Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Greta
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Greta »

Reflex wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 9:43 am Really, Greta? :roll:

I'm beginning to suspect if secularists paid less attention words and more attention to their context and meaning, they wouldn't hyperventilate when someone calls MS-13 gangsters "animals" or says something esoteric like "to be fully human is to be more than human."
When man fails to discriminate the ends of his mortal striving, he finds himself functioning on the animal level of existence. He has failed to avail himself of the superior advantages of that material acumen, moral discrimination, and spiritual insight which are an integral part of his cosmic-mind endowment as a personal being.
But that is just Socrates's observation that an unexamined life is not worth living - something of which most people on philosophy forums are well aware. Why do you think I am here? I have burning questions of interest and, just like you, am frustrated at how few people want to speak about these things. As an analytical nerd, do you think I'm not frustrated with peoples' focus on the everyday and practical?

If theists spent more time reading others' posts rather than railroading them, they wouldn't hyperventilate about the straw man idea that non-believers lead unexamined lives. Note the number of unquestioning theists whose mindsets and conceptions are similarly limited and locked in to dogma as the atheists who cannot tolerate any lack of orthodoxy in laypersons.

Those leading unexamined lives are just as valid as human beings as those who think about existence. Some roles in society do not need existential examination. Not everyone needs to be a thinker. Rest assured, the doers are similarly contemptuous of thinkers for being useless and impractical. In truth, thinkers and doers need each other and ideally would value the others' qualities.
Reflex
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

... it is theists who are most unquestioningly locked into doctrine - into their "programming".
I can't imagine a more bigoted comment.
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Greta
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Greta »

Reflex wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 5:40 am
... it is theists who are most unquestioningly locked into doctrine - into their "programming".
I can't imagine a more bigoted comment.
I retract the comment, but not from your amusingly fey faux outrage :P. On second thoughts, I spoke too quickly because one does encounter atheists at times who are just as frustratingly locked into their paradigms as theists, just as reflexively aversive to deviations from the adopted orthodoxy.

It seems to me that many people enjoy locking themselves into firm positions regarding matters they can't possibly be sure about. My guess is that it's partly because they prefer the story being told and partly from the impulse to bond with like-minded others. This can easily create a groupthink situation, where as time goes on, positions ossify towards those held with the strongest personality or argument, and then breaking from the "party line" becomes increasingly difficult, ever more a threat to social bonds.

To be fair, it's not the worst life strategy to prefer to be loved than right. I don't do that personally for reasons I myself am not sure about, but I understand why people adopt that approach.
Nick_A
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta
It seems to me that many people enjoy locking themselves into firm positions regarding matters they can't possibly be sure about. My guess is that it's partly because they prefer the story being told and partly from the impulse to bond with like-minded others. This can easily create a groupthink situation, where as time goes on, positions ossify towards those held with the strongest personality or argument, and then breaking from the "party line" becomes increasingly difficult, ever more a threat to social bonds.
Your problem is that you’ve become locked into dogmatic denial. You cannot be open to what Simone Weil refers to as a supernatural part much less the vertical third dimension of thought. You leave yourself only two options: belief and denial. The value of being impartially open in matters of the human condition is ignored in favor of denial
Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY 1977) p 417
You will deny the potential reality of vertical consciousness. To make matters worse you join with others in their desire to destroy this natural attraction in the young in favor of dualistic secular dominance. There is nothing noble about this.
Reflex
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

Here is an article about denierism. It's not about this particular subject, but it is applicable.

It is hypocritical, I think, to advance reason and logic as saviors until they lead to something the denier doesn't like, where all of a sudden all the faith-trust in logic and reason melts into uncertainty in order to accuse those who do follow logic and reason to the bitter end of being "locked into doctrine."

Commitment to logical and reasonable conclusions does not lock out new information, making adjustments, or even a complete reassessment.
Mike Strand
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Mike Strand »

The concept of "God" exists in many forms, whether necessary or not, it seems to me. Socrates said that the beginning of wisdom is to define the terms of discourse. How might I define this concept, "God", in order to start a discussion that might be useful, if not necessary?

The concept that appeals to me is: "God" is a metaphor for "goodness", which may include other ideas, such as love, compassion, forgiveness, kindness, and respect. It is a concept of what are the best things about human beings. It doesn't have to be a concept of a supernatural, divine being or a super-intelligent alien that is manipulating earthlings.

It can be argued that human beings have an instinct, perhaps through evolution, to cooperate in order to survive as a species. Taken as a metaphor, then, "God" is an idea that can "save" human beings, in the sense of maximizing the probability of the survival of Homo sapiens by preventing the self-destruction of this species through human violence or careless use of the environment. This saving idea can be taken as the golden rule -- to treat oneself and others with kindness and respect.

