God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Nick_A
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God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Nick_A » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:01 pm

Do you believe the the origin of our awareness of higher values is God or Man? The religious mind will believe the source is God while the secular mind believes it is Man. Add an additional o to God and you have the Good or Plato’s conception of the source of forms. Simone Weil believes the source of higher values is this “reality outside space and time.” The secularist believes it is the result of trial and error. But what benefit is it for animal man to experience beauty, truth, and justice for example. These values can only be defined by what pleases us. The religious mind senses that these qualities have an objective origin which we can eventually become able to understand with help from above. So we have a basic opposition. Do you believe the source of higher values is the result of influnces descending from above which the essence of religion seeks to further or ascending from below by trial and error?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/weil.html
There is a reality outside the world, that is to say, outside space and time, outside man's mental universe, outside any sphere whatsoever that is accessible to human faculties.

Corresponding to this reality, at the centre of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world.

Another terrestrial manifestation of this reality lies in the absurd and insoluble contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.

Just as the reality of this world is the sole foundation of facts, so that other reality is the sole foundation of good.

That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.

Those minds whose attention and love are turned towards that reality are the sole intermediary through which good can descend from there and come among men……………………………………..

Science Fan
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Science Fan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:50 pm

I actually believe it is largely due to evolution.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:25 pm

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:50 pm
I actually believe it is largely due to evolution.
If that's so, nothing makes them "higher" values. They'd be very ordinary values, and entirely a matter of function or preference. We'd owe such "values" no allegiance at all.

What if I choose to "value," say, my own financial advantage, getting more chances to spread my DNA, or my own version of racial supremacy; and meanwhile, somebody else chooses to "value" charity, justice or mercy?

What makes any of those "higher"?

Nick_A
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Nick_A » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:31 pm

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:50 pm
I actually believe it is largely due to evolution.
How does man evolve from the bottom up to have the experience of beauty? How does the experience of beauty and what it indicates further the striving of natural man for life on earth?

We all experience selective animal love. We love some things or people and not others. Yet there is a higher form of love called the love of life itself which is contrary to the needs of animal man. Yet we know it exists. Do you believe that a quality unnecessary for natural man and the struggle for life can evolve naturally? What is the incentive?

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Dontaskme
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:58 am

Nice thread starter.

.


You have to devolve from love to evolve ..otherwise how would evolution know what it was evolving into?
How would it know it is/was energy loving itself?

Once evolved we devolve back into love we came from.



.

uwot
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by uwot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:49 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:01 pm
Add an additional o to God and you have the Good or Plato’s conception of the source of forms.
Well, that or Platoo.
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:01 pm
The religious mind senses that these qualities have an objective origin which we can eventually become able to understand with help from above.
Has anything resembling a fact ever wandered into your world? What sensory appendage do religious minds have that enables them to perceive this "objective origin"?

Nick_A
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Nick_A » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:00 pm

uwot wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:49 am
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:01 pm
Add an additional o to God and you have the Good or Plato’s conception of the source of forms.
Well, that or Platoo.
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:01 pm
The religious mind senses that these qualities have an objective origin which we can eventually become able to understand with help from above.
Has anything resembling a fact ever wandered into your world? What sensory appendage do religious minds have that enables them to perceive this "objective origin"?
The uncovered needs of the heart leading to the experience of intuition revealing the inner direction leading to the Source.

uwot
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by uwot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:35 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:00 pm
uwot wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:49 am
Has anything resembling a fact ever wandered into your world? What sensory appendage do religious minds have that enables them to perceive this "objective origin"?
The uncovered needs of the heart leading to the experience of intuition revealing the inner direction leading to the Source.
As far as I can tell, what you are saying is that religious minds are caused by needy hearts. When these needs are catered to, religious people have an experience which they will interpret as emanating from some "Source", which they discover by looking inwards.
If that is a fair rendition, could you go through it and point out which bits are facts, and who you know?

