the reading of the Holy Quran that was at the origin of this drastic change in me. Allah, the Most Generous says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

O mankind! Verily there has come to you an instruction from your Lord and a healing for what is in your breasts and guidance and mercy for the believers. [ Holy Quran, 10:57]

And Allah, the Most Merciful says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

Whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while he is a believer [in Islamic monotheism], We will surely give him a good life, and We will surely pay them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.
So when you recite the Quran, seek refuge in Allah from Shaitaan(Satan), the accursed.
Indeed, he does not have any authority over those who believe and put their trust in their Lord.
His authority is only over those who take him as an ally and those who associate partners with Allah [Quran 16:97-100]

Some of you may not have heard a recitation of the Holy Quran in the original Arabic language. It is indeed very beautiful. I give some links below to palliate this deficiency in your knowledge if that be indeed the case! But first I have to highly recommend that the Holy Quran should be read, listened to and studied in a clean place, i.e. not in the bathroom or any of such kind of filthy places.

1. Al-Fatiha (chapter 1):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6r47L-8uf8
2. At-Teen(chapter 95):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK88FsJ3xQM
3. Al-'Asr (chapter 103): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5iElBopeyA
4. Al-Feel(chapter 105): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbi4cskPKqg


The question now, have you (i.e. anyone reading this) tested it?

Islam says that only God, the Almighty alone should be worshiped. God, the Almighty is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and anything in between. So, I think to myself: as God the Almighty created me and gave me so much when I was not and I had nothing before, then indeed He is the most worthy of my worship and no one or nothing else should be worshiped besides Him. That perfectly makes sense to me. Doesn’t that make sense to anyone else reading this?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Not Islam, but scientists, philosophers and mathematicians who 'just happened' to be muslim. Actually it was islam that ended the 'golden age of islam' (sad irony). Religious extremism only creates mindless morons incapable of rational thought.

https://knowledgenuts.com/2013/12/03/th ... olden-age/

And of course the US destroyed any chance of another era of enlightenment and catapulted them back to the dark ages.

[Averroes]

Not Islam, but scientists, philosophers and mathematicians who 'just happened' to be muslim.

Hi Vegetariantaxidermy, I have liked very much certain things you said about the Muslims in our modern times, like the surgeons reference. It was to the point and in a funny style as well. Got a chuckle from me!

Shame if you ever need surgery in a British hospital. You might be stuck, because most of the surgeons seem to be 'uncivilised' Arabs.

That was very funny indeed. And yes many British surgeons are Muslims.

But about the scientists, philosophers and mathematicians who 'just happened' to be Muslims, I have reservations. In my humble opinion, there is absolutely no doubt that without Islam, there would have been no Muslim scientist, philosopher or mathematician. That might seem tautological in a sense but it is not in another sense. Let me explain. Before Islam, the whole Arabian Peninsula, and the region of the Middle East and the Mediterranean Bassin and the whole world for that matter was plunged deep in paganism and was in the Dark Ages. The pre-Islamic Arabs were then even the lowest of all the civilazation at that time. When Islam, the religion of Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him), was re-established by Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) by the permission of Allah, the Almighty, then in a very short time, the Arabs and the Muslims in general (all Muslims are not Arabs) became the highest and most sophisticated civilization of that time and remained so for many centuries, until the West was educated by these medieval Muslims. So for me and the scholars of this field, there is no doubt that it was Islam, and the Holy Quran who was at the basis and the motor for such a drastic change in human history up to this point in time. So in this sense, without Islam, there is no Muslim scientist, philosopher and mathematician.
If you allow me a personal input, then I would like to say that I have myself experienced this transformative effect of the Holy Quran and Islam in my life. I can say undeniably that for me too before Islam I was plunged deep in a very dark age. And Islam brought the light back to my life. All thanks and praises belongs to Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Generous.

Actually it was islam that ended the 'golden age of islam' (sad irony).

About the reference you made that the Golden age of Islam was ended by the Muslims, here too I disagree greatly. On the link you provided, mention is made of Al-Ghazzali. But Al-Ghazzali, for me is the greatest philosopher of ALL times. People who point finger at Al-Ghazzali certainly do not have a clue about what they are talking about. So with all due respect, be cautious about non philosophers talking about complex philosophical subjects!

