Do we owe Muslims another apology?

[Greatest I am]

Holy Mary mother of God, and that's probably the cream of American 'intelligentsia'.

You should aspire to such moral thinking.

Regards
DL

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Holy Mary mother of God, and that's probably the cream of American 'intelligentsia'.

You should aspire to such moral thinking.

Regards
DL

Like your's? BWHWAAAHAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Beheading is a Muslim pass time. Not a Western one.

So is throwing gays off of buildings.

Tell us. Does Islam have a reciprocity law? Do unto others, that type of rule.

Regards
DL

Electric chairs, gas chambers, and other 'humane' activities are American pastimes. Destroying other people's countries is another.

I speak of killing the innocent and you speak of killing the guilty.

That is not quite a moral equivalency. I guess you have to have morals to see the difference.

Regards
DL

Right. They have all been guilty because a jury of Americans said so.

[Lacewing]

True, but once diagnosed and offered a treatment, if the patient not only rejects the treatment but also defends the disease, well, fuck 'em.

Perhaps they're brainwashed and ignorant... as many people are in one capacity or another. Do you think that most people are of sound mind when their long-held beliefs are questioned? Are you? So is your solution: war against pretty much everyone?

[henry quirk]

If deluded folks keep to themselves, then they can squat in their insanities till hell freezes, for all I care.

But come to me demanding I observe their heathen worship?

Well, the civil thing to do is show them the error of their thinking (diagnose the disease) and offer treatment.

If treatment is rejected, and they don't wander off back to practicing their craziness in private, if they choose to export their delusions, well hell, lace, what's a body to do but condemn them and burn them where they stand?

You may be able to accomodate and compromise and find the mddle ground, but I can't, don't see why I should, and won't.

As I say: mind your own goddamned business, keep your friggin' hands to yourself, or else.

Go bow to Mecca, if you like...I won't.

[Greatest I am]

If deluded folks keep to themselves, then they can squat in their insanities till hell freezes, for all I care.

But come to me demanding I observe their heathen worship?

Well, the civil thing to do is show them the error of their thinking (diagnose the disease) and offer treatment.

If treatment is rejected, and they don't wander off back to practicing their craziness in private, if they choose to export their delusions, well hell, lace, what's a body to do but condemn them and burn them where they stand?

You may be able to accomodate and compromise and find the mddle ground, but I can't, don't see why I should, and won't.

As I say: mind your own goddamned business, keep your friggin' hands to yourself, or else.

Go bow to Mecca, if you like...I won't.

+ 1

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

True, but once diagnosed and offered a treatment, if the patient not only rejects the treatment but also defends the disease, well, fuck 'em.

Perhaps they're brainwashed and ignorant... as many people are in one capacity or another. Do you think that most people are of sound mind when their long-held beliefs are questioned? Are you? So is your solution: war against pretty much everyone?

I do not see our friend as embracing Inquisitions of Jihad.

Christianity and Islam have nothing else as they cannot argue for the immorality of their vile belief systems.

Regards
DL

[Averroes]

Beheading is a Muslim pass time. Not a Western one.

This reply of yours is very interesting in my point of view because I had mentioned two examples for you to comment on and you objected to only one of them as a “pass time” of the West, namely beheading. I had also mentioned “torture” but you did not follow through with an objection on that. Please, tell me, can this be interpreted as a tacit acknowledgment on your part that torture is indeed a ‘pass time’ of the West? For from the evidence available from the SECULAR OFFICIAL WESTERN AGENCIES themselves, it is clear and not even seriously objected by anyone that the West is not only a manufacturer of torture but also a leading exporter of it!

Manfred Nowak, United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture, said that numerous cases of torture ordered by U.S. officials and perpetrated by U.S. authorities are well documented:

• “We possess all the evidence which proves that the torture methods used in interrogation by the U.S. government were explicitly ordered by former U.S. defense minister Donald Rumsfeld...Obviously, these orders were given with the highest U.S. authorities' knowledge.”

From Wikipedia article Torture and the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_a ... _and_abuse

It is also reported that the US intelligence agencies are leading authorities in the field of torture nowadays. Their manuals are studied by aspiring torturers around the world, to whom the US agencies also offer special training and monetary assistance which is, as I understand it, like the equivalent of a scholarship in colleges and universities!

From Wikipedia we can read the following:

• "The Torture Manuals was a nickname for seven training manuals that had excerpts declassified to the public on September 20, 1996, by the Pentagon.
  One was the 1963 CIA document, KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation, which describes interrogation techniques, including, among other things, "coercive counterintelligence interrogation of resistant sources." The CIA techniques involved were used in the CIA's Phoenix Program in South Vietnam. Eventually the CIA’s psychological methods were spread worldwide through the U.S. Agency for International Development’s Public Safety program and U.S. Army Mobile Training Teams.
  Other manuals were prepared by the U.S. military and used between 1987 and 1991 for intelligence training courses at the U.S. Army School of the Americas (SOA). The manuals were also distributed by Special Forces Mobile Training teams to military personnel and intelligence schools in Colombia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Peru."