Nick_A
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Nick_A » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:51 pm

uwot wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:35 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:00 pm
uwot wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:49 am
Has anything resembling a fact ever wandered into your world? What sensory appendage do religious minds have that enables them to perceive this "objective origin"?
The uncovered needs of the heart leading to the experience of intuition revealing the inner direction leading to the Source.
As far as I can tell, what you are saying is that religious minds are caused by needy hearts. When these needs are catered to, religious people have an experience which they will interpret as emanating from some "Source", which they discover by looking inwards.
If that is a fair rendition, could you go through it and point out which bits are facts, and who you know?
No. Read my last post in the Relativity of Religion thread. The religious feeling described by Einstein leading us to the experience of meaning is what the heart opens to. You are concerned with idolatry and I am referring to an inner direction. They are completely different.

uwot
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by uwot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:16 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:51 pm
Read my last post in the Relativity of Religion thread. The religious feeling described by Einstein leading us to the experience of meaning is what the heart opens to.
I looked up the link and the book. I couldn't get any biography on William Hermanns and the quotes attributed to Einstein just don't sound like him. I reckon it's a work of fiction. Can you find any quotes from another source that support your view?
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:51 pm
You are concerned with idolatry...
What have I said that makes you think so?

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Greta
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Greta » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:59 pm

uwot wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:16 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:51 pm
You are concerned with idolatry...
What have I said that makes you think so?
He must have found your Papa Legba shrine!

I think this is about worshipping The Great Beast aka accepting science aka accepting the ideas of various geniuses that came before us that have been rigorously tested. Nick is part of the new anti-science wave and you will find an element of this is most of his posts. Science requires evidence and Nick refuses to be tested, so to speak.

I keep thinking that if the anti-science and anti-education people had had inspiring and interesting science teachers then they would have very different attitudes.

Their claims that science is a dead line of thinking (rather than exciting and alive) suggests to me that they had incurious parents who didn't giave interesting answers to their early childhood questions about existence. This may have been followed by passionless and dry science tuition from bored, underpaid, overworked and overly controlled teachers trying to pay the mortgage.

Nick_A
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Nick_A » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:53 am

Uwot
I looked up the link and the book. I couldn't get any biography on William Hermanns and the quotes attributed to Einstein just don't sound like him. I reckon it's a work of fiction. Can you find any quotes from another source that support your view? I’ve quoted simone Weil, Jacob Needleman, and Basarab nicolescu saying basically the same thing
How about this by Einstein which appeared in the NY Times. It may not read as you assume Einstein to be but he wrote it.
The development from a religion of fear to a moral religion is a great step in peoples lives. And yet, that primitive religions are based purely on fear and the religions of civilized peoples purely on morality is a prejudice against which we must be on guard. the truth is that all religions are a varying blend of both types, with this differentiation: that on the higher levels of social life the religion of morality predominates.

Common to all types is the anthropomorphic character of their conception of God. In general, only individuals of exceptional endowments, and exceptionally high-minded communities, rise to any considerable extent above this level. But there is a third stage of religious experience which belongs to all of them, even though it is rarely found in a pure form: I shall call it cosmic religious feeling. It is very difficult to elucidate this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it, especially as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it.

The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of thought. Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he want to experience the universe as a single significant whole. The beginnings of cosmic religious feeling already appear at an early stage of development, e.g., in many of the Psalms of David and in some of the Prophets. Buddhism, as we have learned especially from the wonderful writings of Schopenhauer, contains a much stronger element of this.

The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another.

How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.

-- Albert Einstein, Science and Religion, NY Times, November 9, 1930. <--
Nick_A wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:51 pm

You are concerned with idolatry...

What have I said that makes you think so?
You associate the idea of religion with a personal god which is really idolatry. You seem to deny that the essence of religion can refer to the Good as Plato described it or the ONE as Plotinus described it. You only concern yourself with idolatry while avoiding the deeper ideas in religion as they relate to the objective relative quality of human being in the context of universal meaning and purpose.

But you’re not as bad as Greta. Where Xena is the warrier princess, Greta is the queen of the ad homs.

I’m the one supporting the complimentary relationship between science and religion which is poison for her. Mentioning this relationship is like holding up a cross in the face of a vampire. They cannot tolerate it.

Simone Weil wrote:
I believe that one identical thought is to be found—expressed very precisely and with only slight differences of modality—in. . .Pythagoras, Plato, and the Greek Stoics. . .in the Upanishads, and the Bhagavad Gita; in the Chinese Taoist writings and. . .Buddhism. . .in the dogmas of the Christian faith and in the writings of the greatest Christian mystics. . .I believe that this thought is the truth, and that it today requires a modern and Western form of expression. That is to say, it should be expressed through the only approximately good thing we can call our own, namely science. This is all the less difficult because it is itself the origin of science. Simone Weil….Simone Pétrement, Simone Weil: A Life, Random House, 1976, p. 488
You may just growl at her observation but Greta will go into a rage condemning all in sight who may agree with her.