As a matter of fact, Al-Ghazzali's achievements in philosophy had already anticipated by about 700 years the philosophy of Hume and Kant, and by about 900 years modern 1950's modal logic! If you get an oportunity to read his book mentioned in the article you linked me to, I.e. The Incoherence of the Philosophers, you will be surprised at the level that this great philosopher has attained. Do not be put down by the title of the book, i.e. The Incoherence of the Philosophers! In fact in this book, the great Al-Ghazzali is, correctly and with unprecedented logical accuracy, destroying the mistakes of another Muslim philosopher, namely Avicenna. Al-Ghazzali did not mean that all philosophy is bad and should be stopped, but we have to be cautious when we philosophize, for we are simply humans and thus we are prone to error. So if he meant that all philosophy was bad then how come he is writting a philosophical treatise about it?? And moreover that work is now the greatest of all works in philosophy!! The point to take here is that he was critisizing some of the erroneous positions of Avicenna. And he was right. Later Averroes also said that Avicenna was wrong. But anyway, all these Muslims be it Avicenna, Averroes and Al-Ghazzali were great philosophers who have had and still have great impact and influence on the modern west.

What ended the Golden Age of Islam is a complex subject and indeed a very interesting one as well. For some might even argue whether it has really ended!!

[Greatest I am]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Thanks for showing us the size of your mind.

Regards
DL

That is the most stupid argument I've ever heard!

Sorry I wanted to leave this, but when stupidity becomes so aloud I have to protest.

I did not present an argument.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

So how many muslims have tried to kill or convert you?

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Thanks for showing us the size of your mind.

Regards
DL

Pathetic cop-out. It's an obvious question to ask you as you seem to spend your entire existence quaking in fear of 'barbaric' muslims.

Not fear.

Disgust at how the population en mass have taken vile barbaric pricks as mainstream Gods.

My question to you is, why are you not disgusted?

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing
that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Do we owe Muslims another apology?

Who is "we"? I do not know the complete composition of this "we", but that you belong to it is a rational conclusion I can make, otherwise it would not be a "we" but a "they"!
I am of the belief that if anyone does something wrong to someone else, then they should at least seek to apologize when they come to realize their mistake. So if you feel you have done wrong to some Muslims, then if you feel like it you can seek their forgiveness. The Muslims are good people, they will forgive you if God wills, don't worry about it! Otherwise, if you have done nothing to the Muslims then there is no need for you to apologize. Everything is good.

If you listen to that song, you will know who the we is.

Some left leaning Muslims are good. But if you listen to those stats, you will see that the vast majority are not good.

If you do not agree, then your moral sense has been corrupted by your belief system.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Have you tested the ideology of Islam? Is it good to you?

Yes I have tested Islam.

Is it good to you?

Yes. It is the best thing out there. I have also tested all the other major religions before Islam. And by very very far, Islam is the best of all religions.

Now that is not just my opinion on the matter, but the overwhelming majority of the western scholars are of that opinion too. They say that if it was not for Islam and the Muslims, the West would still be plunged in the barbaric era of the Dark Ages for the West. For example, Nietzsche says that the West would still be grovelling in the dust if it was not for the Muslims. All the serious Western historians I have heard, acknowledge the great debt the West owes to the Muslims and Islam for helping them emerged from their barbaric and uncivilized society of the Dark Ages. In a nutshell, they are saying that it was Islam and the Muslims who taught the medieval uncivilized West: manners, science, culture and all the beautiful things we like in our modern world. Another example I can give is this site itself, i.e. Philosophy Now itself is of the opinion that our modern civilization undeniably has Islamic roots:

Europe in the centuries following the fall of the Roman Empire was not a happy place to be – at least for scholars. For the most part, the aristocracy, including kings, were illiterate and, to all intents and purposes, innumerate – applied mathematics in the West involved little more than tallying, which is a sophisticated form of counting on one’s fingers. The clergy, with few exceptions, were likewise poorly educated – most could neither read nor speak Latin, and even among those that could, abilities were generally low.