Further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_a ... ng_manuals

Some examples among so many others of the US agencies exporting their “expertise” in torture:

From Wikipedia:

• "American trainers and intelligence coordination officials supported the internal security apparatus of the regimes of South America's southern cone as those regimes carried out kidnappings, "disappearances", torture and assassinations during the 1970s and 1980s as part of Operation Condor. Similar support was provided to right-wing governments of Central America, particularly in the 1980s. Numerous participants in these abuses were trained by the U.S. Army School of the Americas. Americans were present as supervisors in the Mariona Prison in San Salvador, El Salvador, well known for a wide variety of forms of torture. One author, Jennifer Harbury, focussing on Central America, concluded that "A review of the materials leads relentlessly to just one conclusion: that the CIA and related U.S. intelligence agencies have since their inception engaged in the widespread practice of torture, either directly or through well-paid proxies."
  In 2014, a report by Brazil's National Truth Commission asserted that the United States government was involved in teaching torture techniques to the Brazilian military government of 1964-85."

Further reading here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_a ... e_Cold_War

Do you acknowledge those, please? Is it the type of secular morality that you think humanity should endorse? Because according to the official reports some of the US soldiers who are responsible for administering such treatment are having a hard time to cope with the psychological consequences! Indeed, the torture used by the US agencies is so severe that at least one case is reported of a US soldier responsible for administering them according to the “textbook” has committed suicide in order not to participate any further in these acts!
From Wikipedia: “The aversion of some military personnel forced to administer torture has been so strong, that one soldier, Alyssa Peterson, is believed to have committed suicide to avoid further participation.”

There is a short entry of Wikipedia on this US soldier which I think is worth a read. I found an interesting fact about this US soldier. According to a report into the investigation into her death: "We told her that you have to be able to turn on and off the interrogation mode -- that you act differently towards the people we meet with outside of the detainee facility," one fellow soldier stated. "She said that she did not know how to be two people; she ... could not be one person in the cage and another outside the wire." [Wikipedia]
____________________

Now to me this seems to be a continuation of past practices of the middle ages in the West. All these facts reminds me of the Crusaders. Particularly I am reminded of the cannibalism practiced by these savages, which we have come to know about by the writings of the Christian priests themselves who accompanied the crusade expeditions. For example,

Fulcher of Chartres (1059- d. after 1128) was a Christian priest who is said to have been a witnessed to the cannibalism of the crusaders wrote in his book, A History of the Expedition to Jerusalem,
“"I shudder to say that many of our men, terribly tormented by the madness of starvation, cut pieces of flesh from the buttocks of Saracens lying there dead. These pieces they cooked and ate, savagely devouring the flesh while it was insufficiently roasted."

Radulph of Caen (1080-d. after 1118), an eyewitness to events at Ma'arra in 1098, wrote, "In Ma'arra our troops boiled pagan adults in cooking-pots; they impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled."

Nietzsche is considered to be an important western philosopher nowadays and some even say he was a genius. Nietzsche has had something interesting to say about the Crusaders. And this is particularly relevant to our present discussion because in that same passage he also compares the West of 18-19th century CE to the Islamic civilization of the middle-ages.

• Nietzsche: "Christianity destroyed for us the whole harvest of ancient civilization, and later it also destroyed for us the whole harvest of Mohammedan civilization. The wonderful culture of the Moors in Spain, which was fundamentally nearer to us and appealed more to our senses and tastes than that of Rome and Greece, was trampled down (—I do not say by what sort of feet—) Why? Because it had to thank noble and manly instincts for its origin—because it said yes to life, even to the rare and refined luxuriousness of Moorish life!… The crusaders later made war on something before which it would have been more fitting for them to have grovelled in the dust—a civilization beside which even that of our nineteenth century seems very poor and very “senile.”—What they wanted, of course, was booty: the orient was rich…. Let us put aside our prejudices! The crusades were a higher form of piracy, nothing more! The German nobility, which is fundamentally a Viking nobility, was in its element there: the church knew only too well how the German nobility was to be won…. The German noble, always the “Swiss guard” of the church, always in the service of every bad instinct of the church—but well paid…. Consider the fact that it is precisely the aid of German swords and German blood and valour that has enabled the church to carry through its war to the death upon everything noble on earth! At this point a host of painful questions suggest themselves. The German nobility stands outside the history of the higher civilization: the reason is obvious…. Christianity, alcohol—the two great means of corruption…. Intrinsically there should be no more choice between Islam and Christianity than there is between an Arab and a Jew. The decision is already reached; nobody remains at liberty to choose here. Either a man is a Chandala or he is not…. “War to the knife with Rome! Peace and friendship with Islam!”: this was the feeling, this was the act, of that great free spirit, that genius among German emperors, Frederick II. What! must a German first be a genius, a free spirit, before he can feel decently? I can’t make out how a German could ever feel Christian….