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Greta
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Greta » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:07 am

Nick_A wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:53 am
You associate the idea of religion with a personal god which is really idolatry. You seem to deny that the essence of religion can refer to the Good as Plato described it or the ONE as Plotinus described it. You only concern yourself with idolatry while avoiding the deeper ideas in religion as they relate to the objective relative quality of human being in the context of universal meaning and purpose.
Incorrect. That's not idolatory, rather it is conceptualising religion as idolatrous.

Nick_A wrote:But you’re not as bad as Greta. Where Xena is the warrier princess, Greta is the queen of the ad homs.
That's quite an ad hom for one who complains about ad homs. Your capacity to "rise above" is again on show, but you give me too much credit. You are the true queen of ad homs.

Nick_A wrote:You may just growl at her observation but Greta will go into a rage condemning all in sight who may agree with her.
Oh yes, I am very, very angry. Hell hath no fury etc. Gosh, I'm fired up. Oh, what am I supposed to be engaged about, by the way?

I do get angry at the increased prevalence of gas-guzzling, road hogging, vision reducing SUVs on Sydney's already crowded roads. I see them as selfish-mobiles. I'm also most at fossil fuel companies and the corrupt politicians in their pockets. I am especially angered by the bullying of the vulnerable and aggressive reactionary politicking (a subset of bullying).

But Simone? I don't agree with many of her ideas but she was an interesting and provocative thinker and a singular individual. I am not at all angry at her or Blavatsky or any of the theosophers or proto-theosophers. That's positive - they are thinking outside of the box.

However you, Nick, as an individual, selfishly preach endlessly, airily ignore most objections, and go the the jugular as soon as someone disagrees with you. When people fight back, you complain, hence my low opinion of you. It's not your ideology, it is you personally .

Nick_A
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Nick_A » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:49 am

Greta
However you, Nick, as an individual, selfishly preach endlessly, airily ignore most objections, and go the the jugular as soon as someone disagrees with you. When people fight back, you complain, hence my low opinion of you. It's not your ideology, it is you personally .
This is untrue but is to be expected if there is any truth in world history. I am just expressing and defending the same ideas introduced by Jesus and Socrrtes. These ideas got them killed. The World cannot tolerate them. It would be foolish of me to think that a site which includes many secularists would tolerate them. Greta you are reacting as would be expected under the circumstances. Whatever questions the supremacy of the values of the Great Beast simply cannot be tolerated.
"The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time the most intellectually resisted fact." Malcolm Muggeridge
The religious mind knows this while the secular mind denies it and blames human conflict on faulty education. It can be no surprise that the secular mind will condemn the religious mind since "the human condition is "the most intellectually resisted fact." The secular mind has this naive belief that it can be the source of higher values. It is oblivious of its limitations. Your attitude Greta is not surprising. Under the circumstances it is to be expected.

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Greta
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Re: God or Man: the Source of Higher Values

Post by Greta » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:19 am

Nick_A wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:49 am
Greta
However you, Nick, as an individual, selfishly preach endlessly, airily ignore most objections, and go the the jugular as soon as someone disagrees with you. When people fight back, you complain, hence my low opinion of you. It's not your ideology, it is you personally .
This is untrue but is to be expected if there is any truth in world history. I am just expressing and defending the same ideas introduced by Jesus and Socrrtes. These ideas got them killed. The World cannot tolerate them. It would be foolish of me to think that a site which includes many secularists would tolerate them. Greta you are reacting as would be expected under the circumstances. Whatever questions the supremacy of the values of the Great Beast simply cannot be tolerated.
I get along well with some theists, some of whom have called me names, but we worked it out. There is not much to criticise about your ideas because they are patchwork and formative, often unorganised and contradictory. I don't much care about them; I have other interests.

So Nick, I simply dislike you as a human being - no hard feelings, we can't like everyone. I cannot make this more clear. I don't hate you, just as I don't hate centipedes, Bobbit worms and snakes - I just find them rather revolting and would prefer that they not be near me.

Nick_A wrote:
"The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time the most intellectually resisted fact." Malcolm Muggeridge
That is just a misanthropic truism claimed to be fact without a skerrick of evidence or justification, a weak and invalid axiom based on the most jaundiced possible perspective. It's is what happens when one allows an analysis to be skewed by emotion - so the flawed analyst will believe that only the angles they focus on are real, in this case, Muggeridge's famous misanthropy.

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