These mediocre standards were demonstrated with shocking clarity by the wide acceptance of the Donation of Constantine. This was a forged document produced by Pope Stephen III in 752 in order to impose papal authority over kings and bishops. It purported to show that the Emperor Constantine had bequeathed the Roman Empire to the successors of St Peter, the alleged first Bishop of Rome. European kings and bishops believed in the Donation even to the extent of the French king, Pepin, assisting Stephen in his fight with the Lombards, and later, in 1154, of almost everyone accepting Adrian IV’s word that Ireland was his, by papal right, to give to England. Such were the standards of scholarship at the time. The document was proved a forgery – an obvious forgery – in 1440, by Lorenzo Valla.

Thus the intellectual action in the latter half of the first millennium was not within Christendom. Instead, it was happening within Islam, a religion and culture founded by Mohammed (570-632); and it was happening everywhere the Muslim armies had conquered – stretching from southern Spain through north Africa, to the Middle East, Afghanistan, and northern India. This, the Islamic Renaissance, was the most staggering thing the West had seen since the days of Classical Greece, and in many ways it outshone them. It blazed from around 800 to about 1100, and it continued through to the 15th century. It happened in this way.

Reference: https://philosophynow.org/issues/23/It_ ... hat_Did_It

This is a great article written by Prof. Edward Ingram, and I highly recommend to anyone interested in history to read the whole article. It offers much information and it is also beautifully written. But if history does not interest you, then read it anyway; you will then develop an interest in history!

As Prof Edward Ingram says, in the medieval times in the West even the scholars, the aristocracy and the kings were illiterate and innumerate! From there it does not take much imagination to get the picture of how backward the West was before Islam and the Muslims gave them an education and taught them some manners. And more importantly (for our nostrils) the Muslims back then brought to the backward Westerners of the time the science of making soap!!!

There is something very interesting that Prof. Ingram remarked and says in that article, that I would like to comment on:

Although Islam was initially indifferent to learning, the situation soon changed. Around 750, under the influence of the Abbasid caliphs of Baghdad, Arab and other Islamic scholars discovered the works of the Greek philosophers. Then they devoured them, built libraries throughout their vast civilization, and sprinkled these with copies of all that was best of Greek thought. And they did the same with Babylonian, Syrian, Persian, even Chinese texts. They also built observatories, designed scientific instruments, erected mosques of unparalleled elegance, built hospitals, and staffed schools and universities with the finest minds they could find. The Caliph of Baghdad, Al-Mamum (813-877), was exemplary in this respect: he founded a school specifically for the purpose of translating ancient texts, and built a library to support it.

I have remarked that before I embraced Islam, I studied because, well, I was forced to by our modern society structure and my parents. And it was ok. But when I started studying Islam and reading the Holy Quran, I developed a true love and a real thirst for studying and philosophy and thinking in general. It was after I started to study Islam seriously (but not yet embraced) that I started to read Descartes, Hume, Kant, Lock and others. I was not aware of the great Islamic philosophers at that point in my life. That was about 15-16 years ago. Much later when I had already embraced Islam for many years, I came to know about Averroes, Al-Ghazzali, Avicenna, Al-Farabi and so many others. And then suddenly ALL those western philosophers whom I had once judged to be great minds ended up being mere blatant plagiarists of these great Muslim thinkers. Besides, it is for a very good reason that Ibn Rushd (the real Averroes) is called the father of modern philosophy in the West. A Muslim theologian and Jurist was Ibn Rushd and he is the father of modern philosophy!

But anyway, I did not make that relation back then, but in retrospect, it was definitely the reading of the Holy Quran that was at the origin of this drastic change in me. Allah, the Most Generous says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

O mankind! Verily there has come to you an instruction from your Lord and a healing for what is in your breasts and guidance and mercy for the believers. [ Holy Quran, 10:57]

And Allah, the Most Merciful says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

Whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while he is a believer [in Islamic monotheism], We will surely give him a good life, and We will surely pay them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.
So when you recite the Quran, seek refuge in Allah from Shaitaan(Satan), the accursed.
Indeed, he does not have any authority over those who believe and put their trust in their Lord.
His authority is only over those who take him as an ally and those who associate partners with Allah [Quran 16:97-100]

Some of you may not have heard a recitation of the Holy Quran in the original Arabic language. It is indeed very beautiful. I give some links below to palliate this deficiency in your knowledge if that be indeed the case! But first I have to highly recommend that the Holy Quran should be read, listened to and studied in a clean place, i.e. not in the bathroom or any of such kind of filthy places.