The two greatest commandments depicted in the New Testament (to love God and to love neighbor) may be interpreted as: (1) to want to do what's good (i.e., the Golden Rule), and (2) to follow that rule.

Of course, Homo sapiens may still fail to survive due to events such as an incurable world-wide epidemic, or a massive asteroid hitting the earth, or the dying of the sun. But if human beings learn to work together on life-affirming activities, humanity might be better able to prevent human disease, detect and destroy threatening asteroids, or colonize other areas of the universe before the sun swallows up the earth.
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Greta
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:05 pm Greta
It seems to me that many people enjoy locking themselves into firm positions regarding matters they can't possibly be sure about. My guess is that it's partly because they prefer the story being told and partly from the impulse to bond with like-minded others. This can easily create a groupthink situation, where as time goes on, positions ossify towards those held with the strongest personality or argument, and then breaking from the "party line" becomes increasingly difficult, ever more a threat to social bonds.
Your problem is that you’ve become locked into dogmatic denial. You cannot be open to what Simone Weil refers to as a supernatural part much less the vertical third dimension of thought. You leave yourself only two options: belief and denial. The value of being impartially open in matters of the human condition is ignored in favor of denial
Nick, my problem is wasting too much time on forums speaking with low-thinking people like you. No one I know is more locked in and dogmatic than you are. It seems there are only two roles in dealing with you - as either your bitch or antagonist. Like most, I choose the latter because you are not here for exchange, only to preach a self-serving gospel. You are entirely incurious about others' ideas and the only questions you ask are rhetorical.

That cleared up, by all means preach to us heathens about this "supernatural part much less the vertical third dimension of thought" that I am apparently in denial about.

If you are referring to the states associated with peak experiences, I have already explained to you more than once that I've been lucky enough to enjoy them and that I consider attempts to repeat them to be akin to masturbation. I accept those heady states as gifts but prefer to live my life with feet on terra firma. There's not much time to be alive and seemingly plenty to be dead, so that's where my focus lies until there is reason to change it.
Nick_A
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 12:53 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:05 pm Greta
It seems to me that many people enjoy locking themselves into firm positions regarding matters they can't possibly be sure about. My guess is that it's partly because they prefer the story being told and partly from the impulse to bond with like-minded others. This can easily create a groupthink situation, where as time goes on, positions ossify towards those held with the strongest personality or argument, and then breaking from the "party line" becomes increasingly difficult, ever more a threat to social bonds.
Your problem is that you’ve become locked into dogmatic denial. You cannot be open to what Simone Weil refers to as a supernatural part much less the vertical third dimension of thought. You leave yourself only two options: belief and denial. The value of being impartially open in matters of the human condition is ignored in favor of denial
Nick, my problem is wasting too much time on forums speaking with low-thinking people like you. No one I know is more locked in and dogmatic than you are. It seems there are only two roles in dealing with you - as either your bitch or antagonist. Like most, I choose the latter because you are not here for exchange, only to preach a self-serving gospel. You are entirely incurious about others' ideas and the only questions you ask are rhetorical.

That cleared up, by all means preach to us heathens about this "supernatural part much less the vertical third dimension of thought" that I am apparently in denial about.

If you are referring to the states associated with peak experiences, I have already explained to you more than once that I've been lucky enough to enjoy them and that I consider attempts to repeat them to be akin to masturbation. I accept those heady states as gifts but prefer to live my life with feet on terra firma. There's not much time to be alive and seemingly plenty to be dead, so that's where my focus lies until there is reason to change it.
From Wikipedia
Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is habitually intolerant may constantly accuse other people of being intolerant. It incorporates blame shifting.

According to some research, the projection of one's unconscious qualities onto others is a common process in everyday life.
This is a perfect description of your reactions. You blame others for what you are guilty of. I don't know why you are burdened with this tendency but it really doesn't do you any good.

Read my last post in my thread "Human Intelligence." If you see what is meant by above and below the line the reason for the third vertical dimension of thought is obvious since the greater reality above the line cannot be experienced by our senses
Reflex
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

Greta wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 12:53 am I have already explained to you more than once that I've been lucky enough to enjoy them and that I consider attempts to repeat them to be akin to masturbation. I accept those heady states as gifts but prefer to live my life with feet on terra firma.
I agree. The surest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live faithfully every moment as a tadpole.
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Greta
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Greta »

Nick, you stole this notion of projection from me. Ever since I accused you of projecting, you have accused me of it numerous times - but never once before I pointed out your projecting self deception did you accuse me of projection.

I also shaped your language as regards secularists. For years on the other forum you spoke only of "atheists". It was only when I told you that I was not an atheist and so your insults didn't apply to me that you switched to "secularist". I remember being amused at the time. I think it was a matter of months before you got yourself banned.