So according to Nietzsche the Islamic civilization of the 14-15th century CE was far superior to the 19th century Western civilization, and given the choice between Islam and Christianity, he says, “The decision is already reached; nobody remains at liberty to choose here... ‘War to the knife with Rome! Peace and friendship with Islam.’” I agree with the “peace and friendship with Islam” part of Nietzsche’s analysis. I also think that it’s then no wonder why so many Americans and westerners in general are embracing Islam in such great numbers. Moreover, the second most prolific Islamic preacher nowadays is himself an American who converted to Islam from Christianity back in the 90s. His name is Yusuf Estes, someone for whom I have great respect.

Now, may I ask you please, what do you think of the analysis of Nietzsche? Of course, if you still do not want to comment on that, then I will understand. As I said before, there is no need to worry about it. If that be the case again, then I thank you for the exchange. It was interesting to get to know you better.

[Averroes]

Tell us. Does Islam have a reciprocity law? Do unto others, that type of rule.

This is a very good question. Thank you for asking that.

First of all, I will tell you the very basics of Islam. In Islam, a Muslim needs not only to do right actions, but it is also necessary that he/she be acting from the correct belief. One cannot do good in Islam by having a wrong belief about the fundamentals of the Islamic faith.

First and foremost, Muslims need not only to believe in Allah, the Almighty but also to have the correct belief about Allah, the Almighty. If one has the wrong belief about Allah, the Almighty then the faith is void. Who is Allah, the Almighty? The Holy Quran answers that question:

• In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
  1. Say, “He is Allah, the One.
  2. Allah, the Eternal, the Absolute.
  3. He begets not and He is not begotten.
  4. And there is none equivalent to Him.” [Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning, chapter 112]

Now, for example, if someone does not believe in Allah, the Almighty or he/she believes that Allah, the Almighty has begotten a son or daughter, then such a faith is void, and the person is not a Muslim. Nothing such a person does is counted as a good action.

Embracing Islam is easy, one has to utter sincerely the following statement in Arabic: “I bear witness that there is no deity (none truly to be worshiped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.”
In Arabic transliteration it is as follows: “ASH-HADU ANLA ELAHA ILLA-ALLAH WA ASH-HADU ANNA MOHAMMADAN RASUL-ALLAH”

The other pillars of faith are explained by Allah, the Almighty in the Holy Quran, for example in the following verse:

• It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the east or the west but righteous is he who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, and the Prophets and gives wealth in spite of love for it to the near relatives, the orphans, the needy, the wayfarer, and those who ask, and freeing the slaves; and who establishes prayer and gives zakah and he who fulfills the covenant when he makes it; and he who is patient in suffering, hardship, and periods of stress. Those are the ones who are true and it is those who are righteous. [Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning 2:177]

And also, Mohammad, the Prophet of Allah (Peace and blessing of Allah be upon him), said :
“The superstructure of Islam is raised on five (pillars) : testifying that there is no God (none truly to be worshipped) but Allah, and that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah, performing the prayer, paying the Zakah (poor-due), fasting the month of Ramadan, and performing Hajj.”

A Muslim must also believe in the Divine Decree, known as Qadar in Arabic. Qadar means that Allah has decreed everything that happens in the universe according to His prior knowledge and the dictates of His wisdom.

Now when these basics are in place, then I can reply to your question purposefully.

In Islam, Muslims are required to spread justice around them. Muslims are commanded to be just even if it is to be witnesses against themselves.

Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran:

• O you who believe! Be custodians of justice as witnesses to Allah, even if it is against yourselves or your parents or relatives whether rich or poor, for Allah is nearer to both of them. So do not follow the desires, lest you deviate (from doing justice). And if you distort (your testimony) or refrain (from giving it), then indeed, Allah is All-Aware of what you do. [Holy Quran , interpretation of meaning, 4:135]

We also read in the Holy Quran:

• Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you on account of religion and do not drive you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and justly with them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
  Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and drive you out of your homes and support (others) in your expulsion that you make them allies. And whoever makes them allies, then those are the wrongdoers [Holy Quran 60:8-9]

Muslims are also commanded to forgive others and enjoin what is good. Allah, the Most Merciful says in the Holy Quran:

• Hold to forgiveness, and enjoin what is good, and turn away from the ignorant. [Quran 7-199]

________________

[QuantumT]

(I took the liberty to delete text that was upsetting to logic and commen sense.
QuantumT)

You sound you actually believe what you have written (?!).