1. Al-Fatiha (chapter 1):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6r47L-8uf8
2. At-Teen(chapter 95):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK88FsJ3xQM
3. Al-'Asr (chapter 103): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5iElBopeyA
4. Al-Feel(chapter 105): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbi4cskPKqg


The question now, have you (i.e. anyone reading this) tested it?

Islam says that only God, the Almighty alone should be worshiped. God, the Almighty is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and anything in between. So, I think to myself: as God the Almighty created me and gave me so much when I was not and I had nothing before, then indeed He is the most worthy of my worship and no one or nothing else should be worshiped besides Him. That perfectly makes sense to me. Doesn’t that make sense to anyone else reading this?

You say that you have tested Islam and found it the best.

Is inequality between the genders good? Secular law says equality is better.

Is killing apostates good? Tell us why.

Is slavery good? That is what Allah demands. Full submission.

Let us test these together so that I might see why you think these good.

Regards
DL

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Thanks for showing us the size of your mind.

Regards
DL

Pathetic cop-out. It's an obvious question to ask you as you seem to spend your entire existence quaking in fear of 'barbaric' muslims.

Not fear.

Disgust at how the population en mass have taken vile barbaric pricks as mainstream Gods.

My question to you is, why are you not disgusted?

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing
that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

You should know by now that I'm hardly a religious apologist, but I hate lies, I hate genocide, and I hate what the US has done to the people of the ME because of its selfish oil-greed--(and we're all pretty-well fucked because of it).
Btw, have you noticed how pro-war 'Westerners' have become? Why do you think that would be?

[Greatest I am]

Pathetic cop-out. It's an obvious question to ask you as you seem to spend your entire existence quaking in fear of 'barbaric' muslims.

Not fear.

Disgust at how the population en mass have taken vile barbaric pricks as mainstream Gods.

My question to you is, why are you not disgusted?

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing
that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

You should know by now that I'm hardly a religious apologist, but I hate lies, I hate genocide, and I hate what the US has done to the people of the ME because of its selfish oil-greed--(and we're all pretty-well fucked because of it).
Btw, have you noticed how pro-war 'Westerners' have become? Why do you think that would be?

I would say that is because of the higher level of insecurity that has been climbing with every Muslim terrorist attack.

Trump and other right wing politicians has capitalized and perhaps increase that insecurity purposely.

You might have forgotten that almost every president of the U.S. elected from the end of WWII has declared war on someone To say that the level of war mongering is way above the status quo might be reading too much into what is.

Regards
DL

[QuantumT]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Thanks for showing us the size of your mind.

Regards
DL

That is the most stupid argument I've ever heard!

Sorry I wanted to leave this, but when stupidity becomes so aloud I have to protest.

I did not present an argument.

Regards
DL

Your did. Hate speech and xenophobia.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Why can the PC never present any argument that doesn't consist entirely of meaningless jargon-insults and buzzwords?
And why are they always such gigantic hypocrites? Classic 'Do/think as I say but not as I non-publicly do/think'.
Everyone is a hypocrite in some way or another, but the PC take it to a high art form (which is what makes them 'PC').

[Averroes]

If you do not agree, then your moral sense has been corrupted by your belief system.

I find that there are many logical fallacies with just this one single statement you made! I find it to be interesting that is why I am addressing it. For a start you make an appeal to fear that if I do not agree with you then there is a problem with my moral sense!
And now the more interesting part: how can I now assume that you have a good moral sense?! If my moral sense is wrong according to you, how can yours now be good from my point of view? If I judge your moral sense to be good, then your moral sense must not be good because my moral sense is, according to your very statement itself, corrupted. And now if I judge your moral sense to be bad then it is just not good from my point of view! This is somewhat akin to the liars paradox but not completely for the liars paradox gives rise to a divergent sequence of truth values while in the present case I can settle on the conclusion that your moral sense must be bad and by implication mine must be good, which makes it into a convergent sequence in mathematical jargon!

That is what Allah demands. Full submission.