I actually don't doubt this "higher" (or different state), I just don't believe that you have experienced it or much know what it is. Why do I think this? Because you never seem to take the wise option or the high road. Not once in years! The only times I've not seen you take the low road is when you are called out, after which you behave for a post or two before returning to BAU.

A person who is in touch with higher values would not behave as you do. Nor me, but I don't make such claims. You are more of a religious theorist. The tenets of the religion - love, compassion, empathy, understanding, appreciation of diversity and individuality - remain abstract to you, not much put into practice.

Don't direct me to this or that post, not to a reference, nor do a quote. Rather, you can either explain simply and clearly in your own words what you mean by the higher levels of consciousness, and without metaphor or vague prose, or you show yourself to be just parrotting Weil's and Needleman's words without comprehension.
Last edited by Greta on Mon May 28, 2018 7:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Greta
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Greta »

Reflex wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 4:02 am
Greta wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 12:53 am I have already explained to you more than once that I've been lucky enough to enjoy them and that I consider attempts to repeat them to be akin to masturbation. I accept those heady states as gifts but prefer to live my life with feet on terra firma.
I agree. The surest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live faithfully every moment as a tadpole.
Nice analogy - there's no harm in trying to be a good tadpole.

From memory, I learned about that cautious approach to metaphysics from Autobiography of a Yogi, where acolytes were warned against becoming enamoured with Siddhis (supernatural effects) and egotistical about their attainments and seeing themselves as superior to others. Again, from memory, Yogananda's guru Sri Yukteswar said that many mystics stop progressing at this point, locked into the pride of attainment and self-proclaimed superiority.

There is often a deep and calm humility in true masters in many fields, where they are more concerned with what they are doing than claiming superiority over others. Rather than wanting to be good/better/best, masters tend to simply be passionate about the field in itself rather than how they can benefit from it.

Richard Feynman's comments here is a good example of a master's singular egoless focus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEUcmKDaklY
Belinda
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Belinda »

Reflex wrote:
It is hypocritical, I think, to advance reason and logic as saviors until they lead to something the denier doesn't like, where all of a sudden all the faith-trust in logic and reason melts into uncertainty in order to accuse those who do follow logic and reason to the bitter end of being "locked into doctrine."
Few if any get the balance right between Dionysus and Apollo. However there is a point of balance in most affairs if only we can find it. It's our individual and societal responsibility to find this balance.
Reflex
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

Belinda wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 10:33 am Reflex wrote:
It is hypocritical, I think, to advance reason and logic as saviors until they lead to something the denier doesn't like, where all of a sudden all the faith-trust in logic and reason melts into uncertainty in order to accuse those who do follow logic and reason to the bitter end of being "locked into doctrine."
Few if any get the balance right between Dionysus and Apollo. However there is a point of balance in most affairs if only we can find it. It's our individual and societal responsibility to find this balance.
You used a word that I have long cherished: balance. I’ve discovered that there are at least seven absolutes we have to juggle in order to find it, and when we do, it’s like straddling a rickety old fence with a life of its own. I am still working out the details, but I call it “The Seven Faces of God.” I hope to post a summary within the next few days.
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Dubious »

Reflex wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 4:02 am The surest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live faithfully every moment as a tadpole.
...living faithfully is a technique theists have perfected so well that maybe they don't even need to become frogs.
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Necromancer »

Reflex wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 6:45 pm Here is an article about denierism. It's not about this particular subject, but it is applicable.

It is hypocritical, I think, to advance reason and logic as saviors until they lead to something the denier doesn't like, where all of a sudden all the faith-trust in logic and reason melts into uncertainty in order to accuse those who do follow logic and reason to the bitter end of being "locked into doctrine."

Commitment to logical and reasonable conclusions does not lock out new information, making adjustments, or even a complete reassessment.
That logic and reason don't take away the fact that getting home alive from the supermarket is a hypothesis, a prediction. Having this in mind, in a troubled world, even the Atheists are forced to having "non-scientific" thoughts in their heads in expecting the outcome of getting to the supermarket to pick up the dailies. This relates to fear, to death, to spurious thoughts of events to take place, even nicer thoughts relating to romance and what have you. And then finally, "new research reveals" the after-life, reincarnation, NDEs, OBEs, proving existence of souls that is usually taken to imply the existence of God, Atheists awaiting the answers for or being idiotically dishonest about.

There's more to the equation too. I expect there are events in the World being held away from the public that are the closest thing to proof by video that you can make, filming the very reincarnation taking place (usually by "criminal circumstances", but so be it) or other events.

Thus, religiously speaking, the concept of God is as necessary as any other, even "poking" (by fMRI) the Atheists will reveal some of the same strange thoughts as in religious people. Real? I think so, more than the morally blind, myopic Atheists who may generally speaking be on the wrong side of history, regardless.

:D
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