The fact that anyone can believe in those things, is fundamentally shaking my faith in mankind, and threatening my appetite and good mood.

[Averroes]

You sound you actually believe what you have written (?!).

So? What is it that you are having difficulty understanding? This is a public forum, which as I understand it the administrators are rather religious on freedom of conscience and expression to the limit of decency...though the latter limit is not even a stringent requirement either as far as I can judge! So are you implying that I should not be believing and expressing what I believe and deprive me of my fundamental human rights supposedly guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights under article 18 and 19 respectively? Please be clear on the matter for the way you seem to be heading does seem to be very dangerous! We are no longer in the western middle ages!

The fact that anyone can believe in those things, is fundamentally shaking my faith in mankind, and threatening my appetite and good mood.

Please do not start to make false allegations. I have never even addressed you a post before this one on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. I do not even know who you are. You are a complete stranger to me before this message. And I have never threatened anyone or his appetite or his mood on this forum or any other forum, so please do not make false allegations on me or what I have the freedom to believe and say! If you have a problem with your stomach or appetite then seek professional help with a medical practitioner or a nutritionist. If you have problems with your mood, then for that too there are professionals known as psychiatrists. I have nothing to do with your disorders.

But if you think you are apt to have an intellectual and civilized exchange without going into a hysterical lapse, then be brave and quote the things you want me to further clarify and elaborate upon. Otherwise, no one is forcing you to even read my posts if you are having psysiological or psychological episodes upon reading them.

[QuantumT]

*

You expressed your belief, and I expressed my feelings on how you presented it, but I did it in the least aggresive way possible.
Why did I do it? It was upsetting to read!

My need for professional/medical help is atleast as non existing, as you believe your need for it is.

Let's just agree that we are in two different universes (very far apart!), and leave it at that. No harm, no foul.

[Averroes]

Why did I do it? It was upsetting to read!

Then don't read it. If you have trouble with facts, you still have the option of fiction!

Let's just agree that we are in two different universes (very far apart!), and leave it at that. No harm, no foul.

I won't agree to anything with you unless you make it clear. What universe are you from? I don't know that, its all too vague for me to agree on such things! You don't seem to be stable. On me there is no harm done that is for sure!

[QuantumT]

Then don't read it. If you have trouble with facts, you still have the option of fiction!

Your socalled facts were presented in a very explicit way. Did not expect that here, from anyone.
You could have chosen to present it normally, in an everyday language, but you choose to use a correct islamic version, I suppose.
If you want to promote Islam, or build bridges, you're not helping yourself.

I won't agree to anything with you unless you make it clear. What universe are you from? I don't know that, its all too vague for me to agree on such things! You don't seem to be stable.

I am very stable. You just shocked me!
I am from the universe of science, in the galaxy of quantum mechanics. "Fact" is my god. I love him. I recommend him. He will never ask anything of you, and you can trust him - always!

On me there is no harm done that is for sure!

Great! All is fine then

[Averroes]

Then don't read it. If you have trouble with facts, you still have the option of fiction!

Your socalled facts were presented in a very explicit way. Did not expect that here, from anyone.
You could have chosen to present it normally, in an everyday language, but you choose to use a correct islamic version, I suppose.
If you want to promote Islam, or build bridges, you're not helping yourself.

Firstly, before you initiated a conversation with me, I was not addressing you. My post were addressed mostly to the author of this thread who intended this thread to be about Islam and Muslims.

Secondly, the author of this thread had asked specific questions on Islam in the OP to which I replied. Then he addressed further specific questions about Islam to me specifically, to which I again replied accordingly. You had nothing to expect from the exchange I was having with the author of this thread. It was none of your business whatsoever. Are free individuals obliged to act according to your expectations now? Who are you?

Thirdly, I choose the language that I want to express myself in, and as long as it fulfills the requirement of decency and being on topic there is nothing you can do about it. If you don't want to hear about Islam then why are you on a thread about Islam expressing your opinion on Islam? Have I impeded you from expressing your thoughts on Islam in the language and manner that you chose? So according to  you, is it that only you who can choose the language and the subject matter of your post and I cannot do the same?! What is this logic your are up to? You don't seem to be consistent in your undertaking.

Fourthly,  I do not need any advice from you on my religion or how to talk about it. I have no account to give you whatsoever about how I live my life in Islam. With me or without me, Islam will spread around the world. Allah, the Almighty does not need me or any other being that He created at all. We need Him.

Finally, if someone (whether it be you or someone else) asks me a question about Islam or any other topic and I know the answer, then I just share it, if Allah wills. And that's it. If you are not shocked by that, then indeed that is a good ending.