With all due respect, that statement was incomplete. What Allah, the Most Merciful commands the Muslims is completely free submission to His Will. The word “Islam” itself means free submission to the Will of Allah, the Almighty. We submit our will to the Will of Allah, the Most Merciful by following what He prescribes for us and by refraining from what He forbids us. “Islam” also means peace. These different meanings of the word “Islam” is explained by the fact that when we submit our will freely to the Will of Allah, the All-Knowing then we get peace from Him. Indeed, Allah, the All-Wise says in the Holy Quran,

There is no compulsion in religion. Surely, the right path has become distinct from the wrong. Then whoever disbelieves in false deities and believes in Allah, he has grasped a firm handhold, which will never break. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. [Quran, interpretation of meaning 2:256]

And also, Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

And say, “The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills – let him believe and whoever wills – let him disbelieve.” Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a Fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like molten brass, which scald the faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place. [Quran 18:29]

Moreover, Allah, the Most Merciful has made Islam easy for the Muslims, and He has greatly favored the Muslims as well. Allah, the Most Generous says in the Quran:

And strive for Allah with the striving which is due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you any difficulty in the religion. (It is) the religion of your father Abraham. He named you Muslims before, and in this (Quran) that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over mankind. So establish prayer and give zakah (obligatory charity) and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector, an Excellent Protector and an Excellent Helper. [Quran 22:78]

Is killing apostates good? Tell us why.

This is a good question. Thank you for asking this.

What I understand from “an apostate” in Islam is someone who leaves Islam and starts causing corruption and public disorder in an Islamic country by going publicly against Islam after having given his/her allegiance to Islam. A person can only be declared as an apostate by a qualified Islamic judge in an Islamic court of law under the due process of the Islamic law in an Islamic country. So if I am understanding apostasy in Islam correctly, then it is like the breaking of a solemn oath that someone has made with his/her Creator, the Most Merciful and then such a person turned his/her back to Islam and publicly went intentionally (i.e. not by mistake or ignorance) against Islam. So in Islam, if my understanding is correct, the law is such that such a great treacherous act is punishable by death if someone is found guilty of it.

As you might already know, the majority of the world population do not like traitors, liars and betrayers. In the west as well there are such laws in different forms. One form of it is known as the law of treason. For example in the USA you have that law. In 1790, the Congress of the United States enacted that:

"If any person or persons, owing allegiance to the United States of America, shall levy war against them, or shall adhere to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States, or elsewhere, and shall be thereof convicted on confession in open Court, or on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act of the treason whereof he or they shall stand indicted, such person or persons shall be adjudged guilty of treason against the United States, and SHALL SUFFER DEATH; and that if any person or persons, having knowledge of the commission of any of the treasons aforesaid, shall conceal, and not, as soon as may be, disclose and make known the same to the President of the United States, or some one of the Judges thereof, or to the President or Governor of a particular State, or some one of the Judges or Justices thereof, such person or persons, on conviction, shall be adjudged guilty of misprision of treason, and shall be imprisoned not exceeding seven years, and fined not exceeding one thousand dollars.”
Site: https://www.nytimes.com/1861/01/25/arch ... tates.html

In the UK as well there are such laws. In the UK treason used to be the most serious offense met with great punishment. According to Wikipedia, in the past (e.g. in the 18th century), traitors were greatly tortured in the UK. From Wikipedia, it appears that there were a lot of corporal punishment. For example, Wikipedia says about that punishment in the UK: “A man would then be hanged by a noose around the neck, but not so as to die: there would be no "drop" to break the neck. Whilst still alive, he would be cut down and allowed to drop to the ground, stripped of his clothes, his genitals cut off, his viscera pulled out and burnt before his own eyes, and other organs would be torn out of his body. The body would be decapitated, and cut into four quarters. The body parts would be at the disposal of the Sovereign, and generally they would be gibbeted or publicly displayed as a warning. The body parts would be parboiled in salt and cumin seed: the salt to prevent putrefaction, and the cumin seed to prevent birds pecking at the flesh.”

But later according to Wikipedia, torture was abolished and the punishment was much lessened and traitors were just beheaded!
Nowadays, the situation in the UK is that capital punishment for treason has been abolished rather recently (1998). And now traitors if found are just given life imprisonment!
Further reading is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trea ... Punishment

Do you find anything wrong with these SECULAR laws on treason in the west? On my part, I usually don’t mess with the internal affairs of “free” countries. One great Islamic scholars wrote: Part of the perfection of one’s Islam is his leaving of that which does not concern him. So on my side I have no problem with these!

Concerning apostasy in Islam, my understanding on this is that in Islam we are required to fulfill our oaths and not break them. Furthermore, in Islam, Muslims are to act in such a way as to promote good conduct and order in society and not spread corruption and chaos in the land. So I am fine with the apostasy laws being administered by an Islamic court under the due process of the law in a country governed by the rule of the Islamic law. But here it is to be pointed out that in an Islamic country an apostate if found is given three days to repent and come back to Islam. In this time the apostate is given many opportunities by the scholars to resolve his/her doubts that have arisen in his mind about Islam and much support is given by those of knowledge to resolve those doubts. The apostate is then asked three times to repent and thus be saved from disgrace in this world and severe torment in the Hereafter. Indeed in the Hereafter the punishment will be tremendously much more worse than that suffered by the British traitors in the 18th to the 20th century, for those who died not believing in the Absolute Oneness of Allah, the Almighty. That is why the Muslims keep inviting people to Islam in spite of the harsh response of some people to their call, so that they can be saved on Judgement Day from this great calamity.

And now there is an interesting related question that I would like to ponder upon. Why would someone leave Islam? This is the mystery for me! As a matter of fact, Islam is actually the fastest growing religion in the world while all the other major religions are declining. There are many converts in the West who are living their lives happily as Muslims. There are lots of example I can give you. For a start let me take as example the second most prolific preacher in Islam in terms of propagation of the message and reaching out to non-Muslims in an effective way and who is himself a convert from Christianity, namely Yusuf Estes. In the following link he can be seen taking the shahada of a new convert to Islam:

Lucie converts to Islam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qTIWZcUCAo

And there are so many examples of people embracing Islam in the west. Let me give you some more examples.

Video published in 2011, 3000 new converts in Germany: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzIdhC_d9og
Scientist Professor Milan talks about Islam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IspK651RpY
American Mathematics Professor converts to Islam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2ZIgn1K7E4

And many people from other western countries are embracing Islam in great numbers. And there are also many converts from India, Japan, Korea and more. So from all these facts, it is clear to me that Islam is the place to be and many people are realizing this and embracing Islam making it the fastest growing religion in the world. And having been in Islam for many years and having tried most of the other religions before, I know for certain that there is nothing good outside Islam.

[Averroes]

Is inequality between the genders good? Secular law says equality is better.

This too is a very interesting subject. Thank you for raising this.

What is gender equality first of all? From Wikipedia, we are given a definition from UNICEF as follows: gender equality "means that women and men, and girls and boys, enjoy the same rights, resources, opportunities and protections. It does NOT require that girls and boys, or women and men, be the same, or that they be treated exactly alike."

In my understanding, “gender equality” is nowadays an effective marketing or electoral campaign slogan for politicians to attract more women voters to their cause. However, in practice “gender equality” is implemented by positively discriminating in favor of women so that they can have access to certain resources which would in a real egalitarian society not be available to them or difficultly so. Common examples are found in many sports. In tennis for example, in the Grand Slam tournaments, women just have to win the best of three sets to win a match while for men they have to win the best of five sets to win a match! And this is perfectly normal! We (human societies in general) do the same towards the children, the handicapped, the elders, the poor, the needy, and the refugees and travelers. I understand this concept from the Islamic concept of charity or the enjoining of good conduct. There is a beautiful hadith that I am remembering on this and it is as follows:

The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said: “Let one of you not consider any good to be insignificant. If he has nothing, then let him meet his brother with a smiling face. If you buy some meat or cook something in a pot, then increase its broth, and serve some of it to your neighbor.” [Jami at Tirmidhi 1833]

But now, women in particular are afforded special protection in Islam firstly because of their weaker physical and psychological make up in general, and also because of their importance in society as our mothers and the mothers of our children. Instead of the misnomer “gender equality”, I think it is more appropriate in Islam to talk about the “privileged status of women” in Muslim societies. In Islam women are to be treated with respect and dignity. The dress code and demeanor of the Muslim women in society in general is a telling witness to that. Many western women have been embracing Islam. Many of these women are very highly educated people. For example there is the British District Judge, Marilyn Mornington and also former British actress Emily Francois who is now doing her PhD at Oxford in some Islamic related field. And there are many others as well. And these women are now working hard to push forward the implementation of the Islamic law to the current situation of Muslim women in the west and worldwide. Because according to these women, among them some being legal international experts on the matter, the bad situation of many Muslim women nowadays is due to the neglect and non-implementation of Islamic prescriptions in relation to them. Judge Mornington addresses the subject in the following You Tube video. It is to be noted that Judge Mornington is a high calibre international expert in matters of family law and the likes. Interview of Judge Mornington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_BtZUBf7ac

Sadly, moreover, there are some western countries which are against the Muslim women’s choice of modesty in demeanor and dress code. For example in France about two years ago some women were not allowed to wear a garment called the “Burkini” on the public beach, even though they had explicitly expressed a desire to do so, because as I understand it the government policy was that that garment “covered too much of their body”! And these modest women were forced by the French police to undress publicly on the beach. The incident is on YouTube. Perceived “excess” fabric seemed to be against “gender equality” in France and elsewhere as well! You can Google “Burkini” to see what this fuss was all about.

There is also a prejudice in the west about the headscarf of Muslim women. And all this is very strange from a logical point of view because as I understand it, the west claims to be Christian. At least nominally it appears to be the case. And if we observe how the Christians nowadays depict Mary (may Allah be pleased with her) one cannot fail to observe that she is dressed like a Muslim woman! As a matter of fact Mary (may Allah be pleased with her), the mother of Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) is considered a Muslim in Islam and Allah, the All-Knowing describes her in the Holy Quran as the best of all women.

And when the Angels said, “O Maryam! (Mary) Indeed, Allah has chosen you and purified you and preferred you over the women of the worlds.”
“O Maryam! Be obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow down with those who bow down.” [Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning, 3:42-43]

So all this prejudice about the dress code of Muslim women in some western countries is very strange and contradictory to me. This is proof that women in general are not treated with respect and dignity in the West. Lindsay Lohan, who has been studying Islam seriously for some years, talks about this with Piers Morgan on Good Morning Britain from her own experience in the matter here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dzf_XE3zH8

Let us test these together so that I might see why you think these good.

Well, I would be happy to converse with you on Islam and answer your questions to the best of my limited abilities in general and my limited knowledge of Islam in particular; I am not a scholar. But anyway, that would not at all amount to you testing Islam! This is what you had asked in the OP! For you to test Islam as I have tested it, is for you to embrace Islam and then practice it to the best of your ability. That is what testing is about. Otherwise we are just discussing about Islam, which is fine with me. You quoted a verse from I presume (correct me if that be not the case) your Bible that says to test everything. I have put that verse into practice and tested most of the major religions and found Islam to be the best by very far. Have you tested Islam and hold fast to it as the Bible that you quoted advises you to do?

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

Reforms are being rejected by most Muslim sects out of fear and having to admit that their ideology is un-civilized.

The environment might force them to move more quickly as immigration increases and less land becomes livable.

I don't necessarily disagree, but that doesn't mean it's not making any impact or works as a better solution to the issue. Obviously, islamic apologetics by people who aren't islamic need to stop.

Well, I'm talking more about their position on the refugee crisis. I don't think it's the governments job to get involved in the way that Sam harris and Nawaz suggests.

I do not know what is being suggested, but I do know that we all have some biases against others not like us and that mass immigration, as has been shown, only creates ghettos that we have to suffer till the next generation assimilates or integrates into the culture.

Almost all people dislike integration and assimilation as can be shown by stats that show that they might work alongside another color but they/we will not befriend them in most cases. Look at any city and you can see how they are quartered by color.

Well it's just that Sam Harris in particular has suggested the idea of the US acting as a sort of sanctuary for these refugees. He isn't saying they don't need to be vetted, to be clear, but I think they need to go through the full process that any immigrant does because I don't want our government making such a message. Politically, I generally believe we should stay out of the affairs of nations that aren't our allies, and that includes immigration.

I don't know about that second thing. I haven't seen the stats you refer to, but there are more reasons that places tend to be divided than cultural and political disagreement.

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

That is the most stupid argument I've ever heard!

Sorry I wanted to leave this, but when stupidity becomes so aloud I have to protest.

That is the stupidest argument I've ever heard.